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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Subject:
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<td>Re: [Stoves] Improving cooking with charcoal</td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">Date: </th>
<td>Sun, 3 Nov 2019 09:58:43 -0800</td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">From: </th>
<td>Harris, Kirk <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net"><gkharris316@comcast.net></a></td>
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<th valign="BASELINE" nowrap="nowrap" align="RIGHT">To: </th>
<td>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a></td>
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Hi All,</div>
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<div class="moz-forward-container">I have been thinking further on
this question. The rocks have a very small contact surface with
the ground, and so the heat flow to the ground from the rocks is
small. This means that the rocks will get quite hot. Two things
here, the charcoal will be kept hotter then if it was on the
ground, and the rocks will present considerable surface area to
the incoming air and so preheat it. Also the hot coals which fall
between the rocks will preheat the incoming air. These may have
something to do with the improved performance of the rock bed.
Also, the char which falls to the ground between the rocks will
produce CO, which has air to burn just below and directly inside
the charcoal fuel stack, helping to keep it very hot. There may
be other advantageous chemical reactions which have to do with
reduction, or the interaction of water vapor, which I know very
little about. Perhaps some or you, like maybe Crispin, could help
with this question.</div>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
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<div class="moz-forward-container">Kirk H.</div>
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<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p>Hi All,</p>
<p><b class="">"We still don’t have an explanation why."</b></p>
<p><span class="">I'll give it a shot.</span><b class=""> </b><span
class="">Going back to the fire triangle telling us what is
necessary for a fire, we need fuel, oxygen, and heat. I also
like to add mixing and time because fuel and oxygen cannot
burn if they don't come into contact with each other (mixing),
and chemical reactions take some time to occur. Which of
these is being effected by the stones? Certainly there is
more oxygen because air is able to pass between the stones to
feed the fire from below. A fire on a solid surface may loose
heat to that surface, and the stones would reduce that
surface, keeping more heat in the fire. Char may fall between
the stones giving more surface area for burning, increasing
mixing. All of these could increase the heat, keeping a flame
burning above the charcoal, unless the cooking vessel is
placed directly on the charcoal, which would extinguish the
flame. If there is a CO flame above the charcoal then the CO,
which is a flammable fuel, will be burned, eliminating it from
the exhaust, and increasing the available cooking heat. </span></p>
<p>Kirk H.<br>
</p>
<p><b class=""><br>
</b></p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/3/2019 7:59 AM, Ronal Larson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:450A249C-D9D9-4BE2-9380-3948F0C82A52@comcast.net">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<div class="">Liat, Kevin, Crispin</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>See
inserts.<br class="">
<div><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 3, 2019, at 6:12 AM, K McLean <<a
href="mailto:info@sun24.solar" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">info@sun24.solar</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-size:small">Regardless
of the pros and cons of making and cooking with
charcoal, charcoal will be used for cooking by many,
many people for decades to come. Isn't the vast
majority of charcoal produced in the same dirty way it
was produced a fifty years ago? And doesn't the vast
majority cook with charcoal essentially the same way
as fifty years ago? Let's find more methods to
improve both production and usage, methods that people
will readily adopt. Kevin</div>
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<b class="">[RWL1: I agree with all. I hope the emphasis in
this thread can only be on usage (see thread name
- “Improving cooking with charcoal”). So below, I excise
everything except Kevin’s surprising announcement from four
countries (Zambia, Sierra Leone, Uganda, Kenya) ]that
adding rocks and extra grates (no cost and low cost
respectively) apparently gave MUCH (>40%) improved
cooking performance. We still don’t have an explanation
why. Kevin is doing more tests. Can anyone else help with
trying to optimize these two new stove ideas?</b></div>
<div><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div><b class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(more
below - also from today)<br class="">
</b>
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<div class=""><i
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title="Call
with Google
Voice"
class=""><span
title="Call
with Google
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class=""><span
title="Call
with Google
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<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at
7:42 AM Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
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rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="" lang="EN-CA">
<div class="gmail-m_6343832323420919572WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="">Dear Friends</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="">I like the
discussion about what to test for, and what to
measure, and how, and where results should
lead. It has been a long time since an open
discussion was held. We have had years of
advocacy for a particular method, not what is
needed leading to a test designed to do that.
