<div dir="ltr">Dear Ron: <br><br>The proof is in the pudding - cooked at the right time and the right temperature. With the right ingredients and offering the taste that pleases the consumer. <br><br>Keep the faith. A cook may at last find a stove that makes the right pudding. <br><br>I have no disagreement whatsoever with the purported superiority of making charcoal - as a byproduct or a principal product, or even without cooking. I am even ready to sacrifice emission rates and fuel efficiency. <br><br>There are many an instances of international cooperation jumborees, some lasting decades. <br><br>Nikhil</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="georgia, serif">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>Nikhil Desai</font></div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><font face="georgia, serif"><br><i>Skype: nikhildesai888</i><br></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 12:40 AM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Nikhil:</div><div><br></div><div><span class="m_407046499650107053Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>You greatly underestimate the international degree of support for the TC285 effort. It is not a standard and was never meant to be - very unusual for ISO. TC285 is a continuing multi-country effort to come up with the best possible way to help advance (wood-burning) cookstove improvements. I believe it will do so - especially because it allows comparing stoves that intentionally make as much charcoal as one can with those that don't. Some existing stove standards deny that possibility. </div><div><span class="m_407046499650107053Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Countries that think it immoral to make charcoal in a cookstove have every right to keep on with their preferred standard. That doesn't mean that charcoal-making stoves won't appear in those countries - which seems likely because char-making stoves can have negative costs for cooking. The Tier system (supported by TC285) will help that progress along greatly (while sacrificing nothing on emissions and efficiency).</div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><div class="h5"><div><br></div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jul 27, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" target="_blank">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_407046499650107053Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir="ltr">Crispin: <br><br>
<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14.6667px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">"What do do? Let's discuss options. "</span>
<br><br>Short answer - walk away, and inspire others to do the same. <br><br>This is just the first deliverable. Let the other shoes drop. What is the schedule? What are the legal implications of not producing 19867-2? What is ISO thinking - it can take its own sweet time and produce or refuse to produce whatever the TC member feel like? <br><br>What TC-285 votes out means zilch until member countries accept it in toto. My recommendation after 19867-1 review was to withhold judgment on the TC's output until all the documents are in hand. <br><br>Then the question is, who is likely to adopt it in toto and what difference is it going to make? <br><br>Just because ISO floats some standard means not a squat. <br><br>1. I think back in 2010, BAMG produced a "clean cookstoves catalog" for GACC and recently we saw Jetter (et al.) 2018 results which had a list of more stoves. Is anybody bothering to get Tiers ranking from any local standards authority? In Kenya? India? Any of the other members of TC-285? <br><br>2. Who is offering money or credits? For what? <br><br>3. What's GACC role from now on? Are they likely to raise $100-200 m for more marketing surveys, enterprise finance funds, this and that? If not who is likely to do that? <br><br>I am not happy to conclude that GACC is dead; I would like to say "Long Live the GACC", though just outside the UNF circus and out of EPA's clutches. <br><br>Which brings me the last question: <br><br>4. Just who cares and why? <br><br>Monies are spent, papers are published, now national governments and oil, electricity companies will enjoy the marketing efforts of SE4All, and next to nothing is going to happen to biomass stove design and promotion until we get away from the mania of forests and climate, boiling water and smoking rings. <br><br>I repeat -- define a market, define a problem, and define somebody who is interested in managing the grant finance required to do real field work, not Geneva jaunts (which I understand were just virtual, and without payment). <br><br>Dead wood can be burnt until it rots. GACC and ISO will soon become dead wood. I guarantee it. <br><br>Saviors sought - from EU, BRICS. Something that can still be salvaged. <br><br>Or celebrate that GACC ended up in fire and as would TC-285. Let a phoenix rise from the ashes. I still can't understand how in the age of Tesla developing a small submarine to rescue Thai boys, and people discussing growth of insect protein, stovers are still messing with efficiencies and emission rates, despite Jetter's paper. <br><br>Nikhil<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="m_407046499650107053gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="georgia, serif">------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>------------<br>Nikhil Desai</font></div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><font face="georgia, serif"><br><i>Skype: nikhildesai888</i><br></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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Dear Xavier</div><span>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">"Is there a way we could get our hands on the documents of the new ISO standard, and share it with everyone on the List?"</span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">No. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">The ISO, like other Standards bodies, generates it's income from the sale of documents. They are priced on a per-page basis.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">When you buy a copy, it has your name on it. You are not allowed to make copies or post it on the Web. That is a condition of buying it. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">It has to be read together with many other documents: the definitions, the voluntary performance targets (which have to be purchased) and many external documents related to describing
or preparing and operating the specified equipment.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">The Standard is unusual in that it prescribes the equipment to be used, not just the measurements to be made and reported. This greatly raises the cost of performing a test, and
I believe reduces its accuracy. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">Those with access to the required documentation are free to comment on its merits and workings and publish them. Because it affects my work, I will be writing one and can share
it. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">The test method is novel, unpublished, and not tested by national structures. Its intent is to make an 'international comparison' between stoves on a common reporting platform.
