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Dear Xavier</div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">"Is there a way we could get our hands on the documents of the new ISO standard, and share it with everyone on the List?"</span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">No. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">The ISO, like other Standards bodies, generates it's income from the sale of documents. They are priced on a per-page basis.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">When you buy a copy, it has your name on it. You are not allowed to make copies or post it on the Web. That is a condition of buying it. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">It has to be read together with many other documents: the definitions, the voluntary performance targets (which have to be purchased) and many external documents related to describing
or preparing and operating the specified equipment.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">The Standard is unusual in that it prescribes the equipment to be used, not just the measurements to be made and reported. This greatly raises the cost of performing a test, and
I believe reduces its accuracy. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">Those with access to the required documentation are free to comment on its merits and workings and publish them. Because it affects my work, I will be writing one and can share
it. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">The test method is novel, unpublished, and not tested by national structures. Its intent is to make an 'international comparison' between stoves on a common reporting platform.
As we are already aware, such comparisons are meaningless unless the context of use happens to coincide with the test sequence. The test sequence is 30 minutes of high power, 30 minutes of medium power, and 30 minutes of low power. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">The only group I know personally that tried to follow the protocol from the instructions was unable to get consistent results, largely because the ending of the measurement period(s)
is unclear. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">In a sense, it claims to be decontextualized, like the WBT or an EPA test, but also 'permits' what amounts to contextual tests, which was supposed to be covered by ISO 19867-2
which had clear guidelines on how to do that. It is very unlikely that document will ever see the light of day.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">We are therefore left with 19867-1 which pretty much let's you do what you want. It is very easy to cheat (apply bias) which we presume will typically by applied in favour of
one's own product. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">The VPT numbers in 19867-3, about which many concerns were raised before and after the ISO exercise, were produced using a highly dubious process, which in part explains why they
are in a separate document. I expect the numerical values will be challenged in the journals. One paper just published by Omar Masera and others already showed the targets are too low (for Mexico) by a factor of about 6. The actual exposure from the stove
was 6-10 times less than the WHO single box model predicts it will be. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">The implication is that a stove ISO-rated to be a Tier 2 is really a Tier 4 when it comes to the actual exposure the WHO says is going to be safe, or very low risk. Some Tier
3 stoves might actually be Tier 5. I will check that. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">The major point is that the VPT's were created to promote LPG and the basis for that was 'health protective exposure levels' for PM2.5. Now it it turns out that 'protective' levels
are achieved in typical kitchens with stoves having a far higher emission rate. I have been pointing out the bad math here for ages. And not only here. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">What do do? Let's discuss options. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">Regards </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif; font-size:11pt; line-height:initial">Crispin </span></div>
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<div class="">Xavier, Kirk and list</div>
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>see below</div>
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jul 26, 2018, at 2:53 PM, <<a href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com" class="">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com" class="">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
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<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">Dear Ron,</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">I don’t think the new ISO standard includes the WBT, I think you are the only person claiming that.</span></div>
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</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
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<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">[RWL: I guess you will trust what the South Africa group thinks on this subject. They failed in a fight to remove the WBT. </b></div>
<div><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span> I could send a copy of what has been approved - but that would violate the agreement I made to be part of the process. </b></div>
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</b></div>
<div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>I assure you that I have plenty of company - and it will appear soon. </b></div>
<div><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>What Nikhil has is possibly/probably 99% of the final.</b></div>
<div><b class=""><br class="">
</b>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
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<span class=""></span></div>
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<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">Until there exists reviews of the WBT protocol demonstrating it is valid, the « cites for inadequacy that are very old » (some are from 2016 and 2017) will be the only proofs there is.</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">« </span><b class="">[RWL3: Can you give cites on these three sentences? Maybe from some group that treats char as waste? »</b><span class=""></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">See the table from<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i class="">Riva and al., Fuzzy interval propagation of uncertainties in experimental analysis for</i></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<i class=""><span class="">improved and traditional three – Stone fire cookstoves</span></i><span class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>below, this is with the WBT:</span></div>
