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<div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" style="width:100%">Dear Friends</div>
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<div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" style="width:100%">It is at times like this that a little instrumentation is helpful. Generally speaking there is too much air passing through an fire. It is rare to find a stove with inadequate air.
Increasing the rate of flow through a charcoal is most likely to increase the production of CO. </div>
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<div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" style="width:100%">Aprovecho did an experiment some years ago which was reported here. It involved adding a fan to a charcoal in the expectation that the fire would burn hotter (which it did) and that
it would result in less CO (it produced more - much more). </div>
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<div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" style="width:100%">If you look at how the Envirofit charcoal stove works, it goes some way to reduce the CO and increase heat transfer. Another is the Indonesian Anglo Supra Nova. It has controllable
primary air and preheated secondary air. These are the things that matter. </div>
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<div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" style="width:100%">Regards </div>
<div name="BB10" id="BB10_response_div_BBPPID" dir="auto" style="width:100%">Crispin </div>
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<div id="from"><b>From:</b> gkharris316@comcast.net</div>
<div id="sent"><b>Sent:</b> October 30, 2019 8:10 PM</div>
<div id="to"><b>To:</b> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org; crispinpigott@outlook.com; info@sun24.solar</div>
<div id="subject"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Improving cooking with charcoal</div>
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<p>All,</p>
<p>I look at my Stove Tec charcoal stove and note that it has a grate that lets air into the charcoal from below. This gives a hotter and more lively flame than burning on a solid surface. The rocks would do the same thing, providing better air flow. Reducing
the charcoal quantity would reduce the air flow resistance through the fuel, again improving air flow. This hotter more lively flame, with effective secondary air mixing, will burn the CO better. Sam at Aprovecho has done a lot of research on burning charcoal,
and would be one of those to be consulted. He also found that if the CO passes through a flame it burns better, which makes sense because when it meets the secondary air, it will be preheated and the flame will provide an ignition source. Providing adequate
air, space, time and heat to keep a CO flame going above the charcoal will help eliminate CO emissions. I don't see anything new with the rocks, just a good application of existing knowledge.<br>
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<p>Kirk H.</p>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/30/2019 4:13 PM, Ronal Larson wrote:<br>
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<div class="">Crispin, Kevin, List, cc Christa</div>
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>Note change in thread title. The previous were under the name “no subject”- which wouldn’t help researchers not around for this thread (which is going well).<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre">
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>1. My comments below were started before responding to a similar message from Christa Roth - just sent. So later readers please go back to that "no subject" thread that was started
a few weeks ago by Kevin - reporting on three simple tests in three different African countries (also identified below - now up to 4). All show major efficiency improvements when small stones and/or a second grate are added to an existing charcoal-using stove.</div>
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>2. The main points for Kevin and others are (and hope others will disagree or add/subtract):</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- use a water boiling test - not a cooking test. The latter is too subjective on the right termination time, and is difficult to replicate. Also doesn’t give the needed comparative
information on power and efficiency.</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- use at least two standard fuel amounts; maybe 0.3 and 1 kg (this now being the main discussion topic)</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- report something on the char - especially the size distribution. (Which itself can be another test parameter). Maybe a statement like “32 pieces in the 1 kg - with a max/min range
less than 2:1”</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- report on the details of starting the fire. (Amount of Leaves, paper, alcohol, wax etc). See below on using a metal tube.</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- details on the cook pot</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- the amount of water should match the stove’s intended use - maybe 2 or (not and) 5 liters; of course measure the amount boiled away. Report elevation, etc</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- times are important. Measure the time to get fire started and put pot on, b) time to boil and stop the test- c) stop time - maybe 1 hour max, and d) time to tend Don’t worry now
