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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-CA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Hi Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Would it be possible that you and Hans-Peter did a bit of work off-line, and then reported back to the List, giving a perspective on the nature and extent of the “Methane Problem”, and the circumstances where it might be an actual concern on stove and chart systems?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>My “off-the-cuff”, “simple-wild-ass-guess” is that methane is not a problem if there is no smoke.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>No point in consuming the List with a Subject that probably is a non-problem<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Kevin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> biochar@yahoogroups.com [mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> February 22, 2019 10:37 AM<br><b>To:</b> biochar@yahoogroups.com; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org><br><b>Cc:</b> 'Hans-Peter Schmidt' - Switzerland - Nepal <schmidt@ithaka-institut.org><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [biochar] Methane from char-makers<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div id=ygrp-mlmsg><div id=ygrp-msg><div id=ygrp-text><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Kevin,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>The topic of methane only arose because Hans-Peter presented info about methane from Kon Tiki devices, and then the topic grew from there.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>1. Stove-size TLUDs: no problem with methane had been detected, and current actions will continue unless someone who deals with stoves actually says that methane from cookstoves (of any type) is an emissions issue to be considered. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>2. Char-makers such as Kon Tiki / trench for biochar AND CLIMATE MITIGATION are getting large enough that methane could be a problem that prevents or negates the value of sequestration. THIS needs further discussion by the biochar folks.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>3. All big efforts such as Biogreen and ROI Carbonator 500 could be facing a challenge to their claims of climate benefits if methane is a true and serious problem. Should be considered further.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Paul<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><span style='color:#0563C1'>psanders@ilstu.edu</span></a> Skype: paultlud<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>www.drtlud.com</span></a> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a> <<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 22, 2019 5:21 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>; 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves' <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [biochar] Methane from char-makers<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div id=ygrp-mlmsg><div id=ygrp-msg><div id=ygrp-text><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Hi Paul</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>“Methane from Char-Makers” is a rather broad Subject Line. One can make char with many systems and techniques, and one can expect to produce various quantities of methane and char in various qualities. Clearly, a gasifier producing “Engine Grade Gas” and Char” could have Char/Methane output different from a TLUD, an externally heated retort, a Kontiki, a Three Stone Fire, etc.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>In your case, where your major interest is in TLUD systems, it would appear that one way to proceed would be as follows:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>1: Do “methane analysis” on TLUD flue gas, under various operating conditions, to determine how much, if any, CH4 is produced, and if any is produced, under what operating conditions is it produced.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>2: Considering the markets into which you are selling various TLUD systems, is there a problem or opportunity associated with the presence or absence of CH4 in TLUD exit gases?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>If there are no methane related problems or opportunities associated with your products and the markets into which you sell them, then you need have little to no concern for methane.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Best wishes,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Kevin</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a> [<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> February 22, 2019 1:06 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [biochar] Methane from char-makers<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div id=ygrp-mlmsg><div id=ygrp-msg><div id=ygrp-text><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I place comments below in Geoff’s message (shortened) and then I paste the key first paragraph of a message from Frank Shields. Both add to our information and also raise some questions relating to methane.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>See below.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><span style='color:#0563C1'>psanders@ilstu.edu</span></a> Skype: paultlud<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>www.drtlud.com</span></a> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a> <<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 21, 2019 9:19 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [biochar] Methane from char-makers<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <b><i>[PSA>>] </i></b>Geoff wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><div id=ygrp-mlmsg><div id=ygrp-msg><div id=ygrp-text><p>Thanks for that table Valentine, anyone who claims variance from that should be able to prove it or at least cite studies so indicating.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Q/1, why are stoves not tested for methane? - well, the dominant information in the Biochar world is that the passing of exhaust smoke through a glowing charcoal bed crazy for oxygen causes all the aromatic etc oils to burn, the carbon dioxide to burn, the water to split into oxygen and hydrogen and burn, - why would methane be excepted?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><i>[PSA>>] There is some disagreement here. SOME units pass the exhaust gas through glowing hot charcoal (such as downdraft gasifiers), But TLUDs pass it through residual charcoal, and flame-cap (Kon Tiki) do not pass it through any charcoal.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>You might as well ask why are stoves not tested for radiation, Bubonic plague or terrroism messages..<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Q/3, answered by 1, except if far too much water is added, in which case the stove would probably self extinguish. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><i>[PSA>>] I think that questions 1 and 3 still need further answers.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div id=ygrp-mlmsg><div id=ygrp-msg><div id=ygrp-text><div id=divtagdefaultwrapper><div><div><div id="x_ygrp-mlmsg"><div id="x_ygrp-msg"><div id="x_ygrp-text"><div><p class=xmsonormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>1. Why are the stove tests not including methane emissions results? (be sure Jim Jetter sees this.)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>2. HPS says methane is 100 times worse than CO2, but others say 25 times worse. Which is it?<b><i>[PSA>>] </i></b> Already answered by Hans-Peter</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>3. Major comment by HPS: “methane molecules get wrapped by arising water vapor which prevent its combustion.” Correct or not? Can it be explained more fully? And conclusion would be to use very dry fuel, right? (meaning changing our stoves?)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><b><i>Below is Frank Shield’s comment:</i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:black'>Hi Paul,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;color:black'>There is equipment to measure methane without a lot of cost. I played around with them when at the Soil Control Lab. There may be interference from other gasses (false positives) so that will need be checked. I do not have that equipment and I am sure they at the lab would not know where it is. Also; I found that biochar will take up methane like it does butane. I tested that using pure methane but I no longer have my results. Likely in a combustion atmosphere there will be other gases competing with the methane and may dirty the char. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><b><i>PSA: I can appreciate the difficulties of getting good measurements. But note that the flame-cap Kon Tiki does not have the gases (including methane) passing through charcoal. </i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><b><i>I think the questions #1 and #3 could still have further responses.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><b><i>Paul</i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=xmsonormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:white'>__._,_.___<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style='margin-top:7.5pt' id=fromDMARC><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" noshade style='color:#E3E3E3' align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal>Posted by: "Anderson, Paul" <<a 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