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<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class=""><span id="cid:image001.png@01D42533.69224380"><image001.png></span></span><span class=""></span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">Some of the stoves tested were « Micro-Gasifier Stoves with FAN »</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<b class=""><i class="">« [RWL4: I have - and I recall no statements about TLUDs or char-making. »</i></b></div>
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</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">RWL: I agree that the word micro-gasifier was there. They still were only arguing for more tests - that I still claim aren't worth the extra effort. Too much depends on the operator
of the test. But that is not sufficient reason to drop the test. Just be satisfied if you and other groups can get within a few percent.</b></div>
<div><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div><b class="">Ron</b></div>
<div><b class=""><br class="">
</b>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
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<b class=""><i class=""></i></b></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
See above.</div>
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<b class=""> </b></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<b class=""><i class="">« They want to do more testing to get an accuracy that is un-needed and wasteful of time and money. »</i></b></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
Only with the WBT I believe. I don’t think the CSI protocol needs more test sessions.</div>
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<span class="">Everyone,</span></div>
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<span class="">Is there a way we could get our hands on the documents of the new ISO standard, and share it with everyone on the List?</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">Could we crowdpay it for example, and leave it on a website or a server for everyone to see?</span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class=""> </span></div>
<div class="" style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:11pt; font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span class="">I think it is really a shame that the document is behind a paywall.</span></div>
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<span class=""> </span></div>
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<span class="">Best,</span></div>
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<span class=""><br class="">
Xavier</span></div>
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<span class=""> </span></div>
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<span class=""> </span></div>
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<b class="">De :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ronal W. Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<b class="">Envoyé :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>jeudi 26 juillet 2018 21:33<br class="">
<b class="">À :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>; Xavier Brandao <<a href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>>;
Kirk Harris <<a href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline">kgharris@sonic.net</a>><br class="">
<b class="">Objet :</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] TLUD stoves and tests</div>
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List, Xavier and Kirk</div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>The main item not being discussed below is the recently approved (with a huge majority by a lot of stove experts - after years of debate) new ISO test procedures.
To me this proves conclusively that the WBT is fine. Giving cites for inadequacy that are very old is no proof of anything.</div>
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On Jul 26, 2018, at 12:51 PM, <<a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline">xav.brandao@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline">xav.brandao@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
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Dear Kirk,</div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">“A well designed TLUD type stove will do well, whatever test it is given.”</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">RWL1: Kirk - I have to disagree. There are tests (especially one used in China) that treat char as waste - and so don't measure the produced char.
I guarantee that TLUDs will look bad on those tests.</b></div>
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Will it for sure? I have not tested nor seen tests of TLUD stoves myself, nor read that much about TLUD testing.</div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL2: I gave a cite yesterday to a paper by Jetter et al, that is on testing. Clearly the best performing stoves there were TLUDs and fan-powered (also
TLUD principles). To repeat - see</b></div>
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<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.648.7709%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ccd779a9e54f64b8b10ac08d5f420797b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636683342662918792&sdata=xPDuZa%2BQGPdp3mvZ5c57xRdrFZ%2BOUMqRCkfH4%2Bmts2I%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.648.7709&rep=rep1&type=pdf" shash="Fbocuh4Frt80ekbpOaCv55LyzhZHjV2pOJzBnYZGXolHYuWX/WACXhHrHp6nSn99i2nCJmOmOFUbZ8F6ER6fExjT8KYr8IQjBUvHvls+K7xrkd2DfbIpdGGuiDryExKSPk2rCC8cF/DVkLS2B8Uojphqy6fmb/cn44f9cva9B64=" class="" style="color:purple; text-decoration:underline">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.648.7709&rep=rep1&type=pdf</a><b class=""><br class="">
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">“A lesser performing type stove will accordingly do less well, whatever test it is given.”</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">No.</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">It might perform great sometimes with the WBT. Then terrible. Then great. Then quite ok.</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">Then it might perform great or terrible in the field.</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">There is too much variability and unreliability.</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">[RWL3: Can you give cites on these three sentences? Maybe from some group that treats char as waste?</b><br class="">
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<span lang="EN-US" class="">Have you read Fabio Riva and Francesco Lombardi papers?</span></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b class="">[RWL4: I have - and I recall no statements about TLUDs or char-making. They want to do more testing to get an accuracy that is un-needed and wasteful
of time and money.</b></div>
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<span class="apple-tab-span"><b class=""> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b class="">I'll stop here - to give time on the above.</b></div>
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<b class="">Ron</b></div>
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