<div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Ron: <br><br>I believe I did read and comment on Paul's 2016 report soon after it came out. I think I reacted favorably and asked Paul something about marketing the charcoal.<br><br>I just did a quick review of Paul's paper and am cc'ing Sujoy and Sujatha to see if they have something to add to the price of $0.12/kg under the "charcoal buyback" scheme. <br><br>My question to them all and you is whether using the stoves for cooking saleable food products has greater profit potential than selling mere charcoal. Might obviate the need for silly "carbon market" earnings that go to feeding consultants. <br><br>Yes, earning a profit from cooking, not just from cookstoves. <br><br>Cookstoves are not cooking. A simple fact that has been ignored in 50 years of engineer tinkering with unreliable test protocols for standard fuels, standard task (boiling water), standard use pattern for standard humanoids. <br><br>Yes, as Robert van der Plas pointed out about five years ago, "If we drop WBT, what is saved? Are we not junking all received knowledge?" (My paraphrasing of his words; I am writing from memory, and he was only raising a question which I answered in the affirmative.) <br><br>Yes, too, in saving trees and climate, we have forgotten that food is cooked to please the eater and that cooked food is profitable, though the profit rates are as contextual as foods and ancillary technologies (delivery of animal products, say) and preferences for timing, temperature of service, and taste. <br><br>I hope someone else on this list narrates observations from real life, not laboratories, about changes in the food economies of Third World (or for that matter the First and Second Worlds) in the last 50 years. In my traveling years, the only systematic trend I saw around the world, apart from loss of forests (which may or may not have had anything to do with cookstoves), was outsourcing the kitchen, preparation and sale of foods outside the home. <br><br>Of course charcoal can be sold profitably. So can foods. Did you see Queen of Katwe? Or notice Teddy's posts about charcoal sales to eateries in Kenya? (I collected many such stories but just lost my hard drive and two years of data not backed up, but I could start again.) <br><br>So here is a proposal to Paul and anybody else who has sold stoves that have expanded income earning opportunities -- CAN WE PLEASE look at the economy of cooking and foods, not just of fuels? In real life for real people in real geographies? <br><br>I think this paper you cited - Samal, et al. (2019) - is a delightful overview. (Samal cc'd here.) It is from a "
1st International Conference on Manufacturing, Material Science and Engineering", which raises hopes that material scientists and product designers may take the field of stove design forward, past (I hope) the dead wood of what they have reviewed. (By "dead wood" I mean the obsession with lab tests for irrelevant and unreliable "performance metrics" like fuel efficiency, and instead focus on pleasing the cooks for the real job of stoves - COOKING. (And hearing space or water, for personal consumption or, again, for commercial opportunities.) <br><br>As the authors conclude, "
Finally, during cookstove design attention should be focussed on simplicity, reliability, accessibility,
economy and social culture. "<br><br>I raise a toast to wisdom. <br><br>N<br><br><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font face="georgia, serif">------------------------</font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><font face="georgia, serif">Nikhil Desai</font></div><div style="font-size:12.8px"><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><font face="georgia, serif"><br><i>Skype: nikhildesai888</i></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 2:40 PM Ronal Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div>List: cc Nikhil, Dan, Paul, Kevin</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>The direct link that Dan refers to is: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com/2016/09/30/deganga-tlud-project-2016/" target="_blank">http://www.drtlud.com/2016/09/30/deganga-tlud-project-2016/</a> </div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I have just re-read it, and find areas that both support Dan’s positives and some of my concerns (such as needing a subsidized price - and little char getting into the ground).</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Kevin’s name is here again (my only cc for my 24 Dec. message - still below) because he has been emphasizing zero cost modifications for cooking. I know he can accept low cost if the units can make money. How low does low have to be?</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Dan’s remarks help me to respond to Nikhil’s comments to me (see below) - who I am afraid didn’t discuss anything (at all) about TLUD interventions. Dan is too modest to say so - but he is producing a lot of char while heating his (self-designed and self-built) home in Southern Colorado. Char used as biochar. Those going to ETHOS would be well advised to seek out Dan.