<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto">Dear Nikhil,<div><br></div><div>Many of us are ignorant of the basis of your harsh assessment of WHO estimate. </div><div><br></div><div>Can you be more helpful? Can you please point to articles, reports, or blogs, something countering the assessment that attributes 3 to 4 million annual premature deaths to exposure to biomass smoke?</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks. <br><br><div id="AppleMailSignature">-- Ashok<div>Sent from handheld. </div><div>Pls xcuse brvty and tpoys. </div></div><div><br>On Jul 29, 2018, at 9:57 AM, Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">Dear Ron:<br><br>Re: "<span style="font-size:12.8px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">There is no doubt that this important international stove facility at Berkeley believes in the importance of improving cookstoves for the millions of annual death reasons documented by WHO and others"<br><br>OH YES, there is ALL DOUBT, for anybody with time to examine WHO "documentation". Did you look?<br><br>Keep the faith. Gas is God. (At least when money is God.)<br><br>Nikhil</span></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="georgia, serif">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>Nikhil Desai</font></div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><font face="georgia, serif"><br><i>Skype: nikhildesai888</i><br></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>Prof.Gadgil et al</div><div><br></div><div> 1. Thanks for rapid weekend response. I have now listened to all ten of your short course videos and am much impressed. Not sure how they were funded - but thanks to the funders, you, and your lab staff. The only correction I would make is on the first video, where your name is spelled "Gagil".</div><div><span class="m_-2037614697689936873Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I urge list members to start with the second site below - <a href="https://cookstoves.lbl.gov/techtransfer/training-videos/" target="_blank">https://cookstoves.lbl.gov/<wbr>techtransfer/training-videos/</a>, which takes one through ten lessons averaging less than 10 minutes - in the proper order. All well done examples of how to get a message across. There is no attempt to dumb the problem down. One is left with the distinct impression that it is easy to do stove testing badly - but that it can be done well. I am left with the impression that despite this list's controversy over a water boiling test, it can be done well.</div><div>,</div><div><span class="m_-2037614697689936873Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>2. Dr. Gadgil's above "cookstoves" site is worth wandering around as well. I found this paper worth list discussion:</div><div><br></div><div>Article by Dr. Daniel Wilson (of the Gadgil lab)</div><div><a href="https://cookstoves.lbl.gov/wp-content/uploads/sites/18/2017/04/Clean-Cookstoves_Environmental-Science-and-Technology_-8_16.pdf" target="_blank">https://cookstoves.lbl.gov/wp-<wbr>content/uploads/sites/18/2017/<wbr>04/Clean-Cookstoves_<wbr>Environmental-Science-and-<wbr>Technology_-8_16.pdf</a></div><div><span class="m_-2037614697689936873Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>(listed, no fee, but didn't open for me at the Gadgil site).</div><div><br></div><div>Googling for other work by Dr. Wilson led me to this one (also co-authored by Dr. Gadgil) that deserves more dialog on this list</div><div><a href="https://ac.els-cdn.com/S2352728515300464/1-s2.0-S2352728515300464-main.pdf?_tid=8387ad03-9008-404a-8214-bed040be9b2b&acdnat=1532870411_077fc6eb5edeae7092b4a3579ca8e48d" target="_blank">https://ac.els-cdn.com/<wbr>S2352728515300464/1-s2.0-<wbr>S2352728515300464-main.pdf?_<wbr>tid=8387ad03-9008-404a-8214-<wbr>bed040be9b2b&acdnat=<wbr>1532870411_<wbr>077fc6eb5edeae7092b4a3579ca8e4<wbr>8d</a></div><div><br></div><div><span class="m_-2037614697689936873Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>This only a start - many more cites to look over.</div><div><br></div><div><span class="m_-2037614697689936873Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>3. There is no doubt that this important international stove facility at Berkeley believes in the importance of improving cookstoves for the millions of annual death reasons documented by WHO and others.</div><div><br></div><div><span class="m_-2037614697689936873Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Adding Dr. Gadgil to my yesterday afternoon's list was a last minute decision (only because he is from India) - and it worked out well. I heard Dr. Gadgil talk at an ETHOS meeting on his work for DoE or EPA a few years back - also very well done. I look forward to further understanding the type of good work that this lab (and others) are doing - likely especially also at TERI and IIT. </div><div><br></div><div><span class="m_-2037614697689936873Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Thanks again to Dr. Gadgil for opening up a huge new trove of stove discussion topics - especially on the GACC subjects of </div><span class=""><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div><table class="m_-2037614697689936873gmail-m_-5027599350820420570cookstovetable" style="box-sizing:border-box;border-spacing:0px;border-collapse:collapse;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);border:thin solid rgb(204,204,204);font-family:'Gotham SSm A','Gotham SSm B',sans-serif;font-size:15px"><tbody style="box-sizing:border-box"><tr style="box-sizing:border-box"><th style="box-sizing:border-box;padding:8px;text-align:center;font-family:Trocchi,serif;font-size:14px;font-weight:normal;border:thin solid rgb(204,204,204)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">Conflict of Interest Policy</span></th><th style="box-sizing:border-box;padding:8px;text-align:center;font-family:Trocchi,serif;font-size:14px;font-weight:normal;border:thin solid rgb(204,204,204)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">Quality Assurance<br><br></span></th></tr></tbody></table>.