<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">As an economist, and soil scientist, I struggle to see how stoves has a future. It would be great if we could keep stoves on the stove list. <br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Unless you have a Ph.D. in geology, please stay away from discussions on the mass of glaciers, and the mass of oceans rising, you do not have the training to make sense of what is going on. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Rick Wilson</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Feb 24, 2019, at 5:27 PM, Gordon West <a href="mailto:gordon.west@rtnewmexico.com" class="">gordon.west@rtnewmexico.com</a> [biochar] <<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" class="">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div id="ygrp-mlmsg" style="font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-decoration: none; position: relative;" class=""><div id="ygrp-msg" style="line-height: 1.22em; z-index: 1;" class=""><div id="ygrp-text" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Georgia;" class=""><p style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class="">The idea of lightening the load on the land and having it rise is… well, interesting. It does fit with the theory that the Great Biblical Flood came about when all of the subterranean water that the land floats on came gushing up through some massive cracks. I guess it rained alot, too. What I don’t quite understand is how all the water got back under the earth’s crust, but it must have, except for the oceans and lakes and stuff, which still float on top of the ground.</p><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">I’m a little bit confused I reckon, I hope there’s a scientific study on this soon!</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">GW<br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><blockquote type="cite" class="" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px; line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">On Feb 24, 2019, at 5:55 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div id="response_container_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: initial; color: rgb(64, 96, 191); font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;"><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;">Dan!</div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;">As we say in Swaziland, "Menlo mandala!". It means my eyes have grown old since I last saw you. </div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;">Isn't it amazing what you can learn on the stoves list?</div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;">About the steel: isn't the purpose of the super low oxygen environment intended to reduce the oxidation of the iron?</div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;">It would keep the temperature up as high as possible while maintaining was nearly no available O2. Make sense?</div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;">About the glaciers, the only reason they flow to the sea is they are pushed from behind. I am speaking of those that are really big. The ones that terminate on land are not so interesting but there are lots of them. Just because a glacier flows doesn't mean there is a net change in mass. Let's suppose there is a drop in mass. That means the total water mass in the oceans rises. The land moves up (rebound) the sea floor moves down. The Hudson Bay shore is rebounding about 40mm per year, with, as you say, a delay of several thousand years. All things considered sea level rises - very slowly these days compared with 10,000 years ago. </div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;">Those that calculate such things have recently changed how sea level is reported, meaning how it is calculated. They are adding an estimated depth increase to the actual rise, and report it as " sea level rise" even though the sea level doesn't rise that much. So the number you an find now reported is padding: about 50% of it. Amazing, right? Sounds like good old stove testing. You can't really trust anything you hear, even about simple things. </div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;">How's the bush clearing going? Can you get a large propane tank to use as a charcoal kiln? </div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;">Best regards</div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;">Crispin </div><div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 800px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div></div><div id="_original_msg_header_BBPPID" dir="auto" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><table width="100%" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-size: inherit; background-color: white; outline: none;"><tbody class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><tr class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><td colspan="2" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in; font-family: Tahoma, "BB Alpha Sans", "Slate Pro"; font-size: 10pt;"><div id="from" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:carefreeland@aol.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">carefreeland@aol.com</a></div><div id="sent" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span>February 24, 2019 3:46 PM</div><div id="to" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a></div><div id="cc" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:schmidt@ithaka-institut.org" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">schmidt@ithaka-institut.org</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:kdraper2@rochester.rr.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">kdraper2@rochester.rr.com</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:d.michael.shafer@gmail.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">d.michael.shafer@gmail.com</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon..net" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">wastemin1@verizon.net</a></div><div id="subject" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Continuing in response to Crispin and James</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Crispin and all. A quick check of The MAKING SHAPING and TREATING of STEEL notes the following. Blast furnace gas has zero methane.. It has 27.5% of CO and even 1% H2 makes it through the reaction. While methane, fuel oil, and even steam are introduced to balance the smelting reactions, methane and hydrocarbons do not make it out. Note this is a high temperature yet oxygen starved reaction. In any half efficient combustion devise that allows adaquate secondary air, the methane and light hydrocarbons are first to combust. </div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Now, Crispin, according to your hypothesis: Any glacier melting would raise sea level, but the sea would sink deeper from the added weight. This would keep the actual level constant. I say maybe after 10,000 year lag or more. - Dan Dimiduk.</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><font class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><i class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE Droid</i></font></div></div><div class="elided-text" style="line-height: 1.22em;">On Feb 24, 2019 7:09 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; line-height: 1.22em; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; outline: none;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;">Dear Paul and Mike and All</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;">An important addition to Mike's comment about the stack temperature of 900 is that it must have some minimum O2 content for the statement to be true in general.