</span></p>
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<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL2: Not sure of the intent here, but I am
advocating against controlled cooking tests. We must use the
water boiling test to be able to compare across stove types
with and without stones and extra grates.</b><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
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<div class="" lang="EN-CA">
<div class="gmail-m_6343832323420919572WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class=""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="">Charcoal
stoves have many advantages over wood stoves,
including benefits of the char as an energy
carrier. It is light, easily dried, and
doesn’t rot.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL3: Yes, char is light, but per unit volume,
most biomass is superior. You can put more megajoules via
wood into any of the 4 char-burners that Kevin has
introduced than you can via char. Volumes can be as
important as weight. The big advantage of a wood stove over
a char-using stove is that the wood (or other combustibles)
can be turned into biochar - see next.</b><br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
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<div class="" lang="EN-CA">
<div class="gmail-m_6343832323420919572WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class=""> It is
relatively easily ignited. The fact that
people crate char wastefully and burn it
inefficiently and incompletely is not an
attribute of the fuel but of the managers.</span></p>
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<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL4: Agree in part on charcoal stove advantages.
I think a main one is that, once lit, they don’t need the
attending that most wood stoves do. (TLUDS don’t need much
tending). I am torn on supporting Kevin in studying rocks
and grates, because the production is so bad (Kevin’s#1
point above), and because the charcoal can be so important
when treated as biochar (dozens of advantages - but mainly
energy, climate and food). But I agree with all of Kevin’s
points above - ethically we should all be trying to make
the horrible practice of cooking with charcoal as less evil
as we can</b>.<b class=""> Cooking while making char is a
good topic as well - but not in this thread.</b>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
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0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="" lang="EN-CA">
<div class="gmail-m_6343832323420919572WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="">While it is
popular to say that charcoal makes “a lot of
smoke” when it is made, it is only true when
people do that, and not when they don’t. </span></p>
</div>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL5: Like Kevin - I worry a lot about how it is
made - but production is not the theme of this thread</b><br
class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
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<div class="" lang="EN-CA">
<div class="gmail-m_6343832323420919572WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class=""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="">Some of the best
users of charcoal fuel are cooks in Cambodia.
They are effective and frugal and have been
doing it for thousands of years. Maybe we can
learn something from them.</span></p>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b
class="">[RWL6: Cambodia could be appropriate - especially
if they can tell us anything about using rocks or extra
grates. A cite on Cambodian charcoal being more efficient in
usage? No need for a cite in this thread on char production
- even via TLUDs.</b></div>
<div><b class=""><br class="">
</b></div>
<div><b class="">Ron<br class="">
</b>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
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0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
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<div class="" lang="EN-CA">
<div class="gmail-m_6343832323420919572WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class=""></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="">Regards</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="">Crispin</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class=""> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class=""> </span></p>
<div class="">
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style="border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt
solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"
class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b class=""><span class=""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
class="" lang="EN-US"> Ronal Larson <<a
href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>>
<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b> Wednesday, October 30,
2019 19:14<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b> Discussion of biomass
cooking stoves <<a
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>;
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>>;
Kevin McLean > <<a
href="mailto:info@sun24.solar" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">info@sun24.solar</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Cc:</b> Christa Roth <<a
href="mailto:stoves@foodandfuel.info"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">stoves@foodandfuel.info</a>><br
class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b> Improving cooking
with charcoal</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal">Crispin, Kevin, List, cc
Christa</p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
class="gmail-m_6343832323420919572apple-tab-span">
</span>Note change in thread title. The
previous were under the name “no subject”-
which wouldn’t help researchers not around for
this thread (which is going well).<span
class="gmail-m_6343832323420919572apple-tab-span">
</span></p>
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<snip a lot><br
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href="mailto:info@sun24.solar"
target="_blank" class=""
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27, 2019 9:01 AM</span><span
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class="">
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class=""><span
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style="font-size: 10pt;
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sans-serif;" class=""> </span></span><span
style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: Tahoma,