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Ron</div><div><div class="h5"><div><br></div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jul 28, 2018, at 5:51 PM, Ashok Gadgil <<a href="mailto:ajgadgil@lbl.gov" target="_blank">ajgadgil@lbl.gov</a>> wrote:</div><br class="m_-2037614697689936873Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi Ronal,</div><div><br></div><div>Here are my answers below to your two questions.</div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)"><br></span></div><div><div style="text-align:left"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)"><span class="m_-2037614697689936873gmail-m_-5027599350820420570Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Q1:
At the above site [<a href="http://cleancookstoves.org/technology-and-fuels/testing/centers.html" target="_blank"> http://cleancookstoves.org/<wbr>technology-and-fuels/testing/<wbr>centers.html</a> ] , I see many of the test centers show bullets in
the two right-hand columns that your three groups do not have showing
you are adhering to policies labeled: </span></div><table class="m_-2037614697689936873gmail-m_-5027599350820420570cookstovetable" style="box-sizing:border-box;border-spacing:0px;border-collapse:collapse;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);border:thin solid rgb(204,204,204);font-family:"Gotham SSm A","Gotham SSm B",sans-serif;font-size:15px"><tbody style="box-sizing:border-box"><tr style="box-sizing:border-box"><th style="box-sizing:border-box;padding:8px;text-align:center;font-family:Trocchi,serif;font-size:14px;font-weight:normal;border:thin solid rgb(204,204,204)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">Conflict of Interest Policy</span></th><th style="box-sizing:border-box;padding:8px;text-align:center;font-family:Trocchi,serif;font-size:14px;font-weight:normal;border:thin solid rgb(204,204,204)"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">Quality Assurance</span></th></tr></tbody></table><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">. Do you now have such policies? Does it make a difference in how we should be looking for help?</span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Answer 1: Yes we have had a written Quality Assurance Policy in place, and strictly enforced, for many years. We even have a training video (freely available to anyone) posted on our website about how to develop a QA policy. We just completed training several stove testing professionals in Uganda about how to commission and operate a high quality stove testing lab. Please see the video below. <br></div><div><br></div><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=44&v=_2qhR2KtlCQ" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?<wbr>time_continue=44&v=_2qhR2KtlCQ</a><br><div><br></div><div>All videos can be accessed here, and all are also posted on YouTube:<br></div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://cookstoves.lbl.gov/techtransfer/training-videos/" target="_blank">https://cookstoves.lbl.gov/<wbr>techtransfer/training-videos/</a><br></div><div><br></div><div>It should be embarrassing to the GACC that they have left a blank against our name about QA. They never asked us!! <br></div><div>Yes, we do have QA and Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) policies in writing, and you can even see the folder in the above video.</div><div><br></div><div>For Conflict of Interest (COI), we will respond (if we were only asked!) a YES. We are part of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, operated by the University of California for the US Department of Energy. We have COI policies and training that is required of every employee, and that training is enforced with refresher courses. We also have an internal whistle-blower policy in case anyone spots a COI policy violation.</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, yes, it is very important that you should work only with those who can answer YES to the above two questions. However, as our own example show, the GACC is an unreliable indicator to assess whether these policies are in place. These policies are in place at our lab for many years, but because GACC never asked, they show only blanks in the row related to our lab on the GACC website above.<br></div><div><br></div><div><div><br></div><div><span class="m_-2037614697689936873gmail-m_-5027599350820420570Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">Q2: Can your groups help with gratis stove testing? This thread is about a project using Chervals stoves from Chennai. <br></span></div><div><br></div><div>Answer 2. No, we can not undertake gratis stove testing. We do not even undertake paid stove testing unless there is a research purpose.