<div dir="auto">Paul,<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">This is what I have spent the last five years working on. There are important issues to consider that apply out here</div><div dir="auto">1. Weather cycle. In many (most) places, the cycle is 3 months of rain and 9 months of dry. Farmers farm the rains and for another 2 months. </div><div dir="auto">2. Biomass is dry to char and farmers are free to char it only after the harvest.</div><div dir="auto">3. A month before the rains, field prep begins.</div><div dir="auto">4. Actual biomass per farmer is typically very small - perhaps 5 tonnes. </div><div dir="auto">5. Roads are very poor and transportation costly.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Collectively, these add up to a situation where biochar production is a six-month a year, distributed operation that doesn't lend itself to scale tech.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">This said, a farmer and a friend or two can char all the biomass on a farm in a couple of weeks. Within months, farmers using the lowest tech available can char every bit of biomass in the village. The char can be delivered to a broker when villagers go to market.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If a village has 20 active farms of 2.5 ha each, that village can produce a minimum tonnes of char. In North Thailand, I can easily find 100 such villages. Capital equipment and working capital work out at about $10,000 per village, but - with off take!!! - they are profitable in Year 1, pay back the capital loan in 5 years and pay a nice dividend to both investors and coop members.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I emphasize the issue of off-take because the issue here is not making the stuff, it's finding someone who wants to buy it at a price good enough for the poorest people on earth.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">M</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Feb 24, 2019, 10:14 AM <a href="mailto:d.michael.shafer@gmail.com">d.michael.shafer@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:d.michael.shafer@gmail.com">d.michael.shafer@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto">At the end of this thread are references to biomass available per ha. Behind them lie assumptions about land availability. The figure 40 ha strikes me as very high. The figure I encounter most often is an average farm size of 2.5 ha. In a standard village of 200-300 people or 40-60 households, this suggests a maximum average cultivated area of not more than 150 ha. I have never visited a village in which all potential land was in use nor in which all villagers would participate in a single scheme. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The primary challenge of charring at the periphery is is very small size of biomass piles available at any location or in any village. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">M</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Feb 21, 2019, 9:40 PM 'Anderson, Paul' <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> [biochar] <<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
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<span style="font-weight:700;font-size:12px;display:block;margin-bottom:20px">[<a style="text-decoration:none" href="#m_7639717232830570312_m_2254998947419920370_m_4012556554620465370_TopText" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer">Attachment(s)</a> from Anderson, Paul included below]</span>
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<p class="MsoNormal">To all,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The message from Hans-Peter (HPS) is important about emissions from cookstoves AND from char-making devices. The focus is on methane emissions. Some comments, based on a rapid look at the 2 articles attached, which should be studied
by the chemists and emissions specialists in our groups.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">1. Why are the stove tests not including methane emissions results? (be sure Jim Jetter sees this.)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">2. HPS says methane is 100 times worse than CO2, but others say 25 times worse. Which is it?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">3. Major comment by HPS: “methane molecules get wrapped by arising water vapor which prevent its combustion.” Correct or not? Can it be explained more fully? And conclusion would be to use very dry fuel, right? (meaning changing
our stoves?)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">4. I take issue with one comment from table 4 on page 12 (of 16 in Kon Tiki article) about disadvantage of TLUD stoves: “Too small to generate larger amounts of biochar.” THAT statement is the perspective of a SINGLE stove. But
when they are used by the thousands, each 1200 TLUD stoves produce about one ton of char/biochar EACH DAY. 36,000 in West Bengal are producing about 30 tons per day, every day, and have been doing so for a few years, and will continue. On a worldwide
scale today, that much charcoal is probably more than that of all the flame-cap devices combined on a daily basis. (That last statemen can be challenge if anyone has and data.)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">AND the heat energy is not being wasted when TLUD stoves make charcoal. Although the comment in the table overlooks the importance of “scale by number” (instead of “scale by size”), I am glad that the TLUD stoves were at least mentioned
in the report and Table. That is progress over being totally ignored.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">I hope that there is substantial discussion about the methane topic.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Paul<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">psanders@ilstu.edu</span></a> Skype: paultlud<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">www.drtlud.com</span></a>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Schmidt, Hans-Peter <<a href="mailto:schmidt@ithaka-institut.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">schmidt@ithaka-institut.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 21, 2019 12:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Kathleen Draper <<a href="mailto:draper@ithaka-institut.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">draper@ithaka-institut.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE">Hi Paul, <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Please find attached our paper on low tech pyrolysis emissions. The CH4-emissions of TLUD and Kon-Tikis are in the same order. Optimization of gas combustion and especially the use of dry feedstock can greatly reduce CH4-emissions of both.