</div><div><br></div><div> Nikhil - would you be good enough to speak (as an Economist) to a few of the many parts of Paul’s 2016 report.</div><div><br></div><div>Paul: any (third-year) update that would help this particular thread? I am particularly impressed at the large potential annual income that can be earned. It looks like one can claim a payback time of only a few months. Anything new on produced char becoming biochar?</div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br></div><br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Dec 25, 2019, at 5:41 PM, dan weinshenker <<a href="mailto:danweinshenker@gmail.com" target="_blank">danweinshenker@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr"><div>I'm wondering about your evaluation of the project "Case Study of the Acceptance of Champion TLUD Gasifier Stoves in the Deganga Area, Ganges Delta, India" ? Report available on Paul Anderson's DrTLUD website. Project has expanded significantly even since this report.</div><div><br></div><div>Seems like this is a high adoption program, thousands of stoves, numbers increasing year by year, with year after year sustained success. It also has many related business components, from cooks earning money; charcoal collectors; charcoal purchases; management and coordination services; stove manufacturer; subsidized purchase finance, etc.</div><div><br></div><div>All and everybody helping the whole; everybody making money. Nobody getting rich, but enough incentives all around.</div><div><br></div><div>To me, seems like a great total business plan. Works because it's comprehensive.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 9:06 AM Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" target="_blank">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)"><div dir="ltr">Ron:<br><br>You asked for thoughts, so I will offer mine. As an economist, I ought to know how money is made. (Raising grants. Administering grants. By publishing papers and holding fourth at conferences, performing "show and tell" before poor women, a form of poverty and climate tourism. Or taking a cut of the CDM or VER markets to ensure that the poor are properly penalized if their biomass is sourced renewably.)<br><br>Stoves don't make money. People make money. That is a likely clue to why charcoal-making stoves don't sell themselves as much as you believe they should; there are too many cooks making sure that the broth is spoiled. <br><br>And people "make money" when they do something financially profitable - earning a return on their investment in the stove, their feedstock, and their labor. <br><br>It may well be that your favorite charcoal-making stoves are not profitable enough in all contexts. Or that non-cooks are busy baking their own cake in the name of the poor. (EPA and Gates Foundation consultants, to be precise.)<br><br>Nikhil<br><br><br><br><br><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><font face="georgia, serif">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>Nikhil Desai</font></div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><font face="georgia, serif"><br><i>Skype: nikhildesai888</i><br></font><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 12:52 PM Ronal Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)"><div><div>List: cc Kevin</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I recommend this (non-fee) overview article shown below. The free pdf version is at: <a href="https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.5141191?class=pdf" target="_blank">https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.5141191?class=pdf</a>.</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>This is a nice stove-breakdown list - that they mostly cover:</div><div><br></div><div>(a) According to technology used: Traditional and Improved cookstove </div><div>(b) According to draft or air supply: Natural draft and Forced draft </div><div>(c) According to combustion mechanism: Direct combustion and Gasifier </div><div>(d) According to fuel used: wood, Dung cake, charcoal, residue crops, Multi-fuels </div><div>(e) According to material: Mud, Brick, Ceramic, Metal and Hybrid </div><div>(f) According to fuel feeding: Batch feeding or continuous feeding </div><div>(g) According to utility: Domestic size or Community size </div><div>(h) According to chimney used: Cookstove with chimney or cookstove without chimney </div><div>(i) According to portability: Portable or fixed type </div><div>(j) According to pot used: Single pot or multiple pots </div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I would add one more:</div><div>k). According to money flow: Make money or spend money while cooking</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Obviously there should be some stove-user interest in money-making. The only way I am aware of is making charcoal. Others? </div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>So this k) option is already possible as a part of c) Gasifier (meaning only TLUD in this paper). But (unfortunately) not much of k) is now happening as part of c). Nor is marketing of char discussed in this article.