about hot and cold starts</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- assume 30 MJ/kg for the char, unless you have more information. The right equations for per levels, energy used, and efficiency are all over the place.</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- give several photos of the stoves - with dimensions. So others can compare or try to duplicate</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- Its fine to use unskilled testers - to save money. Let approved labs worry about CO, PM2.5 etc. Amateurs (school kids) can do the above test outline well enough. </div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- your four reported tests could be improved, but almost anyone using a stove can help with numerical data. We need a lot. Your four reporters all did well.</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- cooking tests are not to be discouraged - but after water boiling tests. After you’ve picked a best (which could include economics on the costs (and benefits) of an extra grate or
two.)</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- next tests can/should progress to details on the number and size of the (free) stones and the number of grates. Two extra grates (and stones on one or both sides) may still improve
the efficiency further.</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- report little details - the sizes of the pot and stove (air gaps both vertically and radially), etc</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- report the amount of time spent tending the fire. If there is air control, explain that.</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>- Lastly - plentiful details on the two main parameters now needing study - the stones and the grates (materials, thicknesses,- not just the diameter(s) and the number of holes).</div>
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>3. Concentrate all tests and discussions on stones and extra grates. They are the issue now - not the amount of char to be loaded or where the best location for air holes, stove materials,
etc. We need examples of dozens if not hundreds of stove designs - if we are ever going to figure out how to optimize the main new parameters - stones and grate numbers.</div>
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<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>Kevin - thanks for putting all you time and energy in on these mods that don’t seem in any way possible to pay for your expenses to date (including going to Nairobi - please keep us
informed on whether this subject came up with anyone.)</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>And next we can talk about charcoal-making stoves - which should make money, not just save it.</div>
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Ron</div>
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<div class="">On Oct 27, 2019, at 1:28 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div>
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Dear Kevin </div>
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This is an interesting exploration that may yield consistent benefits is someone is using that rather dreadful device. </div>
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There are dozens of charcoal combustors in Africa and the one shown is one of the worst. Given that there are far better devices for burning charcoal, not to mention better ways to load the fuel, I am too surprised that just about anything you do would not
improve it. </div>
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Cecil Cook and I assisted GTZ's ProBEC North in the period 2007-2010 to improve the appalling charcoal waste in Lusaka. Cecil came up with an interesting analysis which was the result of interviewing users about how much money they could save before their
pockets "grew holes". It was a bout 10 days income. Any stove that costs more than that was unlike to sell no matter what it did. </div>
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A second thing observed was the widespread used of a metal tube as a chimney to speed the ignition. It seems the second test was conducted without lighting the fuel properly. I wonder if the tube was used for these tests. </div>
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<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">[RWL: This is an important practical piece of advise. Can probably save 10 minutes in the testing</b></div>
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Two additional things that would make testing more convincing. First, there is far too much fuel in the stove. Do people really use a kg and light the whole thing to cook a meal? I would expect something between 500 and 700 g. </div>
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Second is that one should never have a pot sitting directly on the charcoal. It cannot possibly burn properly with the pot sitting on the fuel extinguishing the flames. </div>
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<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">[RWL: I think you have to place the pot on the char if that is local practice. Can do both. </b></div>
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That stove usually has the pot sitting on top of the lip of the stove with the fuel burning under it. The pot seals to the stove and the gases exit through the holes. That is why (in part) it is such a terrible cooker. It has poor aeration and very high CO
contributing to its performance. </div>
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More than ten years ago a much better stove was introduced, a metal version of the Maputo Ceramic Stove developed by a retired German metal worker from the MCS. This costs more than the one in the report, which I recall sells for about $1.50. </div>
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<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">[RWL: Any cite possible?</b><br class="">