CH4-emissions of forest wild fires are in the some order as optimized Kon-Tiki (see the other attached paper). In field burning of harvest residues produce more methane especially when the residues are humid as is often the case.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The quantity of emitted methane may not look high but as the Global Warming Potential (GWP) of methane is about 100 times that of CO2 in the first 20 years, the climate effect of rather low CH4-quantities is already considerable.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The problem with methane in all low-tech pyrolysis systems is that methane molecules get wrapped by arising water vapor which prevent its combustion.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Be well, Hans-Peter <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div style="border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Von:
</span></b><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">"Anderson, Paul" <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Datum: </b>Donnerstag, 21. Februar 2019 um 04:25<br>
<b>An: </b>"Schmidt, Hans-Peter" <<a href="mailto:schmidt@ithaka-institut.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">schmidt@ithaka-institut.org</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>><br>
<b>Betreff: </b>RE: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Hans-Peter,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Thank you.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">There was no attached graph. Please send.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">I am assuming that you are not subscribed to the Biochar Listserv because you do not send replies to that address. So I am forwarding your very valuable comments to the Biochar listserv. More comments are below.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
www.drtlud.com</a> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="DE-CH">From:</span></b><span lang="DE-CH"> Schmidt, Hans-Peter <<a href="mailto:schmidt@ithaka-institut.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">schmidt@ithaka-institut.org</a>>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 20, 2019 6:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Webinar comments by Hans-Peter<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">... considering that 40 t DM of biomass per ha is what can be expected in tropical carbon farming systems, the 1500 t of biomass necessary for one standard size E-pyrolysis would need about 40 ha. And even when they do
not achieve those numbers in productivity in the first years, with 100 – 200 ha there would be enough biomass per village. In the tropics, this is more or less year around, and the machines can work in continuous processes.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang="DE-CH">[PSA>>] The above is a valuable statement. DM is “dry matter”, right? Just knowing about 40 t/ha/year would require 40 ha, and then to have extra, allow up to 100 or 200 ha. 100 ha is NOT a very big area;
it is only 1 sq km.</span></i></b><span lang="DE-CH"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang="DE-CH">So a safe easy statement is that there can be sufficient biomass to produce 1 t of char per day for a year from a area the size of about 1 sq km.
</span></i></b><span lang="DE-CH"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang="DE-CH">??? Did I say that correctly? We do not want to be saying things that we later need to retract.
</span></i></b><span lang="DE-CH"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang="DE-CH">???? Maybe others who are in the tropical settings (Thailand, Uganda, etc.) could comment about this.</span></i></b><span lang="DE-CH"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">The US$ 50.000 estimate are based on our experimental E-Pyrolysis data, the Pyreg 1 t BC per day systems and experiences with other rotary kiln systems.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang="DE-CH">[PSA>>] I looked up the Pyreg rotary kiln. Nice video of a small model at
</span></i></b><span lang="DE-CH"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang="DE-CH"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=138&v=Rok9a28IJqQ" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=138&v=Rok9a28IJqQ</a></span></i></b><span lang="DE-CH"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang="DE-CH">???Where is there some info of a larger unit that does 1 t BC per day? Or was that a calculated estimate of scale-up? Either way, that is a good starting point.</span></i></b><span lang="DE-CH"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">It is only an estimate but I do not see any that may increase the material and construction cost beyond 50.000 when it enters serial mass production. And I also think that 50.000 would be a kind of limit for investors
to start upscaling. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang="DE-CH">[PSA>>] I agree. The $50,000 is not a trivial amount and could be the limit for investors. And that is ONLY based on when serial mass production is possible.
</span></i></b><span lang="DE-CH"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang="DE-CH">??? Statement: What the world needs is a 1 t of BC per day system that costs only $25,000. Is that a good goal or “dream”??? Would that price make the production of biochar become a major factor quickly???
I would like several people to comment about this. Not just Hans-Peter has answers. Comments from all are appreciated.</span></i></b><span lang="DE-CH"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">The methane emissions shown in the graph are based on our Kon-Tiki paper (attached). The data are even much worse when the feedstock is not completely dry. We are going to publish a paper about it within the next months.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang="DE-CH">[PSA>>] As said before, please send the graph. I really did not associate methane with burning of biomass. I need some instruction. Does an open fire (bonfire or campfire or 3-stone fire) put out considerable
methane emissions? The testing of cookstoves does NOT have a methane concern!!!! So is it something about the flame-cap of the Kon-Tiki and other open cone kilns that “causes” the methane to be created and to escape?? Please help with this question.
I am still not understanding about methane for such fires.</span></i></b><span lang="DE-CH"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span lang="DE-CH">[PSA>>] Paul</span></i></b><span lang="DE-CH"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Best, hp<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Von:
</span></b><span lang="DE-CH" style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">"Anderson, Paul" <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Datum: </b>Mittwoch, 20. Februar 2019 um 23:57<br>
<b>An: </b>'Hans-Peter Schmidt' - Switzerland - Nepal <<a href="mailto:schmidt@ithaka-institut.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">schmidt@ithaka-institut.org</a>>, "<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Anderson, Paul" <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
<b>Betreff: </b>Webinar comments by Hans-Peter</span><span lang="DE-CH"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Hans-Peter,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Just wondering, why do you think that the 1 t/day of char production would be a size that would be appropriate for villages? We are discussing developing countries. Would this be expected year round, or maybe only
seasonally for 2 to 5 months (and then idle)?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">And where did the $50,000 price per pyrolyzer installation come from? I am content if you say it was just a convenient number, but maybe you have some basis for it.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">*********<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Another question:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">I was surprised by your comment about the (relatively) high emissions of methane from the Kon Tiki (and other) flame-cap charmakers. Any links to reports about this? Why methane? I would have more easily believe
high PM or CO. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Paul<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH">Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">
www.drtlud.com</a> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="DE-CH"> <u></u><u></u></span></p>
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<p style="clear:both;margin:0 0;padding:0 0 3px 0"><span style="color:#628c2a;font-weight:700;font-size:13px">Attachment(s) from Anderson, Paul</span> | <span style="font-size:13px"><a style="text-decoration:none" href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/biochar/attachments/465317892;_ylc=X3oDMTJyOTdhbms2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDM4MDUyBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNzQxODYxMgRzZWMDYXR0YWNobWVudARzbGsDdmlld09uV2ViBHN0aW1lAzE1NTA3NTk5NDE-" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">View attachments on the web </a></span></p>
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Posted by: "Anderson, Paul" <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> <hr style="height:2px;border-width:0;color:#e3e3e3;background-color:#e3e3e3">
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