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<p class="MsoNormal">Hugh,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Thank you. We need this type of info.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">And we do know that CO can escape combustion in stoves and flame-cap devices when conditions are good for escape (bad for complete combustion).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">When a TLUD is operating with very very low CO emissions, can we assume that methane is also not being emitted?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I find it easy to believe that the Kon-Tiki and other open-top flame-cap devices do have substantial emissions of CO and PM and (by inference also methane). Flame-cap (noted for the open top) might not be as good as we have tended to
think that it is. Let’s try to clarify about this with our internal discussions before some opposition person rams down our throats some “proof” that our char-production methods are faulty (or terrible).<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Paul<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><span style="color:#0563C1">psanders@ilstu.edu</span></a> Skype: paultlud<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">www.drtlud.com</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Hugh McLaughlin <wastemin1@verizon.net> <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 23, 2019 11:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> biochar@yahoogroups.com<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org>; Schmidt, Hans-Peter <schmidt@ithaka-institut.org>; Kathleen Draper <kdraper2@rochester.rr.com>; Anderson, Paul <psanders@ilstu.edu><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [biochar] Methane from char-makers<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Small symmetrical molecules, including CO and Methane, have high autoignition temperatures. The presence of water vapors raised the vapors heat capacity, lowering the temperature rise for a given radiant energy flux, leading to lower combustion
efficiencies for CO and Methane. All the oxygenated organics go first. Hugh<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">On Feb 23, 2019 8:48 AM, "'d.michael.shafer@gmail.com' d.michael.shafer@gmail.com [biochar]" <biochar@yahoogroups.com> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">According to the EPA, the GWP or Global Warming Potential, of methane is 25.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">As for emissions, I am personally surprised by any claim that TLUDs emit methane. The entire point of a good stack is to encourage methane to burn at a high temp to break down other GHGs. Certainly none of our emissions
tests has registered any CH4.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Out here it is nigh on impossible to get a closed room for testing emissions from a trough or trench. (Thai universities see no interest in uncompensated research in the public good.) The water wrapped methane molecules
strikes me as improbable, although I think that the suggested risk to the climate is so great that someone needs to re-run these emissions tests immediately.<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">M<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">On Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:40 PM 'Anderson, Paul'
<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> [biochar] <<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:9.0pt">[<a href="#m_4012556554620465370_TopText"><span style="text-decoration:none">Attachment(s)</span></a> from Anderson, Paul included below]</span></b>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white">To all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">The message from Hans-Peter (HPS) is important about emissions from cookstoves AND from char-making devices. The focus is on methane emissions. Some comments, based on a rapid look at the 2 articles attached, which should be
studied by the chemists and emissions specialists in our groups.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">1. Why are the stove tests not including methane emissions results? (be sure Jim Jetter sees this.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">2. HPS says methane is 100 times worse than CO2, but others say 25 times worse. Which is it?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">3. Major comment by HPS: “methane molecules get wrapped by arising water vapor which prevent its combustion..” Correct or not? Can it be explained more fully? And conclusion would be to use very dry fuel, right? (meaning
changing our stoves?)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">4. I take issue with one comment from table 4 on page 12 (of 16 in Kon Tiki article) about disadvantage of TLUD stoves: “Too small to generate larger amounts of biochar.” THAT statement is the perspective of a SINGLE stove.
But when they are used by the thousands, each 1200 TLUD stoves produce about one ton of char/biochar EACH DAY. 36,000 in West Bengal are producing about 30 tons per day, every day, and have been doing so for a few years, and will continue. On a worldwide
scale today, that much charcoal is probably more than that of all the flame-cap devices combined on a daily basis. (That last statemen can be challenge if anyone has and data.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">AND the heat energy is not being wasted when TLUD stoves make charcoal. Although the comment in the table overlooks the importance of “scale by number” (instead of “scale by size”), I am glad that the TLUD stoves were at least
mentioned in the report and Table. That is progress over being totally ignored.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">I hope that there is substantial discussion about the methane topic.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Paul<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white">Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><span style="color:#0563C1">psanders@ilstu.edu</span></a> Skype: paultlud<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com"><span style="color:#0563C1">www.drtlud.com</span></a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white"><b>From:</b> Schmidt, Hans-Peter <<a href="mailto:schmidt@ithaka-institut.org">schmidt@ithaka-institut.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 21, 2019 12:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Kathleen Draper <<a href="mailto:draper@ithaka-institut.org">draper@ithaka-institut.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Hi Paul, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Please find attached our paper on low tech pyrolysis emissions. The CH4-emissions of TLUD and Kon-Tikis are in the same order. Optimization of gas combustion and especially the use of dry feedstock can greatly reduce CH4-emissions
of both. CH4-emissions of forest wild fires are in the some order as optimized Kon-Tiki (see the other attached paper). In field burning of harvest residues produce more methane especially when the residues are humid as is often the case.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">The quantity of emitted methane may not look high but as the Global Warming Potential (GWP) of methane is about 100 times that of CO2 in the first 20 years, the climate effect of rather low CH4-quantities is already considerable.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">The problem with methane in all low-tech pyrolysis systems is that methane molecules get wrapped by arising water vapor which prevent its combustion.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Be well, Hans-Peter <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Von: </span>
