<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small">Julien;</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small">Was there ever emissions testing on this device? It seems to have the turbulence and mixing necessary for reasonably complete combustion.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small">Norm</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 10:01 AM <<a href="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Stoves mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: More about concentrators. (Julien Winter)<br>
2. Re: More about concentrators. (Norman Baker)<br>
3. Re: More about concentrators. (Julien Winter)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 19:41:36 -0400<br>
From: Julien Winter <<a href="mailto:winter.julien@gmail.com" target="_blank">winter.julien@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: "Anderson, Paul" <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>, Discussion of biomass<br>
cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] More about concentrators.<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CALv4xTxph8DGACC9HzkdKfsjpRBbwPPSmw79ccyqSPdpcXzWUA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CALv4xTxph8DGACC9HzkdKfsjpRBbwPPSmw79ccyqSPdpcXzWUA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hi Norm;<br>
<br>
The nozzle discussed above would replace a concentrator ring in a ND-TLUD<br>
cookstove, or go at the bottom of an internal riser burner.<br>
<br>
For a 55 gallon TLUD, a nozzle can be adapted from black stove pipe<br>
expanding/reducing connectors. There is a picture of one (attached) that I<br>
built in 2013, following the advice of David Yarrow. It is a 35 gallon<br>
drum inside of a 55 gallon drum. David suggested cutting diagonal slits in<br>
the side of the expanding connector to create a tertiary air entry point.<br>
Later, I attached three cable guy-wires, with turn-buckles, to stabilize<br>
the stack. I don't have it any more. I gave it away to a friend.<br>
<br>
For these nozzles, I assume that there is a large degree of mixing of<br>
secondary air and pyrolytic gases before they enter the nozzle.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Julien.<br>
<br>
On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 12:53 PM Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Julien;<br>
><br>
> I'm not sure I entirely understand where you put the nozzle? Where would<br>
> you suggest in my 55 gal. TLUD?<br>
><br>
> Norm<br>
><br>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 6:58 AM Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Julien, (and to the Stoves Listserv, and for posting at my website<br>
>> <a href="http://www.drtlud.com/eposts" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com/eposts</a> )<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Interesting.<br>
>><br>
>> Are the nozzles with slanted walls (like in a funnel) or with straight<br>
>> sides? What diameters at each end for what sized of TLUD gasifiers?<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Paul<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br>
>><br>
>> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<br>
>><br>
>> Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud<br>
>><br>
>> Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<br>
>><br>
>> Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> *From:* Julien Winter <<a href="mailto:winter.julien@gmail.com" target="_blank">winter.julien@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 28, 2019 8:31 AM<br>
>> *To:* Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>><br>
>><br>
>> Hi Norm;<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Instead of a concentrator ring, try a nozzle. A nozzle brings the<br>
>> burning gases together without the shape edges of a concentrator ring.<br>
>> The sharp edges could generate soot. A nozzle has smooth edges. TLUD<br>
>> nozzles are being manufactured, but they are being misused!! People are<br>
>> turning them upside down and using them to load mason jars with food. So,<br>
>> you can find TLUD nozzels on the shelves for food canning supplies in<br>
>> hardware stores.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> The reason why I got into the stove burner design business about five<br>
>> years ago was because when I used concentrator rings, I got deposits on the<br>
>> bottom of pots.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Cheers,<br>
>><br>
>> Julien.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:47 AM Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Paul;<br>
>><br>
>> I assume you mean the diameter of the stack or combustor? In prior tests<br>
>> with concentrator rings, a whole that has a diameter of 70% of the stack<br>
>> seem to be adequate. Lately, I have been going to about an 80%<br>
>> diameter. In one publication I read the stack diameter should be at least<br>
>> 60% of the feedstock barrel diameter. Otherwise the time needed for gases<br>
>> to exit the combustor became too fast and hence too short for complete<br>
>> combustion. Is this your experience? And how about the rest of you chiming<br>
>> in on this.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Norm<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 8:05 PM Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Norm,<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> In general, the diameter of the hole is about half of the diameter. But<br>
>> there might not be any visible (noticeable) impact if reduced or enlarge 10<br>
>> to 20% of the size of the hole. Trial and error are your best bets to get<br>
>> this refined.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> I look forward to hearing of your results.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> Paul<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Julien Winter<br>
Cobourg, ON, CANADA<br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 19:22:23 -0700<br>
From: Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Julien Winter <<a href="mailto:winter.julien@gmail.com" target="_blank">winter.julien@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: "Anderson, Paul" <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>, Discussion of biomass<br>
cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] More about concentrators.<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:CAEZw-BC4Lg_KPhQHdPaSuXe2Zepu6fBjfwmcGELp8s-E84LuHA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">CAEZw-BC4Lg_KPhQHdPaSuXe2Zepu6fBjfwmcGELp8s-E84LuHA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Julien;<br>
<br>
Thank you so much. Now that I see the nozzle, I remember it well. Seems<br>
like a good idea to promote mixing.<br>
<br>
The 55 gal. barrel has holes in the bottom like a TLUD? And, I assume the<br>
35 gal. is a retort?<br>
<br>
By the way, David Yarrow now lives just south of Olympia Washington where<br>
he is very active in a soils group called Nutriculture. Very interesting<br>
man.<br>
<br>
Norm<br>
<br>
On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 4:41 PM Julien Winter <<a href="mailto:winter.julien@gmail.com" target="_blank">winter.julien@gmail.com</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hi Norm;<br>
><br>
> The nozzle discussed above would replace a concentrator ring in a ND-TLUD<br>
> cookstove, or go at the bottom of an internal riser burner.<br>
><br>
> For a 55 gallon TLUD, a nozzle can be adapted from black stove pipe<br>
> expanding/reducing connectors. There is a picture of one (attached) that I<br>
> built in 2013, following the advice of David Yarrow. It is a 35 gallon<br>
> drum inside of a 55 gallon drum. David suggested cutting diagonal slits in<br>
> the side of the expanding connector to create a tertiary air entry point.<br>
> Later, I attached three cable guy-wires, with turn-buckles, to stabilize<br>
> the stack. I don't have it any more. I gave it away to a friend.<br>
><br>
> For these nozzles, I assume that there is a large degree of mixing of<br>
> secondary air and pyrolytic gases before they enter the nozzle.<br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
> Julien.<br>
><br>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 12:53 PM Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Julien;<br>
>><br>
>> I'm not sure I entirely understand where you put the nozzle? Where would<br>
>> you suggest in my 55 gal. TLUD?<br>
>><br>
>> Norm<br>
>><br>
>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 6:58 AM Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Julien, (and to the Stoves Listserv, and for posting at my website<br>
>>> <a href="http://www.drtlud.com/eposts" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com/eposts</a> )<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Interesting.<br>
>>><br>
>>> Are the nozzles with slanted walls (like in a funnel) or with straight<br>
>>> sides? What diameters at each end for what sized of TLUD gasifiers?<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Paul<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br>
>>><br>
>>> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<br>
>>><br>
>>> Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud<br>
>>><br>
>>> Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<br>
>>><br>
>>> Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> *From:* Julien Winter <<a href="mailto:winter.julien@gmail.com" target="_blank">winter.julien@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 28, 2019 8:31 AM<br>
>>> *To:* Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Hi Norm;<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Instead of a concentrator ring, try a nozzle. A nozzle brings the<br>
>>> burning gases together without the shape edges of a concentrator ring.<br>
>>> The sharp edges could generate soot. A nozzle has smooth edges. TLUD<br>
>>> nozzles are being manufactured, but they are being misused!! People are<br>
>>> turning them upside down and using them to load mason jars with food. So,<br>
>>> you can find TLUD nozzels on the shelves for food canning supplies in<br>
>>> hardware stores.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> The reason why I got into the stove burner design business about five<br>
>>> years ago was because when I used concentrator rings, I got deposits on the<br>
>>> bottom of pots.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Cheers,<br>
>>><br>
>>> Julien.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:47 AM Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Paul;<br>
>>><br>
>>> I assume you mean the diameter of the stack or combustor? In prior tests<br>
>>> with concentrator rings, a whole that has a diameter of 70% of the stack<br>
>>> seem to be adequate. Lately, I have been going to about an 80%<br>
>>> diameter. In one publication I read the stack diameter should be at least<br>
>>> 60% of the feedstock barrel diameter. Otherwise the time needed for gases<br>
>>> to exit the combustor became too fast and hence too short for complete<br>
>>> combustion. Is this your experience? And how about the rest of you chiming<br>
>>> in on this.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Norm<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 8:05 PM Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
>>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Norm,<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> In general, the diameter of the hole is about half of the diameter.<br>
>>> But there might not be any visible (noticeable) impact if reduced or<br>
>>> enlarge 10 to 20% of the size of the hole. Trial and error are your best<br>
>>> bets to get this refined.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> I look forward to hearing of your results.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Paul<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
><br>
> --<br>
> Julien Winter<br>
> Cobourg, ON, CANADA<br>
><br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:10:58 -0400<br>
From: Julien Winter <<a href="mailto:winter.julien@gmail.com" target="_blank">winter.julien@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: "Anderson, Paul" <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>, Discussion of biomass<br>
cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] More about concentrators.<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CALv4xTzRbcvp=<a href="mailto:i6sA7mcip3Xp5Cwd788bdjNVKKN2d7ZBQP02A@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">i6sA7mcip3Xp5Cwd788bdjNVKKN2d7ZBQP02A@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hi Norm;<br>