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If that is the device someone is using, and the addition of the stones improves performance consistently, by all means continue. I'd like to see it operated with half the fuel loaded to represent more closely the typical pattern of use. I can't see the theoretical
basis for the additional plate making any difference save that if it is loose, air can flow around the edge perhaps burning off some of the CO generated in the midst of the fire. As can be seen in the photo, elevating the fuel above the lip gets it into the
open air where it can burn better. It's is still pretty awful, though. </div>
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<b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>[RWL: I can’t yet see the theoretical reasons either - which is why I am pushing this thread (I keep saying Kevin has brought us two new important ideas - backed up by four reports working
with very different stove (and earlier with wood-burning. This list can make this discovery get moving faster. Kevin’s report this year on stones with the 3-stone fire is already reported to have been adopted by million in one small part of one small country
- saving 40-50% of the wood!</b><br class="">
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The Malgache stove popular in West and Central Africa is better from several points of view including that it elevates the pot above the fuel. </div>
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If you want to burn charcoal reasonably well there should be 50mm vertical space between the fuel and the pot. That region should be sheltered from cross winds and aeration should be provided that reaches almost to the centre, if possible. </div>
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As to the retention of heat in the stones, there is no doubt they will get hot. The main benefit of stored heat in a stove is to keep the char burning more completely as the fire dies. </div>
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How a bout trying the experiment again using 350 g of charcoal and break it up so it can burn at a rate high enough to provide the cooking power needed. The fuel particle surface to volume ratio defines this. If you want more power, get more surface area burning
at the same time. It should fit into the space under the pot when it is sitting on the stove lip. </div>
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<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span><b class="">[RWL: See my comment above on reporting on fuel sizes.</b></div>
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It is can cook with 200 g there would still be lots left. </div>
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Incidentally when burning a kg of charcoal and stopping with most of it left over, you should report the energy liberated as that of the charcoal ash-free (AF). This is because all the original ash in the fuel is still there at the end, which means the missing
mass is combustible, not "average charcoal". Suppose the ash is 10%. Then the missing 200 g mass has the energy of 200/0.9 g = 222 g of charcoal with ash in it. </div>
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Regards </div>
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Crispin </div>
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<div id="from" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:info@sun24.solar" class="">info@sun24.solar</a></div>
<div id="sent" class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>October 27, 2019 9:01 AM</div>
<div id="to" class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a></div>
<div id="reply_to" class=""><b class="">Reply to:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a></div>
<div id="subject" class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] (no subject)</div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Here is a<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F167i50oweyfe23bRMnDSeJwlu0eM4IgTek6IO2C6JPes%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing&data=02%7C01%7C%7C15947d12c5744b42ec6808d75d96b59d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637080774180963665&sdata=8IAfPFes%2Btny8vRlhK2u1wHD%2FmvUr%2BzXWU6aVt4Lzhk%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://docs.google.com/document/d/167i50oweyfe23bRMnDSeJwlu0eM4IgTek6IO2C6JPes/edit?usp=sharing" shash="cG1vBV5qXUSYLnPoBCfEypsVbwR4CyXoj2HBszBvW/PqVMcVGCulxqDVyLON4gJvy/+0ZAUWbCNa7C2yfaAJTMP1ZPakXMZtRs/y0wuaoEciHkYImNIsCb3ubj7vT+ivfvBdJtSbIorLC07P8l+ZrpDH+vuAoXbCXCt7QUYJ3AE=" class="">report
from Zambia</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>indicating that the rock bed and second metal grate improve the efficiency of the Zambian mbaula (all-metal) charcoal jiko by 41%. Cooking time is also greatly reduced. While these testers have no
training, their results are consistent.</div>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">This is such a simple modification that dissemination could be very rapid. I hope some of you can try this. </div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 1:37 PM K McLean <<a href="mailto:info@sun24.solar" class="">info@sun24.solar</a>> wrote:<br class="">
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<div class="gmail_default">Listmates,</div>
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<div class="gmail_default">Has anyone tried this?</div>
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<div class="gmail_default">We seem to have significantly increased the efficiency of charcoal jikos by putting a bed of rocks on the jiko's grate and putting second metal grate on the rock bed. The charcoal goes on the second metal grate. 2-3 cm rocks work.