</div><div><br></div><div>kind regards,</div><div><br></div><div>-- Ashok Gadgil<br></div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div class="m_-2037614697689936873gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><br>____________<br><div><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">Ashok Gadgil</span><br style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)"><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">Faculty Senior Scientist</span><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">, Energy Technologies Area <br>Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory</span><br style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)"><br style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)"><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">Andrew and Virginia Rudd Family Foundation</span><br style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)"><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">Distinguished Chair of Safe Water and Sanitation</span><br style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)"><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">Professor of Civil and Environmental Engineering</span><br style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)"><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">University of California, Berkeley</span><br><br><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">Member, National Academy of Engineering</span><br style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)"><br style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)"><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">LBNL Mailstop 90R-3029B, </span><br style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)"><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">1 Cyclotron Road, Berkeley, CA 94720-8132</span><br style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)"><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">Phone: +(1)-510-486-4651, Fax: +(1)-510-486-5454</span><br><br><a href="https://eta.lbl.gov/people/ashok-gadgil" target="_blank">https://eta.lbl.gov/people/<wbr>ashok-gadgil</a><br><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">------------------------------</span><wbr>-</div><div><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">------------------------------<wbr>-</span><br style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)"><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">Assistant: Deke Dun</span><br style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)"><span style="COLOR:rgb(102,102,102)">Email:</span> <a href="mailto:dekedun@berkeley.edu" target="_blank">dekedun@berkeley.edu</a><br></div><div><span style="color:rgb(102,102,102)">Mobile: +1 202-812-0502</span><br></div><div>------------------------------<wbr>--</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Jul 28, 2018 at 3:18 PM, Ronal W. Larson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>List et al, adding leaders of two stove test centers in India, one well known Indian stove leader living in the US (who has helped test TLUDs already), and an Indian friend well known for interest in this general topic (on the board of Solar Cookers International)</div><div><br></div><div><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I concur with all below by Tom, Sujatha, etc. I write to see if we can get some help for Paul Anderson and his char-making stove project in northern India. (enough details hopefully below)</div><div><br></div><div style="text-align:left"><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Googling this site <a href="http://cleancookstoves.org/technology-and-fuels/testing/centers.html" target="_blank">http://cleancookstoves.or<wbr>g/technology-and-fuels/testing<wbr>/centers.html</a>, I see there are now 48 certified (?) stove test centers worldwide. I include the two in India headed by Rajendra Prasad (IIT) and Perusal Raman (TERI), as well as Dr. Gadgil (UC-Berkeley)</div><div style="text-align:left"><br></div><div style="text-align:left"><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Q1: At the above site, I see many of the test centers show bullets in the two right-hand columns that your three groups do not have showing you are adhering to policies labeled: </div><table class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570cookstovetable" style="box-sizing:border-box;border-spacing:0px;border-collapse:collapse;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);border:thin solid rgb(204,204,204);color:rgb(97,97,97);font-family:'Gotham SSm A','Gotham SSm B',sans-serif;font-size:15px"><tbody style="box-sizing:border-box"><tr style="box-sizing:border-box"><th style="box-sizing:border-box;padding:8px;text-align:center;font-family:Trocchi,serif;font-size:14px;font-weight:normal;border:thin solid rgb(204,204,204)">Conflict of Interest Policy</th><th style="box-sizing:border-box;padding:8px;text-align:center;font-family:Trocchi,serif;font-size:14px;font-weight:normal;border:thin solid rgb(204,204,204)">Quality Assurance</th></tr></tbody></table>. Do you now have such policies? Does it make a difference in how we should be looking for help?<div><br></div><div><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Q2: Can your groups help with gratis stove testing? This thread is about a project using Chervals stoves from Chennai. From my perspective, this is a very important project as:</div><div><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>1) the stove users are saving considerably on their costs of cooking (in a slightly different model, maybe making money)</div><div><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>2) I believe their new stoves are high Tier in all respects (maybe highest in India)</div><div><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>3) if the produced char is used as biochar, they are carbon negative - important for India especially, as a country that will especially suffer from global warming<br><div><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>4) a quick gratis stove test could help greatly in expanding this effort - led by Dr. Anderson.