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--></style></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink="#954F72"><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Nikhil,</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>My remarks were directed toward what appeared to me to be a promotion of fossil fuels on a biomass stoves list, which to me is not appropriate. I intended no lecture on economics. Why do you promote fossil fuels on a biomass stoves list? </p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>I will need to consider further Dr. Anderson’s contribution before forming an opinion on it. </p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Getting back to stoves, my latest is that I have been doing experiments on a novel technique for adding dwell time for the flame in a TLUD-ND stove. The technique uses stationary air foil wing shapes in the combustor (after the stationary fan that spins the flame), and directs the spinning flame slightly outward and downward. This forms a ring of flame below the wing shapes, and only about half of the flame gets above the wings. Soot on the cooking vessel is very light. This technique is probably not useable in a commercial stove because the wings get red hot and so will have a short life span, but perhaps the concept will find some use at some point. If anyone on the list is interested I will start a new thread and post some pictures.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Kirk H.</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Sent from <a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">Mail</a> for Windows 10</p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div style='mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='border:none;padding:0in'><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com">Nikhil Desai</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Sunday, May 26, 2019 11:08 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</a><br><b>Cc: </b><a href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net">gkharris316@comcast.net</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] SUBSIDY for new CO2e emissions tops US$150 per ton</p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Kirk H.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You are supposing and pre-supposing too much.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I suggest you find a definition of subsidy in an encyclopedia or dictionary of economics before you lecture me about economics.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal>Nikhil Desai<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>+1 202 568 5831<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Skype: nikhildesai888<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On May 26, 2019, at 7:03 PM, Kirk H. <<a href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net">gkharris316@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>Nikhil,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Once again supporting fossil fuels on a biofuels list. Are you working for a fossil fuel corporation? How about helping promote biofuels so they can take over their share of the load, instead of writing biofuels off and promoting fossil fuels. Perhaps you really should be on a fossil fuels list, promoting biofuels. Dr. Anderson is doing what needs to be done to promote biomass stoves and biomass fuels overall.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Kirk H.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Sent from <a href="https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986">Mail</a> for Windows 10<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b>From: </b><a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com">Nikhil Desai</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Sunday, May 26, 2019 1:58 PM<br><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</a><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] SUBSIDY for new CO2e emissions tops US$150 per ton<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Paul:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>IMF has second rate economists,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>All this subsidy computation is as much fakery and bluffing as aDALYs.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Be thankful that fossil fuel production and use pays the taxes on which world governments run.<o:p></o:p></p><div id=AppleMailSignature><p class=MsoNormal>Nikhil Desai<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>+1 202 568 5831<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Skype: nikhildesai888<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On May 26, 2019, at 10:02 AM, Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal>To all, <u>(Please forward to your contacts) (Can we reach the politicians and media and the public?)</u><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>The citizens of the world are PAYING the fossil fuel industries to ADD more tons of Greenhouse Gases to the atmosphere. See the calculations below.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>It is time to stop the subsidies!!!! <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Even further, the providers of NEW CO2 emissions should be PAYING a “carbon fee and dividend” as proposed by the Citizens’ Climate Lobby (CCL) <a href="https://citizensclimatelobby.org/energy-innovation-and-carbon-dividend-act/">https://citizensclimatelobby.org/energy-innovation-and-carbon-dividend-act/</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Paul S. Anderson <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div style='border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'> <b><i>The following was prepared recently by Albert Bates to show the calculations to determine: </i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'><b><i> </i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'><b><i><u>How much SUBSIDY is being paid to the fossil fuel businesses per ton of CO2e emissions. </u></i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'><b><i> </i></b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'><b><i>Please distribute widely.</i></b> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'>First posted by: Albert Bates <<a href="mailto:albert@thefarm.org">albert@thefarm.org</a>> at the <a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">biochar@yahoogroups.com</a> listserv <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'>on May 26, 2019.<o:p></o:p></p><div id=ygrp-mlmsg><div id=ygrp-msg><div style='margin-top:7.5pt' id=fromDMARC><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'><br>For current global subsidies, I was using the IMF numbers, which are <br>also supported by Carbon Tracker and were reported in The Guardian in <br>2017 <br><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2017/aug/07/fossil-fuel-subsidies-are-a-staggering-5-tn-per-year">https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2017/aug/07/fossil-fuel-subsidies-are-a-staggering-5-tn-per-year</a><br><br>The reported number was $4.9 tn in 2013 and that rose to $5.3 tn in <br>2015. Taking that forward to 2019 (subsidies have accelerated, not <br>slowed, but I used a constant) I got $6.9 trillion. On the webinar I <br>rounded that to $7 tn.<br><br>Global emissions were 37.1 gigatonnes CO2 in 2018. <br><a href="https://www.wri.org/blog/2018/12/new-global-co2-emissions-numbers-are-they-re-not-good">https://www.wri.org/blog/2018/12/new-global-co2-emissions-numbers-are-they-re-not-good</a><br><br>Divide 6.9 e12 by 37.1 e9 and you get $185.98 per ton. I used $150 just <br>to be conservative because if you use the validated 2015 number it would <br>be $142.85. This is what taxpayers pay emitters to make and release CO2.<br><br>I believe that emissions are understated because I believe fugitive <br>emissions are poorly accounted for. One could also make the case for <br>elevated permafrost and deforestation additions being anthropogenic. So <br>the calculation is still a bit squirrely, but it is in the ballpark.<br><br>Albert<br>The Farm POB 90 Summertown TN 38483-0090 USA<br>931-964-4324 (o) • 52-1998-116-5532 (mex) • 931-242-3796 (usa) •<br>44-782-764-6237 (uk) • 13-867-154-171 (prc)<br>Facebook/WhatsApp/WeChat/LinkedIn/<br>Global Village Institute for Appropriate Technology<br>Global Ecovillage Network • Gaia University<br>_<a href="http://gvix.org_">http://gvix.org_</a><br>_<a href="http://albertbates.cool_">http://albertbates.cool_</a><br>_<a href="http://medium.com/@albertbates_">http://medium.com/@albertbates_</a><br>_<a href="http://eco2.cool_">http://eco2.cool_</a><br>_BURN: USING FIRE TO COOL THE EARTH_<br><a href="http://facebook.com/carboncascades">http://facebook.com/carboncascades</a><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'>*************************************<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'>Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'>Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><span style='color:#0563C1'>psanders@ilstu.edu</span></a> Skype: paultlud<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'>Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile: 309-531-4434<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com"><span style='color:#0563C1'>www.drtlud.com</span></a> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:3.0in'>See also: <a href="http://www.capitalism21.org">www.capitalism21.org</a> for insights about solutions<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:1.5in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:1.5in'>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:5.0pt;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>