<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Dear all,<div>glad to see some discussiosn and different opinions.</div><div><br></div><div>@ Paul, thanks for the compliments about OTAGO and I confirm that the TLUD technology is working very well for us. We have uploaded also some technical drawing of our TLUD powered kilns/dryers on our website: <a href="http://otago-global.com/activities/">http://otago-global.com/activities/</a></div><div>In 2019 we intend to build a new bigger factory and I am sending you in the attachment a 3D design of what it will look like (production capacity of up to 20 tons/day). Besides the 3D external design of the factory, which looks "pretty", we have also done a full 3D simulation of the entire production process, calculating and measuring machine performances, stock and buffer sizes, and HR requirements (short video of the simulation showing part of the factory also in the attachment). You are welcome to come visit next time you pass by in the area (South East Asia).</div><div><br></div><div>Likewise, everybody else is welcome to visit our factory. We give regular factory tours to whoever requests one, usually schools/universities and NGOs/international organizations, but in some cases also to private sector. What Paul mentions about being useful to see some data from Inyenyeri, I completely agree! I have always had very open attitude with my business (for example factory visits) and at each and every PPT presentation I include a graph showing our sales increasing from 48 tons/year in 2011 to 1,180 tons/year in 2017. In this sense, I have written and published a full handbook (including a management excel tool) about char-briquettes production, which can also be downloaded directly from our website. <a href="http://otago-global.com/making-char-briquettes/">http://otago-global.com/making-char-briquettes/</a></div><div><br></div><div>@ Crispin: carbon credits are an option, but you need that people use the stoves, and that you actually produce and distribute the fuel.<br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;letter-spacing:normal">@ Nikhil: I don't understand why you bring now the GACC in the discussion and I would prefer to remain focused on the topic. I also think that there is no need to remind us about the potential market represented by the clean cooking sector and its problems (3 billion potential customers and 4 million deaths). We are also working in this sector and are very well aware of the situation.</div><div style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;letter-spacing:normal">The new articles that you have shared in the links don't provide many answer to my questions and actually they generated some new ones:</div><div><ul><li style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;letter-spacing:normal">The Mimi Moto stove costs actually 80 USD (and not 60 USD as I thought) making the entire business model financially even more difficult. Is that right?</li><li><i>"In August, the IKEA Foundation made a 3m euro grant to Inyenyeri, as part of its global commitment to protect the health of children. That support is critical as Inyenyeri moves towards its goal of providing cookstoves to 150,000 homes in Rwanda by 2020."</i> From 2,000 customers to 150,000 households within 3 years? How convincing must that grant proposal have been?<br></li><li style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13px;letter-spacing:normal">600,000 up to 1 million carbon credits generated by 2023, which the World Bank and Ci-Dev are ready to buy? How many tons of pellets is that? If that calculation was made for my char-briquettes here in Cambodia that would be 36,000 tons to 60,000 tons of fuel. Is that actually feasible to do by 2023, considering what we have seen so far? What are today's actual production and sales rates? What is needed to reach the necessary scale (investment, equipment, market)? Since, as you mention, proper due diligence must have been carried out, it would be great if some of the math was made public to understand how such business models can actually scale up so quickly. This is a "development sector" and I believe that organizations like World Bank and Ci-Dev wouldn't have any problems disclosing such information so that eventually other could benefit from it and more could be done to help 3 billion people.<br></li><li><i>"Inyenyeri came up with a barter system under which rural household provide the company with wood, the raw material for its pellets. In return, they get stoves and pellets. These cashless customers only have to collect about half as much wood as they used to because the stove-pellet combination is so much more efficient than open fires, according to Reynolds."</i> What I heard is that Inyeyeri is exchanging 8 kg of wood for 1 kg of pellets, is that right? In that case would it really be more convenient for the people to exchange wood for pellets, considering that they also have to bring it all the way out to the factory and back to their homes?<br></li><li><i>"First, Inyenyeri is using Mimi Moto stoves, which are, by most accounts, the cleanest biomass stoves in the world." </i>Is it also the preferred stove by users and best selling stove? Here in Cambodia there has been a "result based financed stove auction" (<a href="http://www.thestoveauction.org/">http://www.thestoveauction.org/</a>) where also the Mimi Moto stove participated and talking to stove sellers, they told me that it wasn't one of their best selling stoves at all. Any different data and results in other countries?