</div><div><br></div><div></div><div>Ron</div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Jul 28, 2018, at 9:14 AM, <a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target="_blank">tmiles@trmiles.com</a> wrote:</div><br class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-interchange-newline"><div><div class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570WordSection1" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Sujatha,<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Thank you for your very interesting and helpful perspective. Your view is an aspect of monitoring and evaluation that we don’t often hear from these programs.<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">When payments for carbon end it seem to me that the 31,000 TLUD owners have various options. If the stoves are still serviceable they can: burn the char for cooking; use the char as biochar; sell the char to others for cooking or for biochar; or, abandon the TLUD and use another device. Their choices will depend on individual circumstances but, if incentives to use LPG or gas were not available, would you expect a large number to continue to use the TLUD? Who would continue to use the TLUD and who would move to other stoves?<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Many thanks<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Tom<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Stoves List Owner <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenerg<wbr>ylists.org</a>><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Sujatha Srinivasan<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, July 27, 2018 11:10 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span>Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br><b>Cc:</b><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:ndesai@alum.mit.edu" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">ndesai@alum.mit.edu</a>; Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>>; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a>><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Stove types and poverty [Was Rogerio: Pro-publicaarticle out]<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt">Dear members of the group,<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt">Greetings. I speak here now, because I was “asked” along with Sujay on the cc by Nikhil.:)) Please know that although silent mostly, my team and I read most of the messages, and also take the liberty to “pass along” what we believe is relevant to the people in our cookstove eco-system. So thank you for your discussions.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt">I have the following points to ‘contribute’ to the discussion, based on what I am understanding from the email thread. But before that, a quick ‘setting of expectations’ - I do not have direct access to “primary data” from the Deganga project. My responses are based on the data submitted to me in my role as the “attester” for the project. 31,000 TLUDs is what has been submitted to me as the number of stoves deployed. Not 40,000.<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></div><p class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570gmail-msolistparagraph" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.25in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt">I think there are many things that made the TLUD “click” in the Deganga project – and at this point, in my opinion, none can be singled out as “key”. Unless someone funds a scientifically designed field research and does a “regression analysis” on the “satisfaction levels with the stove”. Until then, it can be a debate of perspectives – with some saying that it is only because of the stove, with some saying its only because of the carbon funding, with some saying its only because of the stove-char market which puts money in the hands of the household.<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570gmail-msolistparagraph" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.75in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">o</span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt">Unless there is a project where users are paying the full price for the stove, it would be difficult to assess what really drives the “favoring of the TLUD stove” or any stove for that matter. In any project for that matter.<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570gmail-msolistparagraph" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.75in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">o</span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt">I also think that the “key drivers of purchase” for any stove – will change with scale and duration of the project. Since user expectations are a moving target… so the results of any study that attempts to understand factors that “favour the stove” from users, in my opinion, may be more interesting for the “direct project stakeholders” as an input to manage user expectations or to establish that the “right” stove was chosen. But such studies could also run the risk of spotlighting one part of the solution and trying to extrapolate based on that.<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570gmail-msolistparagraph" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.25in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt">Testing of stoves, the way it is discussed in the groups, seems largely focused on “first time testing till a stove model is chosen for a project”.