It works in all metal jikos and clay jikos that we've tested. </div>
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<div class="gmail_default">Our testing is early and unscientific, but consistent. 25-50% less fuel used. Here are three reports. The Sierra Leone report has good photos at the bottom.</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.38; margin-top:0pt; margin-bottom:0pt"><a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdrive.google.com%2Ffile%2Fd%2F12MvBKjxq6PCGCcCHAjSYSeVXXvl7jWjD%2Fview%3Fusp%3Dsharing&data=02%7C01%7C%7C15947d12c5744b42ec6808d75d96b59d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637080774180973674&sdata=dHLNWQXrCt3QytJAJfpzTJ3FGK5ELkyTjbrWdG5cmAs%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://drive.google.com/file/d/12MvBKjxq6PCGCcCHAjSYSeVXXvl7jWjD/view?usp=sharing" shash="ZKsfnzAiXGtI6HWvAlZ/PgGthrnZwZ4L1a2tlcoCYto/wECQkbY5U+9zBVdK4/YS/caKTHAgkys8/VEcF5gVgKt8TE3/+Jv/l3ovKCBtSw0CARNfrwJo/Q/yoEb2RFiGUNsYIfZ33BIDy4F5Fn1yPk+UogNN1foMyp2CaDHa+7c=" class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:arial; background-color:transparent; vertical-align:baseline; white-space:pre-wrap">Sierra
Leone</span></a></div>
<div class="" style="line-height:1.38; margin-top:0pt; margin-bottom:0pt"><a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdrive.google.com%2Fopen%3Fid%3D1zQIY49E1vrfjYl7t5V_shvw70d67QirGWUrbW51tDxo&data=02%7C01%7C%7C15947d12c5744b42ec6808d75d96b59d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637080774180973674&sdata=CC%2FwJ1vHsw7ZpUCkWKXKEnbqH%2Bz30t2qSsM0Zn7owME%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://drive.google.com/open?id=1zQIY49E1vrfjYl7t5V_shvw70d67QirGWUrbW51tDxo" shash="wsZBH7++8hgMzqip/z3i6USa3SeZbIor76M5oujc3Yo/tapv7yeS9KxzRQRfY/0ebe5PCRXCM8hec9kEF/WU24q0zh61Op3ZpoyFJ/qCy1C1BzNvQMiqWsdT4/gUMilNsNxZ6hisZg6IhNSiQeO5gzsMA+1joeqI3gokvWpDMm0=" class=""><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:arial; background-color:transparent; vertical-align:baseline; white-space:pre-wrap">Uganda</span></a></div>
<div class="" style="line-height:1.38; margin-top:0pt; margin-bottom:0pt"><span class="" style="font-size:10pt; font-family:arial; background-color:transparent; vertical-align:baseline; white-space:pre-wrap"><a href="https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdrive.google.com%2Fopen%3Fid%3D1MPwHCwKEVqJvuybKB5Yj39nr8fbcopBP&data=02%7C01%7C%7C15947d12c5744b42ec6808d75d96b59d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637080774180983684&sdata=x1yR66qIAHsdxbYffbjdKpD%2BtEFsorfBPELWZfuJdQk%3D&reserved=0" originalsrc="https://drive.google.com/open?id=1MPwHCwKEVqJvuybKB5Yj39nr8fbcopBP" shash="mLoaCF27UZ/RHfCny51hDx0E4aoHilOmYTVW+erfqp6sxR+9JOvaXEnc7SLfdgoOrfYNaAi6bu+EpMvM2BRiqdbcErtJDpQYkYpQnFeYs7Rlxzi4P+Gnq8RYCiwnA0L6881AMuWLTCJPGHBF3eiTxFHuuMRpcKBUC9p5FGiDuQU=" class="">Kenya
(very few rocks)</a></span></div>
<div class="" style="line-height:1.38; margin-top:0pt; margin-bottom:0pt">(The report authors are untrained and not native English speakers. Especially the Kenya report contains many errors. Please focus on the consistent final conclusion that a rock bed and
second metal grate significantly reduce firewood usage.)</div>
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<div class="gmail_default">This may be a very low cost, very easy way to greatly improved the efficiency of charcoal jikos. I'd like to hear if there is already a body of work on this. Here is my rough drawing:</div>
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<div class="">Thank you,<br class="">
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<div class="">Kevin</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class=""><i class="">Kevin McLean, President</i></div>
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