</li><li>Congratulations to Eric for Marmot, but I thought that here we were discussing about Inyenyeri's business model...</li></ul><div>Looking forward to more interesting and engaging discussions.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Carlo</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 6:44 AM Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Crispin, Carlo:<br><br>See <a href="https://www.ci-dev.org/Inyenyeri" target="_blank">https://www.ci-dev.org/Inyenyeri</a> and <a href="https://nonprofitchronicles.com/2017/10/17/inyenyeri-a-bold-plan-for-clean-cookstoves/" target="_blank">https://nonprofitchronicles.com/2017/10/17/inyenyeri-a-bold-plan-for-clean-cookstoves/</a>.<br><br>The latter piece is by Marc Gunther, who is not entirely credible given his tone and assertions.<br><br>Still, <br><br></div></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div><div>“We’re still scrambling,” Reynolds tells me. “There’s still a lot of uncertainty involved.”</div></div><div><div><br></div></div><div><div>But the potential is enormous. Maybe I should have started this post by reminding readers that about 3 billion — yes, 3 billion! — people cook and heat their homes using open fires or crude biomass stoves. The WHO estimates that more than 4 million people die prematurely from illnesses attributed to household air pollution caused by cooking."</div></div></blockquote><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><br>Louis Boorstin is an ex-IFC man not given to losing money, though I think the Osprey Foundation lost money on the GACC adventure to lend to stove companies. It shut down after two loans, losing Dutch money and wasting Deutsche Bank staff time. We had a discussion about a GACC webinar on this subject on this list a few months ago.<br><br>Everything touched by GACC smells of something or the other. Here the carbon credit buyer is the World Bank Ci-Dev, so I assume proper due diligence was done and toxic smoke left for NYTimes to inhale and blow on its readers.<br><br>Nikhil <br><br>PS: For Mr. Reynolds' first adventure, eventually successful, see <a href="https://www.inc.com/magazine/19950801/2367.html" target="_blank">https://www.inc.com/magazine/19950801/2367.html</a><br><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 11:58 AM Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-CA">
<div class="gmail-m_-5161142052331029636gmail-m_987621889135287259WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>“</span>How are they making any money?”<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Carbon trading?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span>Crispin<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US"><u></u> <u></u></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Dear all,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">this is the first time I intervene on this mailing list. I have been following for years with very much interest the technical discussions on stoves, where I am not an expert, but I have a pretty good experience and knowledge about fuel
production and distribution, through my char-briquettes company in Cambodia - SGFE. We are so successful in Cambodia that now we have decided to "franchise" our model in other countries and we are doing that through a new company called OTAGO
<a href="https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.otago-global.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C34377fb169244371c15708d662a2e307%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636804849060834173&sdata=J2XGQDdQHQXu0ROTN94Jzd0FwrJfnxlZRqwuo%2F1F7fQ%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank">
www.otago-global.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Regarding Inyenyeri's business model, I have to say that I have more than a doubt:<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">1. If inyenyeri has 5,000 customers, that means that they are producing at least 5 tons of pellets per day (1 kg/stove/day). Judging from the pictures of the production facility, I would hardly say it produces even just 1 ton/day. Where
is the raw material? Where are the safety stocks? Where is the equipment? Are they moving 5 tons of material around the factory every day with a wheelbarrow as it can be seen in one of the pictures? My factory has an average output of 3-4 tons/day and it has
a main building of 1,200 sqm, 30 production workers and a raw material stock of 200 tons and a finished product stock of 70-80 tons (not considering the buffers of material which is being processed).<u></u><u></u></p>
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<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Why are the production workers in Inyeyeri wearing helmets? The building is not really high, there don't seem to be any overhead stored material or overhead movement of material (like with cranes). In my experience with processing biomass
fuel, you keep everything on the floor, since there is lots of material and it is really heavy. Unless there is the risk that the roof falls on their head, the helmets seem completely useless and worn just as a statement of (useless) safety measures being
implemented.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2. According to Inyenyeri's business model, they receive the biomass from the people that collect it and bring it to the factory. To produce 5 tons/day you need at least 5 tons of wood per day (more if you consider the moisture content).