<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570gmail-msolistparagraph" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.75in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">o</span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt">Once the choice is made, the commercials are locked and in a way “closes” out adding further improvements to the stove or closes out debates on how the stove was tested and how good the testing was.<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570gmail-msolistparagraph" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.75in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">o</span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt">It would be equally important to have a set of guidelines to ensure that the production practices of the vendors support consistency in quality to the stove submitted for testing. Who does this verification? And how robust is it? Is it largely left to the governance systems of the funder or the business ethics of the vendor or the “market’s ability to observe and escalate?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570gmail-msolistparagraph" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.75in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">o</span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt">Large projects do not always think like how Dr. Paul Anderson thinks, when he wrote – “</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">If I were to conduct or have a hand in such testing, the results could be questioned.”. They should be.</span><span style="font-size:10pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570gmail-msolistparagraph" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.25in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt">To Nikhil’s references on procurement and bureaucracy, particularly for large projects, it is inherently in the nature of such large projects to have a stronger business/commercial angle to it, that might have the fall-out of creating entry barriers and tentative information sharing, for other potential contributors – whether in terms of technology or financial solutions. In most cases, most of the “non-product” process are set up fairly rigidly, at the outset, dictated by project feasibility (not exactly wrong either). The net effect, in my opinion being, a large project that has higher potential to benefit the deserving, can get “closed” to positive contributions from others.<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570gmail-msolistparagraph" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.25in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Symbol">·</span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt">Which, as I see it realistically, perhaps opens up opportunities to attract “specific” funding rather than just scale funding<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570gmail-msolistparagraph" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.75in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">o</span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt">I would think that the best way to attract funding for such large scale projects – is to bring forward proposals that represent positive contributions to the project – but are not covered in the original commercials. For instance - adding technical improvements to the stove or improving the stove eco-system based on scale to sustain stove usage.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570gmail-msolistparagraph" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.75in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">o</span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt">But then a reasonable hypothesis would be that this will again come back to the inherent nature of large projects to being bureaucratic and “closed” to such lateral entries.<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570gmail-msolistparagraph" style="margin-right:0in;margin-left:0.75in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;margin-bottom:0.0001pt;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:'Courier New'">o</span><span style="font-size:7pt;font-family:'Times New Roman',serif"> <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size:10pt">In fact, it might actually require a high level of maturity by the project stakeholders to open the project up for others to be able to identify such niches – which means opening up the project to field studies by others.<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></p><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt">Thank you for the “space” to make my comments. I’m sure these are not entirely new to you.<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt">Kind Regards<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;text-align:justify"><span style="font-size:10pt">Sujatha<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u> <u></u></div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 3:04 AM, Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in" type="cite"><div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Nikhil,<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Directly answering your questions:<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">1. No. I do not have funds for stove testing for TLUD stoves.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">2. Surprise response: For MY work, I am not seeking funding for testing of TLUD stoves. Not small grants, not large grants. That is not utilizing my strengths. And If I were to conduct or have a hand in such testing, the results could be questioned.