As we are already aware, such comparisons are meaningless unless the context of use happens to coincide with the test sequence. The test sequence is 30 minutes of high power, 30 minutes of medium power, and 30 minutes of low power. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">The only group I know personally that tried to follow the protocol from the instructions was unable to get consistent results, largely because the ending of the measurement period(s)
is unclear. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">In a sense, it claims to be decontextualized, like the WBT or an EPA test, but also 'permits' what amounts to contextual tests, which was supposed to be covered by ISO 19867-2
which had clear guidelines on how to do that. It is very unlikely that document will ever see the light of day.</span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">We are therefore left with 19867-1 which pretty much let's you do what you want. It is very easy to cheat (apply bias) which we presume will typically by applied in favour of
one's own product. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">The VPT numbers in 19867-3, about which many concerns were raised before and after the ISO exercise, were produced using a highly dubious process, which in part explains why they
are in a separate document. I expect the numerical values will be challenged in the journals. One paper just published by Omar Masera and others already showed the targets are too low (for Mexico) by a factor of about 6. The actual exposure from the stove
was 6-10 times less than the WHO single box model predicts it will be. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">The implication is that a stove ISO-rated to be a Tier 2 is really a Tier 4 when it comes to the actual exposure the WHO says is going to be safe, or very low risk. Some Tier
3 stoves might actually be Tier 5. I will check that. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">The major point is that the VPT's were created to promote LPG and the basis for that was 'health protective exposure levels' for PM2.5. Now it it turns out that 'protective' levels
are achieved in typical kitchens with stoves having a far higher emission rate. I have been pointing out the bad math here for ages. And not only here. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">What do do? Let's discuss options. </span></div>
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">Regards </span></div><span class="m_407046499650107053HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
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<span style="font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt;line-height:initial">Crispin </span></div></font></span><div><div class="m_407046499650107053h5">
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<div>Xavier, Kirk and list</div>
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<div><span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>see below</div>
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<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On Jul 26, 2018, at 2:53 PM, <<a href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com" target="_blank">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com" target="_blank">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-interchange-newline">
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<span>Dear Ron,</span></div>
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<span> </span></div>
<div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">
<span>I don’t think the new ISO standard includes the WBT, I think you are the only person claiming that.</span></div>
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<span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span><b>[RWL: I guess you will trust what the South Africa group thinks on this subject. They failed in a fight to remove the WBT. </b></div>
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<div><b><span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span> I could send a copy of what has been approved - but that would violate the agreement I made to be part of the process. </b></div>
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<div><b><span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>I assure you that I have plenty of company - and it will appear soon. </b></div>
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<div><b><span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span>What Nikhil has is possibly/probably 99% of the final.</b></div>
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<span>Until there exists reviews of the WBT protocol demonstrating it is valid, the « cites for inadequacy that are very old » (some are from 2016 and 2017) will be the only proofs there is.</span></div>
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<span>« </span><b>[RWL3: Can you give cites on these three sentences? Maybe from some group that treats char as waste? »</b><span></span></div>
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<span>See the table from<span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Riva and al., Fuzzy interval propagation of uncertainties in experimental analysis for</i></span></div>
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<i><span>improved and traditional three – Stone fire cookstoves</span></i><span><span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-converted-space"> </span>below, this is with the WBT:</span></div>
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<span>Some of the stoves tested were « Micro-Gasifier Stoves with FAN »</span></div>
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<b><i>« [RWL4: I have - and I recall no statements about TLUDs or char-making. »</i></b></div>
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<span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"></span><b>RWL: I agree that the word micro-gasifier was there. They still were only arguing for more tests - that I still claim aren't worth the extra effort. Too much depends on the operator
of the test. But that is not sufficient reason to drop the test. Just be satisfied if you and other groups can get within a few percent.</b></div>