</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;">On the topic of many charcoal kilns in a confined space on a windless day etc. This question seems to confuse radiative effects of GHG's with "air pollution".</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;">There is no way charcoal making can compare with rotting that vegetation to gases, in terms of its net GHG effects. The whole point that has been made is that charcoal is a way of holding the carbon. Methane can't be made without carbon. If the char exists, the methane and CO2 that would have been produced by rotting doesn't.</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;">For example, the alarming claim that melting permafrost "will produce a lot of methane" is based on the fact that permafrost is full of frozen forest products. Of course it will produce methane, at least it will in summer, but there are two other questions that must be answered at the same time as the methane bomb is mooted: how did that forest debris get there in the first place (it grew there the last time it was warm enough to do so) and what will grow there if the ground is melted (another forest, of course, far more than offsetting the effects of any methane).</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;">So there is no meaningful net effect of methane "influence" on the atmosphere other than the new forest which will grow on that land will again start sequestering CO2. Proof? Look south - what do you see, an endless forest. In other words the net effect is the opposite of the myopic (partial) analysis given by the methane bomb advocates.</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Frankly, this charcoal-making-methane bomb equivalent is a tempest in a tea cup, a thimble, an eye-dropper. When I stand on the shore and piss into the ocean, it raises sea levels. That is half the story. The other half is I weigh less so the ground under me rises and deepens the ocean, cancelling my "influence".</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;">Charcoaling systems should burn the effluent to prevent smoke which is a pollutant. However if we managed to completely suppress all fires in all forests and grasslands, it would probably stop raining because raindrops form around aerosol particles, a large fraction of which are from bad combustion.</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;">In times of drought on the Great Plains, the First Nations people learned to recognise supersaturated conditions in the air and lit grass fires to cause the formation of raindrops which then fell in the vicinity.. Rainmaking is a real thing. If they instead made charcoal in a modern kiln it wouldn't have worked. Too clean.</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;">Crispin's rule number one: Never assume anything.</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;">Regards</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;">Crispin assuming this is adequate</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; width: 787.71875px;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p dir="ltr" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></p></div></div></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><table width="100%" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-size: inherit; background-color: white; outline: none;"><tbody class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><tr class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><td colspan="2" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in; font-family: tahoma, "bb alpha sans", "slate pro"; font-size: 10pt;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:d.michael.shafer@gmail.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">d.michael.shafer@gmail.com</a></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span>February 24, 2019 1:54 AM</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">psanders@ilstu.edu</a></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:schmidt@ithaka-institut.org" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">schmidt@ithaka-institut.org</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:kdraper2@rochester.rr.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">kdraper2@rochester.rr.com</a>;<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">wastemin1@verizon.net</a></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span>Re: Continuing in response to Crispin and James</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Thank you for the useful information.</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Crispin, although I am not sure I am as sanguine as you about the limited relative importance of CH4 from char making, I think that your observations about the extent of anaerobic decomp and rain forests is sweet.</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">James, For those of us who are equipment challenged, your observations about temperature are great. While measuring CH4 may be difficult, temp is easy. We know, for example, that our stacks run at 900 C + which explains why we have no CH4 emissions.</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Your suggestion re temp also suggests a simple way to test for the possibility of CH4 - inserting temp probes, say 4 or 5, stacked one above the other from burn surface up. If the probes routinely fail to break 690 C, we have every reason to worry.</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">M</div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div>..<br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="elided-text" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div dir="ltr" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">On Sun, Feb 24, 2019, 10:53 AM Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:<br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div><blockquote class="" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; line-height: 1.22em; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204);"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;">Crispin,<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;">Thank you. Well stated.<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;">One question I have is about scale. A TLUD stove or 1000 of them together are still small. But would a full size Kon Tiki flame-cap kiln (or 100 of them) alter the scenario that you describe? I am asking for your opinion, because there never have been 100 large flame-cap kilns operating together, so measured results are not possible. And consider that they could be well operated (no winds) vs. poorly operated (windy day with damp fuel). In other words, would scale up in very large numbers alter your statements?<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;">With respect for alternative explanations, or for some confirmation, I hope that some who are more informed than I am (the chemist types) to make comments. Also, there should be opportunity for those who published papers (or the peer reviewers) to respond. I hope that Hans-Peter might comment on this aspect.<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;">To All: Please note, we seek clarification, not to make one person correct and another person incorrect. The instruments for measurement can give sufficient rationale for some statements.