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">So, AN OFFER. Anyone who has the funds and ability to test the TLUD stoves as they are being so successfully in use in West Bengal will have my full support and assistance to facilitate the necessary arrangements. I can be an adviser, or left off of the list. <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Yes, such testing needs to be done. But my work is on expanding what is being continually shown to be working well with TLUD stoves in West Bengal. (Funding would greatly help.)<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Paul<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Email: <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">psanders@ilstu.edu</span></a> <wbr> Skype: paultlud<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;border-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt"><div><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><b>From:</b><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, July 26, 2018 3:15 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span>Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br><b>Cc:</b><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.o<wbr>rg</a>>; Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>>; Sujoy Chaudhury <<a href="mailto:sujoy.chaudhury@gmail.com" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">sujoy.chaudhury@gmail.com</a>>; Sujatha Srinivasan <<a href="mailto:sujatha@servals.in" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">sujatha@servals.in</a>><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Stove types and poverty [Was Rogerio: Pro-publicaarticle out]<u></u><u></u></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Paul: <br><br>Do you have the money to conduct in-field research on TLUD gasifiers' emission rates and the impact on indoor air concentrations as well as associated (caused or not) changes in disease incidence by age and sex? <br><br>Say, for about three locations varying in biomass fuel types and quality, cooking practices, and weather/season conditions, with or without chimneys? <br><br>If so, someone can propose to use HAPIT for two weeks at a time, six month intervals over three years, and certify aDALYs that you can then market at the rate of three times the per capita income. <br><br>This would take about two person-years of US/EU-level consulting, and 20 person-years of India/Mexico-level consulting, plus travel and expenses, at about $1.2 million. There has to be at least one "international" investigator with enough say-so to publish in Lancet or Science, or some Elsevier journal. <br><br>If you have $10 m, you will likely get results favorable to you, or at least not disfavorable to you. <u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:Georgia,serif"> <br></span>Or you could take Kirk Smith's mania for what it is - nothing. <br><br>I just wrote an off-list response where you were cc'd. Kirk Smith's faith in "Mind the Gap" is unwarranted, simply because the supposed "non-linearity of exposure-response at the lower levels of exposures" is not based on any relevant data. It borrows spotty - and disputed - literature on active and passive smoking, outdoor air pollution, for radically different cohorts over radically different air quality situations. It assumes that everybody has the same confounding factors - health conditions, genetic stock, access to and availability of health care and medicine - everywhere in the world and any time, independent of the duration of the exposure. <br><br>You can ignore the deceit that is in computations of premature deaths and DALYs. What matters for HAPIT is simply the change in PM2.5 concentrations, the assumptions behind which are unfounded and ludicrous, to say the least. <br><br>I had a short critique of HAPIT last October, and sent it to Gold Standard, GACC (Sumi) and Kirk Smith, Ajay Pillarisetti. I posted a summary on this list. You may get the full critique from them; <br><br>It is not just a critique of HAPIT; implicitly it is an attempt to deconstruct the whole ideology of "emission rates are damages". <br><br>Now, back to what should be done differently. <br><br>1. Junk the notion of "safe" emission rates. What matters for "health" is significant reduction in the dosage of pollutants implicated in disease causation chain. Prof. Smith can go on ad absurdum about "associations" of this and that with PM2.5 levels, but, apart from blind faith in "the Gap" and IER, he has no business making any judgments about relative emission rates. (That is, I am willing to accept the absolutes - gas and electricity cause lower emissions and that unprocessed solid fuels may cause more. It is relative to what and with what impact on dosages, and which pollutants - including those from food itself - that matters, and even then only in part. There are few mass deaths due to dirty indoor air - 9/11 World Trade Towers and Pentagon is one example, Montepeuz prison is another.) <br><br>2. Junk ISO circus, and in particular the PM2.5 emission rate tiers, and the WHO "Guidelines for HFC". WHO has no business in energy and environmental policy, pretense and over-reach to the contrary, and knows little of air quality management, food culture, or economics. On your own, investigate a little about chemistry of local fuels and composition of PICs in your TLUD stoves other than CO. If high-temperature pyrolysis has virtually eliminated NMVOCs, relax. If there are still some that lead to indoor concentrations that are uncomfortable to the user, see whether any behavioral change is needed. Or use a chimney and check if it makes outdoor air quality worse than the national standard for hourly maximum or daily average and if so, for how much time.