If everybody brought 50kg (I imagine these people are low income, might not have a car or even a motorbike and therefore bring everything on foot, as shown in a picture) that would mean 100 people line up every day in front of the factory. How much time does
it take to weigh the wood one by one and pay them? Do they weigh 5 tons of wood every day with that small hanging scale that can be seen in one of the pictures? At SGFE we have trucks delivering the raw material at the factory and just the unloading of the
trucks is already a really hard job.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">3. How does Inyenyeri distribute the pellets? With bicycles, as it can be seen in the picture and in the video? They distribute 5 tons of pellets in a HILLY COUNTRY with bicycles? How many bicycles do they have/need? The riders have probably
a training ready to participate to the Tour the France.... In Cambodia we use 2-3 Tuk Tuks driving around the city 10 hours a day (from 8am to 6 pm), fully loaded to deliver 3-4 tons/day. And Phnom Penh is completely flat!<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">4. According to Inyenyeri's business model they distribute Mimimotos stoves for free and they earn the money by selling the fuel. If Inyenyeri makes 30% profit margin on the fuel (which is massive, because fuel businesses are usually "low
margins high volumes" business models), selling the pellets at 0.24 USD/kg, it would take 2 years and 3 months only to pay back the 60 USD stove. How are they making any money? What if some of the customers decide they don't want to buy the pellets anymore,
which would add effective losses?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">5. Inyenyeri's business model is already pretty hard to believe with the alleged 5,000 customers, how do they intend to scale up to serve 100,000 households? Do they have any idea of what it means to produce 100 tons of pellets per day?
(Size of the building and land, necessary raw material storage, equipment, trucks, etc...). How many hundreds/thousands of people will line up in front of the factory every day to supply the wood/raw material? Is it even manageable and is it actually feasible
to secure the required feedstock with such a business model? Are they going to deliver 100 tons per month on bicycles?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">6. Inyenyeri has risen 12 million USD in funding (private investments and grants). On what basis was that amount of money granted to Inyenyeri? For their business model or their technology or their market penetration? Is the business plan
or any other data publicly available? What have they demonstrated in the past? And what have they done with that money so far?<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I am an engineer and have been working in the fuel business for 8 years. I find it really hard to believe Inyenyeri's story and am wondering if anybody else has the same doubts or if anyone can eventually give me some answers.<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Carlo<u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">_________________________</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Carlo Figà Talamanca - CEO</span></b><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><br>
<b><span style="color:rgb(106,168,79)">Sustainable Green Fuel Enterprise (SGFE)</span></b><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(68,68,68)">Phlove Lom, Phoum Russey, Sangkat Stueng Meanchey, Khan Meanchey,</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(68,68,68)">Phnom Penh, CAMBODIA</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><br>
</span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">T: </span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><a href="tel:%2B855-%280%2997-8159256" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)">+855-(0)97-8159256</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">E: </span><a href="mailto:carloft@gmail.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)">carlo@sgfe-cambodia.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">W: </span><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><a href="https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sgfe-cambodia.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7C34377fb169244371c15708d662a2e307%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636804849060834173&sdata=9%2F1j%2FFs9IYfr8NSlNZWULadKWOP8iCZbRRB4mDrDgoY%3D&reserved=0" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(17,85,204)">www.sgfe-cambodia.com</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><img border="0" width="96" height="48" style="width: 1in; height: 0.5in;" id="gmail-m_-5161142052331029636gmail-m_987621889135287259_x0000_i1025" src="https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1dM5gPVADSeQGJ2n2ZoRL3ZbvRfKpUnKC&revid=0BzOEbDw-ryg7MFlSMjljQURCdUUzSWVkanJlUjlLQUMyY2hzPQ"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
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