<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;">On the other hand, if this large discussion about methane-during-char-making is essentially concluded without much more discussion, then your (Crispin’s) comments will be circulated and saved and quoted in subsequent discussions about PyCCS and climate impact. Let’s get it right, as best we can.<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;">Note: As I was writing the above, an excellent additional message was posted by James Joyce. I have appended that message below after the one by Crispin.<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;">Paul<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;">Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;">Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;">Email:<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Verdana;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(5, 99, 193);">psanders@ilstu.edu</span></a><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span>Skype: paultlud<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;">Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;">Website:<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drtlud.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C24548fe6aa4e40beeceb08d69a993563%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636866380144249848&sdata=EioetWpn6w0iO6ow0qdWZjOjXceb8adQ74COZkY9qwk%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="http://www.drtlud.com" shash="mOHrv3Fh9bjNFG58/4msOpWcmNRYzzLG7+2hcI8u83mxwI/FmYzr+KERbctWe39F9N6NnsHk8lbtZGbwNU968BHFYfnMbTnXCyOgp7dkJ+vn1/FHpPczay045dspdE6TqcpijFO3ytjaNfgQ2Cy8dx5IGMmD09uN6NpSNF2hSzU=" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Verdana;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(5, 99, 193);">www.drtlud.com</span></a><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p></div><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Verdana;">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span>Saturday, February 23, 2019 3:38 PM<br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span>Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Verdana;">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>;<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><a href="mailto:d.michael.shafer@gmail.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Verdana;">d.michael.shafer@gmail.com</a>; biochar <<a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Verdana;">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a>><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span>Stove Discussion <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Verdana;">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>; Hans-Peter Schmidt <<a href="mailto:schmidt@ithaka-institut.org" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Verdana;">schmidt@ithaka-institut.org</a>>; Kathleen Draper <<a href="mailto:kdraper2@rochester.rr.com" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Verdana;">kdraper2@rochester.rr.com</a>>; Hugh McLaughlin <<a href="mailto:wastemin1@verizon.net" class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family: Verdana;">wastemin1@verizon.net</a>><br class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><b class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span>Re: [biochar] Methane from char-makers [1 Attachment]<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p></div></div><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></p><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);">Dear Paul<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);">Since you asked:<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);">Measurement of methane is done using a CxHy detector (which burns it, if it is cheap, makes it glow if it is expensive). Such a device is in the NDIR detector of the 500 and 700 series of ENERAC combustion analyzers. They measure CO2, CO and CxHy with the same cell.<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);">The main point is that the exact molecule sought is not accurate, it is "centered'. This means the detector is set to report CH4 (which is C1H4 and thus a CxHy) in the centre of its detection range. You could have it set to C2H6 if you wanted. It will report "CxHy" but it is really the combination of several different gases with the methane reported mostly.<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);">So the detection of methane accurately is not really available in small, inexpensive devices.<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);">The numbers you cite for the CO2e of methane are unusually high. There is extremely little methane in the atmosphere inspire of thousands of points of leakage of natural gas (seeps) into the atmosphere. That low value is because it is quickly converted to CO2. Further, there a host of critters that take it directly for food.<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);">The idea that charcoal making could produce enough methane to be detectable against the huge natural leakage is far fetched. There is a large cloud of detectable methane over all tropical forests created by rotting wood. That is far more than could ever be produced by turning the wood waste into charcoal.<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);">Anytime you want to paint some scary scenario you should force people to put numbers on it so it can be viewed in perspective. It takes place in a context where there are huge natural processes in place.<span class="Apple-converted-space" style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);"><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><p class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(64, 96, 191);">Taken together, turning wood into charcoal or cooking with wood waste and making charcoal, in the context of domestic cooking cannot meaningfully dent anything.<u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u><u class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></u></span></p></div><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;"><br class="webkit-block-placeholder" style="line-height: 1.22em;"></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><span class="" style="line-height: 1.22em; 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margin: 0px 0px 1em;" class=""><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em; color: rgb(255, 255, 255); height: 0px;" class="">__._,_.___</div><div style="line-height: 1.22em; clear: both;" class=""></div><div id="fromDMARC" style="line-height: 1.22em; margin-top: 10px;" class=""><hr style="line-height: 1.22em; height: 2px; border-width: 0px; color: rgb(227, 227, 227); background-color: rgb(227, 227, 227);" class="">Posted by: Gordon West <<a href="mailto:gordon.west@rtnewmexico.com" style="line-height: 1.22em;" class="">gordon.west@rtnewmexico.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><hr style="line-height: 1.22em; height: 2px; border-width: 0px; color: rgb(227, 227, 227); background-color: rgb(227, 227, 227);" class=""></div><div style="line-height: 1.22em; clear: both;" class=""></div><table cellspacing="4px" style="line-height: 1.22em; font-size: inherit; margin-top: 10px; margin-bottom: 10px; color: rgb(45, 80, 253);" class=""><tbody style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><tr style="line-height: 1.22em;" class=""><td style="line-height: 1.22em; 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