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<div><b>Ron</b></div>
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See above.</div>
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<b><i>« They want to do more testing to get an accuracy that is un-needed and wasteful of time and money. »</i></b></div>
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Only with the WBT I believe. I don’t think the CSI protocol needs more test sessions.</div>
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<span>Everyone,</span></div>
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<span>Is there a way we could get our hands on the documents of the new ISO standard, and share it with everyone on the List?</span></div>
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<span>Could we crowdpay it for example, and leave it on a website or a server for everyone to see?</span></div>
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<span>I think it is really a shame that the document is behind a paywall.</span></div>
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<span>Best,</span></div>
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Xavier</span></div>
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<b>De :</b><span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ronal W. Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<b>Envoyé :</b><span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-converted-space"> </span>jeudi 26 juillet 2018 21:33<br>
<b>À :</b><span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a>>; Xavier Brandao <<a href="mailto:xvr.brandao@gmail.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">xvr.brandao@gmail.com</a>>;
Kirk Harris <<a href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">kgharris@sonic.net</a>><br>
<b>Objet :</b><span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] TLUD stoves and tests</div>
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List, Xavier and Kirk</div>
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<span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>The main item not being discussed below is the recently approved (with a huge majority by a lot of stove experts - after years of debate) new ISO test procedures.
To me this proves conclusively that the WBT is fine. Giving cites for inadequacy that are very old is no proof of anything.</div>
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On Jul 26, 2018, at 12:51 PM, <<a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">xav.brandao@gmail.com</a>> <<a href="mailto:xav.brandao@gmail.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">xav.brandao@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
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Dear Kirk,</div>
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<span lang="EN-US">“A well designed TLUD type stove will do well, whatever test it is given.”</span></div>
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<span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b>RWL1: Kirk - I have to disagree. There are tests (especially one used in China) that treat char as waste - and so don't measure the produced char.
I guarantee that TLUDs will look bad on those tests.</b></div>
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Will it for sure? I have not tested nor seen tests of TLUD stoves myself, nor read that much about TLUD testing.</div>
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<span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b>[RWL2: I gave a cite yesterday to a paper by Jetter et al, that is on testing. Clearly the best performing stoves there were TLUDs and fan-powered (also
TLUD principles). To repeat - see</b></div>
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<a href="https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fciteseerx.ist.psu.edu%2Fviewdoc%2Fdownload%3Fdoi%3D10.1.1.648.7709%26rep%3Drep1%26type%3Dpdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7Ccd779a9e54f64b8b10ac08d5f420797b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636683342662918792&sdata=xPDuZa%2BQGPdp3mvZ5c57xRdrFZ%2BOUMqRCkfH4%2Bmts2I%3D&reserved=0" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/v<wbr>iewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.648<wbr>.7709&rep=rep1&type=pdf</a><b><br>
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<span lang="EN-US">“A lesser performing type stove will accordingly do less well, whatever test it is given.”</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">No.</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">It might perform great sometimes with the WBT. Then terrible. Then great. Then quite ok.</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">Then it might perform great or terrible in the field.</span></div>
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<span lang="EN-US">There is too much variability and unreliability.</span></div>
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<span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485apple-tab-span"><b> <span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b>[RWL3: Can you give cites on these three sentences? Maybe from some group that treats char as waste?</b><br>
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<span lang="EN-US">Have you read Fabio Riva and Francesco Lombardi papers?</span></div>
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<span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485apple-tab-span"> <span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b>[RWL4: I have - and I recall no statements about TLUDs or char-making. They want to do more testing to get an accuracy that is un-needed and wasteful
of time and money.</b></div>
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<span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485apple-tab-span"><b> <span class="m_407046499650107053m_-1767053935888018485Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b>I'll stop here - to give time on the above.</b></div>
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<b>Ron</b></div>
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