<br>
The photograph is of a double-walled TLUD with pre-heated secondary air.<br>
The 55 gal. drum has no bottom. The 35 gal drum is the TLUD reactor.<br>
<br>
However, I have put the same burner on at single-walled 55 gal. TLUD, with<br>
a gap between the top of the drum and the lid supporting the burner.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Julien.<br>
<br>
On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 10:22 PM Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Julien;<br>
><br>
> Thank you so much. Now that I see the nozzle, I remember it well. Seems<br>
> like a good idea to promote mixing.<br>
><br>
> The 55 gal. barrel has holes in the bottom like a TLUD? And, I assume the<br>
> 35 gal. is a retort?<br>
><br>
> By the way, David Yarrow now lives just south of Olympia Washington where<br>
> he is very active in a soils group called Nutriculture. Very interesting<br>
> man.<br>
><br>
> Norm<br>
><br>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 4:41 PM Julien Winter <<a href="mailto:winter.julien@gmail.com" target="_blank">winter.julien@gmail.com</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> Hi Norm;<br>
>><br>
>> The nozzle discussed above would replace a concentrator ring in a ND-TLUD<br>
>> cookstove, or go at the bottom of an internal riser burner.<br>
>><br>
>> For a 55 gallon TLUD, a nozzle can be adapted from black stove pipe<br>
>> expanding/reducing connectors. There is a picture of one (attached) that I<br>
>> built in 2013, following the advice of David Yarrow. It is a 35 gallon<br>
>> drum inside of a 55 gallon drum. David suggested cutting diagonal slits in<br>
>> the side of the expanding connector to create a tertiary air entry point.<br>
>> Later, I attached three cable guy-wires, with turn-buckles, to stabilize<br>
>> the stack. I don't have it any more. I gave it away to a friend.<br>
>><br>
>> For these nozzles, I assume that there is a large degree of mixing of<br>
>> secondary air and pyrolytic gases before they enter the nozzle.<br>
>><br>
>> Cheers,<br>
>> Julien.<br>
>><br>
>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 12:53 PM Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>><br>
>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Julien;<br>
>>><br>
>>> I'm not sure I entirely understand where you put the nozzle? Where would<br>
>>> you suggest in my 55 gal. TLUD?<br>
>>><br>
>>> Norm<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 6:58 AM Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
>>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>> Julien, (and to the Stoves Listserv, and for posting at my website<br>
>>>> <a href="http://www.drtlud.com/eposts" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com/eposts</a> )<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Interesting.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Are the nozzles with slanted walls (like in a funnel) or with straight<br>
>>>> sides? What diameters at each end for what sized of TLUD gasifiers?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Paul<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> Skype: paultlud<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> *From:* Julien Winter <<a href="mailto:winter.julien@gmail.com" target="_blank">winter.julien@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 28, 2019 8:31 AM<br>
>>>> *To:* Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Hi Norm;<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Instead of a concentrator ring, try a nozzle. A nozzle brings the<br>
>>>> burning gases together without the shape edges of a concentrator ring.<br>
>>>> The sharp edges could generate soot. A nozzle has smooth edges. TLUD<br>
>>>> nozzles are being manufactured, but they are being misused!! People are<br>
>>>> turning them upside down and using them to load mason jars with food. So,<br>
>>>> you can find TLUD nozzels on the shelves for food canning supplies in<br>
>>>> hardware stores.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> The reason why I got into the stove burner design business about five<br>
>>>> years ago was because when I used concentrator rings, I got deposits on the<br>
>>>> bottom of pots.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Cheers,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Julien.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:47 AM Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>><br>
>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Paul;<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I assume you mean the diameter of the stack or combustor? In<br>
>>>> prior tests with concentrator rings, a whole that has a diameter of 70% of<br>
>>>> the stack seem to be adequate. Lately, I have been going to about an 80%<br>
>>>> diameter. In one publication I read the stack diameter should be at least<br>
>>>> 60% of the feedstock barrel diameter. Otherwise the time needed for gases<br>
>>>> to exit the combustor became too fast and hence too short for complete<br>
>>>> combustion. Is this your experience? And how about the rest of you chiming<br>
>>>> in on this.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Norm<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 8:05 PM Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br>
>>>> wrote:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Norm,<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> In general, the diameter of the hole is about half of the diameter.<br>
>>>> But there might not be any visible (noticeable) impact if reduced or<br>
>>>> enlarge 10 to 20% of the size of the hole. Trial and error are your best<br>
>>>> bets to get this refined.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> I look forward to hearing of your results.<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Paul<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Julien Winter<br>
>> Cobourg, ON, CANADA<br>
>><br>
><br>
<br>
-- <br>
Julien Winter<br>
Cobourg, ON, CANADA<br>
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