</b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">"Anderson, Paul" <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Datum: </b>Donnerstag, 21. Februar 2019 um 04:25<br>
<b>An: </b>"Schmidt, Hans-Peter" <<a href="mailto:schmidt@ithaka-institut.org">schmidt@ithaka-institut.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>><br>
<b>Betreff: </b>RE: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white">Hans-Peter,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Thank you.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">There was no attached graph. Please send.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">I am assuming that you are not subscribed to the Biochar Listserv because you do not send replies to that address. So I am forwarding your very valuable comments to the Biochar listserv. More comments are below.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white">Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white"><b>From:</b> Schmidt, Hans-Peter <<a href="mailto:schmidt@ithaka-institut.org">schmidt@ithaka-institut.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">... considering that 40 t DM of biomass per ha is what can be expected in tropical carbon farming systems, the 1500 t of biomass necessary for one standard size E-pyrolysis would need about 40 ha. And even when they do not achieve
those numbers in productivity in the first years, with 100 – 200 ha there would be enough biomass per village. In the tropics, this is more or less year around, and the machines can work in continuous processes.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"><b><i>[PSA>>] The above is a valuable statement. DM is “dry matter”, right? Just knowing about 40 t/ha/year would require 40 ha, and then to have extra, allow up to 100 or 200 ha. 100 ha is NOT a very big area; it is only
1 sq km.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"><b><i>So a safe easy statement is that there can be sufficient biomass to produce 1 t of char per day for a year from a area the size of about 1 sq km.
</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"><b><i>??? Did I say that correctly? We do not want to be saying things that we later need to retract.
</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"><b><i>???? Maybe others who are in the tropical settings (Thailand, Uganda, etc.) could comment about this..</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">The US$ 50.000 estimate are based on our experimental E-Pyrolysis data, the Pyreg 1 t BC per day systems and experiences with other rotary kiln systems.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"><b><i>[PSA>>] I looked up the Pyreg rotary kiln. Nice video of a small model at
</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"><b><i><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=138&v=Rok9a28IJqQ">https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=138&v=Rok9a28IJqQ</a></i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"><b><i>???Where is there some info of a larger unit that does 1 t BC per day? Or was that a calculated estimate of scale-up? Either way, that is a good starting point.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">It is only an estimate but I do not see any that may increase the material and construction cost beyond 50..000 when it enters serial mass production. And I also think that 50.000 would be a kind of limit for investors to start upscaling.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"><b><i>[PSA>>] I agree. The $50,000 is not a trivial amount and could be the limit for investors. And that is ONLY based on when serial mass production is possible.
</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"><b><i>??? Statement: What the world needs is a 1 t of BC per day system that costs only $25,000. Is that a good goal or “dream”??? Would that price make the production of biochar become a major factor quickly??? I would
like several people to comment about this. Not just Hans-Peter has answers. Comments from all are appreciated.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">The methane emissions shown in the graph are based on our Kon-Tiki paper (attached). The data are even much worse when the feedstock is not completely dry. We are going to publish a paper about it within the next months.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"><b><i>[PSA>>] As said before, please send the graph. I really did not associate methane with burning of biomass. I need some instruction. Does an open fire (bonfire or campfire or 3-stone fire) put out considerable methane
emissions? The testing of cookstoves does NOT have a methane concern!!!! So is it something about the flame-cap of the Kon-Tiki and other open cone kilns that “causes” the methane to be created and to escape?? Please help with this question. I am
still not understanding about methane for such fires.</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"><b><i>[PSA>>] Paul</i></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Best, hp<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Von: </span>
</b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">"Anderson, Paul" <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Datum: </b>Mittwoch, 20. Februar 2019 um 23:57<br>
<b>An: </b>'Hans-Peter Schmidt' - Switzerland - Nepal <<a href="mailto:schmidt@ithaka-institut.org">schmidt@ithaka-institut.org</a>>, "<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Anderson, Paul" <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Betreff: </b>Webinar comments by Hans-Peter</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p style="background:white">Hans-Peter,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Just wondering, why do you think that the 1 t/day of char production would be a size that would be appropriate for villages? We are discussing developing countries.. Would this be expected year round, or maybe only seasonally
for 2 to 5 months (and then idle)?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">And where did the $50,000 price per pyrolyzer installation come from? I am content if you say it was just a convenient number, but maybe you have some basis for it.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">*********<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Another question:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">I was surprised by your comment about the (relatively) high emissions of methane from the Kon Tiki (and other) flame-cap charmakers. Any links to reports about this? Why methane? I would have more easily believe high PM or
CO. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Paul<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white">Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style="background:white"> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Posted by: "d.michael.shafer@gmail.com" <d.michael.shafer@gmail.com>
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