sans-serif;" class="">Re:
[Stoves] (no subject)</span><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
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class=""> </span></p>
</div>
<div name="BB10" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">Here is a<span
class="gmail-m_6343832323420919572apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href="https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F167i50oweyfe23bRMnDSeJwlu0eM4IgTek6IO2C6JPes%2Fedit%3Fusp%3Dsharing&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd9ec2f74d13049f204fa08d75d8ec8b4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637080740148782634&sdata=50qonsQ30NwtTdhm1UFaoLnAnRAE3hq0ZQWg%2FFARzJI%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">report
from Zambia</a><span
class="gmail-m_6343832323420919572apple-converted-space"> </span>indicating
that the rock bed and second
metal grate improve the
efficiency of the Zambian mbaula
(all-metal) charcoal jiko by
41%. Cooking time is also
greatly reduced. While these
testers have no training, their
results are consistent.</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"
class=""> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">This is
such a simple modification that
dissemination could be very
rapid. I hope some of you can
try this. </span><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"
class=""></span></p>
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class=""> </span></p>
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<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">On Thu,
Oct 10, 2019 at 1:37 PM K McLean
<<a
href="mailto:info@sun24.solar"
target="_blank" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">info@sun24.solar</a>>
wrote:</span><span
style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"
class=""></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">Listmates,</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size: 12pt;
font-family: Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">Has
anyone tried this?</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:
12pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">We
seem to have
significantly
increased the
efficiency of charcoal
jikos by putting a bed
of rocks on the jiko's
grate and putting
second metal grate on
the rock bed. The
charcoal goes on the
second metal grate.
2-3 cm rocks work.
It works in all metal
jikos and clay jikos
that we've tested. </span><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:
12pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">Our
testing is early and
unscientific, but
consistent. 25-50%
less fuel used. Here
are three reports.
The Sierra Leone
report has good photos
at the bottom.</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:
12pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;"
class=""><a
href="https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdrive.google.com%2Ffile%2Fd%2F12MvBKjxq6PCGCcCHAjSYSeVXXvl7jWjD%2Fview%3Fusp%3Dsharing&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd9ec2f74d13049f204fa08d75d8ec8b4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637080740148782634&sdata=QUKUqFK7%2BSRPyu3kcVSZDJR6QIz%2FNVrYFJNOruqRPl0%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class="">Sierra
Leone</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:
12pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;"
class=""><a
href="https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdrive.google.com%2Fopen%3Fid%3D1zQIY49E1vrfjYl7t5V_shvw70d67QirGWUrbW51tDxo&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd9ec2f74d13049f204fa08d75d8ec8b4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637080740148792643&sdata=gcU31g2xkNP6CvATAaOYiagHuLr2AotChRIUHTkSBTQ%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true"><span
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif" class="">Uganda</span></a></span><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:
10pt; font-family:
Arial, sans-serif;"
class=""><a
href="https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdrive.google.com%2Fopen%3Fid%3D1MPwHCwKEVqJvuybKB5Yj39nr8fbcopBP&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cd9ec2f74d13049f204fa08d75d8ec8b4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637080740148802651&sdata=4REjkNM%2BzaufoOuOIuT%2BDcnQE%2BH7FYfljlHg6K3dRlY%3D&reserved=0"
target="_blank"
class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">Kenya
(very few rocks)</a></span><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:
12pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;"
class="">(The report
authors are
untrained and not
native English
speakers.
Especially the Kenya
report contains many
errors. Please focus
on the consistent
final conclusion
that a rock bed and
second metal grate
significantly reduce
firewood usage.)</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:
12pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;" class="">This
may be a very low
cost, very easy way to
greatly improved the
efficiency of charcoal
jikos. I'd like to
hear if there is
already a body of work
on this. Here is my
rough drawing:</span><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
</div>
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<div class="">
<div class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:
12pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;"
class=""><20191010_133359.jpg></span><span
style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
</div>
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<div class="">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;"
class="">Thank
you,</span><span
style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
</div>
<div class="">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span style="font-size: 9pt; font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;"
class="">Kevin</span><span
style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
</div>
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<p
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style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"
class=""> </span></p>
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<div class="">
<p
class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><i class=""><span style="font-size: 9pt;
font-family:
Helvetica,
sans-serif;"
class="">Kevin
McLean,
President</span></i><span
style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
</div>
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<div class="">
<p
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