<br><br>3. My three questions were: <u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="margin:5pt 0in 5pt 30pt" type="cite"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(80,0,80);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">i) What does a very poor household want in an improved stove - reliable fuel efficiency or low smoke, or, often, nothing, because the head of the household wants to fix a window or throw a party?;</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(80,0,80);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">ii) What is "good enough" in the sense of "marketable, usable" for not-so-poor households and what all determine the overall economy of cooking - not just costs of competing stoves and fuels but availability and cost of water or food ingredients; </span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:5pt 0in 5pt 30pt" type="cite"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(80,0,80);background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial">iii) Are there "cooking systems" options that actually help alleviate poverty in terms of freeing up cash savings or time?</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>I think - based on what I have read of the West Bengal project - I am cc'ing Sujatha and Sujoy, if they wish to add - that these three went in the favor of your Champion TLUD stove. <br><br>This brings me to your questions:<br><br>A. It seems good enough to get some support for some further scale up. No doubt. Public procurement rules go against "sole source" contracting, but if Shell Foundation or even UN Foundation have a window of "small projects" - the way UNDP/GEF had years ago ($200-500k, I think), that would be the best bet for you or your project partners. Bankability is the test. I suggest putting together a business plan and prospectus for a $2m funding for a total project cost of $5-10 m (including the cost of the stoves, paid for by the users by and large except for initial discount or credit.) <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0in 0in 12pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">C. Bureaucracies run on prods and fads, and have different thresholds of commitments for money and time, and different processes of justification. DfID dumped some 40 million pounds in India, Kenya, and GACC to get -- don't know what; the project documents promised the sky, nighttime and daytime, because some bureaucrat (could have been a friend of mine; I don't know) chose to go ga ga over GACC and its misadventures. US government blew $100+ million (I have a table in a draft post) on "clean cookstoves" but mostly via USAID, USEPA, USDOE, NIH, and CDC. Its output is peer-reviewed papers and ISO song-and-dance. <br><br>I cautioned readers of this list two years ago that WHO/ISO meant to drive clean solid fuel stoves out of the market by definition and by regulation. And that GACC had no legal existence, hence no accountability. <br><br>Does anybody still doubt me? <br><br><br>Nikhil<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 11:26 PM, Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt" type="cite"><div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Nikhil,<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">You wrote:<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">>>. I am still looking for a formulation of the problem, definition of a market, and the delivery >>chain for usable stoves and fuels, at an appreciable scale.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Are you saying that the West Bengal success story (Deganga report with 11,000, and now expanded to about 40,000), plus what I have been formulating, defining and with delivery chain is:<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">A. Not good enough to get some support for some further scale up? Or<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">B. Is not known by you? (as if you and others are not even aware of the progress and methods that are functional thus far on a break-even and even net financial gain basis.) Or<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">C. Something else????<span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">What should be done differently? Or abandon because it is not sufficient? <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">I cannot get Kirk Smith to publicly comment specifically on the TLUD gasifiers. So you are in good company as those who cannot see any success worthy of acknowledging with biomass-fueled stove.<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Paul (still with multiple avenues for moving forward.)<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u></u><u></u></div><div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Email: <span class="m_-2037614697689936873m_-5027599350820420570Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target="_blank"><span style="color:rgb(5,99,193)">psanders@ilstu.edu</span></a> <wbr> Skype: paultlud<u></u><u></u></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"> <u> </u><u></u><u></u></div><div style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;border-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt"><div><div><div><div><div><div><blockquote style="border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 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