</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>But there are many ways to make charcoal and some of the other ways are potentially applicable to cooking tasks. I’m working on a message on these other non-TLUD ways - and would welcome on-list or off-list dialog if anyone else is doing that.</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>If we discuss k) seriously, it seems that k) can involve EVERY one of the breakdowns a) through j). I am concentrating now on modifications of both the “Traditional” and “improved" parts of a). This category can also expand what is covered in a) through j). For instance, b) can include “no draft”. e) may have other options than those shown. f) might have “and” as well as “or”.</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>This paper is a nice summary of much past work, but is essentially silent on k) - the making of char/money while cooking. No discussion of how char influences efficiency computation.</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Thoughts?</div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br><div style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">Google Scholar Alerts <<a href="mailto:scholaralerts-noreply@google.com" target="_blank">scholaralerts-noreply@google.com</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>"The effects of fuel type and stove design on ..." - new citations</b><br></span></div><div style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif">December 24, 2019 at 6:47:33 AM MST<br></span></div><div style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br></span></div><br><div><div style="width:556px;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-transform:none;line-height:16px;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;max-width:600px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><h3 style="margin:0px;line-height:20px;font-size:17px;font-weight:normal"><a style="color:rgb(26,13,171);font-size:17px;text-decoration:none" href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?url=https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.5141191&hl=en&sa=X&d=17213963389128872961&scisig=AAGBfm0-waMeF4PChI8-x6xowjhFKrv5zg&nossl=1&oi=scholaralrt" target="_blank">Evolution of high performance and low emission biomass cookstoves-an overview</a></h3><div style="color:rgb(0,102,33)">C Samal, PC Mishra, S Mukherjee, D Das - AIP Conference Proceedings, 2019</div><div>As a huge rural population worldwide is depending on open-fired or traditional<span> </span><br>cookstoves to meet daily domestic energy needs, improvement of thermal efficiency<span> </span><br>and reduction of harmful emissions are essential. Accordingly, many researchers are …</div><div style="width:auto"><table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr><td style="padding-right:4px"><a style="padding:4px 8px 4px 0px;text-decoration:none;display:inline-block" href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar_share?hl=en&oi=scholaralrt&ss=tw&url=https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.5141191&rt=Evolution+of+high+performance+and+low+emission+biomass+cookstoves-an+overview&scisig=AAGBfm2ygNIluhutGJVItASU2b5RP-mSqA" target="_blank"><img width="16" height="16" style="vertical-align:top" alt="Twitter" src="http://scholar.google.com/intl/en/scholar/images/1x/tw-32.png" border="0"></a></td><td style="padding-right:4px"><a style="padding:4px 8px;text-decoration:none;display:inline-block" href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar_share?hl=en&oi=scholaralrt&ss=fb&url=https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.5141191&rt=Evolution+of+high+performance+and+low+emission+biomass+cookstoves-an+overview&scisig=AAGBfm2ygNIluhutGJVItASU2b5RP-mSqA" target="_blank"><img width="16" height="16" style="vertical-align:top" alt="Facebook" src="http://scholar.google.com/intl/en/scholar/images/1x/fb-32.png" border="0"></a></td></tr></tbody></table></div><br><p><b>"The effects of fuel type and stove design on emissions and efficiency of natural-draft semi-gasifier biomass cookstoves" - new citations</b></p><div style="line-height:16px;border-top:1px solid rgb(189,189,189)"> </div><div><div><a style="padding:3px 0px;border-radius:3px;color:rgb(26,13,171);text-transform:uppercase;line-height:21px;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;text-decoration:none;border-top:1px solid transparent;border-bottom:1px solid transparent;display:inline-block" href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar_alerts?view_op=cancel_alert_options&email_for_op=rongretlarson%40comcast.net&alert_id=YUsCvyJf17UJ&hl=en" target="_blank"><span>CANCEL ALERT</span></a></div></div><p style="margin:8px 0px 24px;color:rgb(102,102,102)">This alert is sent by Google Scholar. Google Scholar is a service by Google.</p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div></div>