<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">List: cc Nikhil, Dan, Paul, Kevin</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The direct link that Dan refers to is: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com/2016/09/30/deganga-tlud-project-2016/" class="">http://www.drtlud.com/2016/09/30/deganga-tlud-project-2016/</a> </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I have just re-read it, and find areas that both support Dan’s positives and some of my concerns (such as needing a subsidized price - and little char getting into the ground).</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Kevin’s name is here again (my only cc for my 24 Dec. message - still below) because he has been emphasizing zero cost modifications for cooking. I know he can accept low cost if the units can make money. How low does low have to be?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Dan’s remarks help me to respond to Nikhil’s comments to me (see below) - who I am afraid didn’t discuss anything (at all) about TLUD interventions. Dan is too modest to say so - but he is producing a lot of char while heating his (self-designed and self-built) home in Southern Colorado. Char used as biochar. Those going to ETHOS would be well advised to seek out Dan.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> Nikhil - would you be good enough to speak (as an Economist) to a few of the many parts of Paul’s 2016 report.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Paul: any (third-year) update that would help this particular thread? I am particularly impressed at the large potential annual income that can be earned. It looks like one can claim a payback time of only a few months. Anything new on produced char becoming biochar?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ron</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Dec 25, 2019, at 5:41 PM, dan weinshenker <<a href="mailto:danweinshenker@gmail.com" class="">danweinshenker@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class="">I'm wondering about your evaluation of the project "Case Study of the Acceptance of Champion TLUD Gasifier Stoves in the Deganga Area, Ganges Delta, India" ? Report available on Paul Anderson's DrTLUD website. Project has expanded significantly even since this report.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Seems like this is a high adoption program, thousands of stoves, numbers increasing year by year, with year after year sustained success. It also has many related business components, from cooks earning money; charcoal collectors; charcoal purchases; management and coordination services; stove manufacturer; subsidized purchase finance, etc.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">All and everybody helping the whole; everybody making money. Nobody getting rich, but enough incentives all around.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">To me, seems like a great total business plan. Works because it's comprehensive.</div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Wed, Dec 25, 2019 at 9:06 AM Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" class="">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div dir="ltr" class="">Ron:<br class=""><br class="">You asked for thoughts, so I will offer mine. As an economist, I ought to know how money is made. (Raising grants. Administering grants. By publishing papers and holding fourth at conferences, performing "show and tell" before poor women, a form of poverty and climate tourism. Or taking a cut of the CDM or VER markets to ensure that the poor are properly penalized if their biomass is sourced renewably.)<br class=""><br class="">Stoves don't make money. People make money. That is a likely clue to why charcoal-making stoves don't sell themselves as much as you believe they should; there are too many cooks making sure that the broth is spoiled. <br class=""><br class="">And people "make money" when they do something financially profitable - earning a return on their investment in the stove, their feedstock, and their labor. <br class=""><br class="">It may well be that your favorite charcoal-making stoves are not profitable enough in all contexts. Or that non-cooks are busy baking their own cake in the name of the poor. (EPA and Gates Foundation consultants, to be precise.)<br class=""><br class="">Nikhil<br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br clear="all" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div class=""><font face="georgia, serif" class="">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br class="">Nikhil Desai</font></div><div class=""><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:small" class="">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><font face="georgia, serif" class=""><br class=""><i class="">Skype: nikhildesai888</i><br class=""></font><br class=""></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br class=""></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Tue, Dec 24, 2019 at 12:52 PM Ronal Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div class=""><div class="">List: cc Kevin</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span>I recommend this (non-fee) overview article shown below. The free pdf version is at: <a href="https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.5141191?class=pdf" target="_blank" class="">https://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.5141191?class=pdf</a>.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span>This is a nice stove-breakdown list - that they mostly cover:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">(a) According to technology used: Traditional and Improved cookstove </div><div class="">(b) According to draft or air supply: Natural draft and Forced draft </div><div class="">(c) According to combustion mechanism: Direct combustion and Gasifier </div><div class="">(d) According to fuel used: wood, Dung cake, charcoal, residue crops, Multi-fuels </div><div class="">(e) According to material: Mud, Brick, Ceramic, Metal and Hybrid </div><div class="">(f) According to fuel feeding: Batch feeding or continuous feeding </div><div class="">(g) According to utility: Domestic size or Community size </div><div class="">(h) According to chimney used: Cookstove with chimney or cookstove without chimney </div><div class="">(i) According to portability: Portable or fixed type </div><div class="">(j) According to pot used: Single pot or multiple pots </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span>I would add one more:</div><div class="">k). According to money flow: Make money or spend money while cooking</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span>Obviously there should be some stove-user interest in money-making. The only way I am aware of is making charcoal. Others? </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span>So this k) option is already possible as a part of c) Gasifier (meaning only TLUD in this paper). But (unfortunately) not much of k) is now happening as part of c). Nor is marketing of char discussed in this article.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span>But there are many ways to make charcoal and some of the other ways are potentially applicable to cooking tasks. I’m working on a message on these other non-TLUD ways - and would welcome on-list or off-list dialog if anyone else is doing that.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span>If we discuss k) seriously, it seems that k) can involve EVERY one of the breakdowns a) through j). I am concentrating now on modifications of both the “Traditional” and “improved" parts of a). This category can also expand what is covered in a) through j). For instance, b) can include “no draft”. e) may have other options than those shown. f) might have “and” as well as “or”.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span>This paper is a nice summary of much past work, but is essentially silent on k) - the making of char/money while cooking. No discussion of how char influences efficiency computation.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span style="white-space:pre-wrap" class=""> </span>Thoughts?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ron</div><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">Begin forwarded message:</div><br class=""><div style="margin:0px" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">Google Scholar Alerts <<a href="mailto:scholaralerts-noreply@google.com" target="_blank" class="">scholaralerts-noreply@google.com</a>><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin:0px" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""><b class="">"The effects of fuel type and stove design on ..." - new citations</b><br class=""></span></div><div style="margin:0px" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif" class="">December 24, 2019 at 6:47:33 AM MST<br class=""></span></div><div style="margin:0px" class=""><span style="font-family: -webkit-system-font, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">To: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,"Helvetica Neue",Helvetica,sans-serif" class=""><a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a><br class=""></span></div><br class=""><div class=""><div style="width:556px;color:rgb(34,34,34);text-transform:none;line-height:16px;text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none;word-spacing:0px;white-space:normal;max-width:600px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><h3 style="margin:0px;line-height:20px;font-size:17px;font-weight:normal" class=""><a style="color:rgb(26,13,171);font-size:17px;text-decoration:none" href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?url=https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.5141191&hl=en&sa=X&d=17213963389128872961&scisig=AAGBfm0-waMeF4PChI8-x6xowjhFKrv5zg&nossl=1&oi=scholaralrt" target="_blank" class="">Evolution of high performance and low emission biomass cookstoves-an overview</a></h3><div style="color:rgb(0,102,33)" class="">C Samal, PC Mishra, S Mukherjee, D Das - AIP Conference Proceedings, 2019</div><div class="">As a huge rural population worldwide is depending on open-fired or traditional<span class=""> </span><br class="">cookstoves to meet daily domestic energy needs, improvement of thermal efficiency<span class=""> </span><br class="">and reduction of harmful emissions are essential. Accordingly, many researchers are …</div><div style="width:auto" class=""><table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" class=""><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td style="padding-right:4px" class=""><a style="padding:4px 8px 4px 0px;text-decoration:none;display:inline-block" href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar_share?hl=en&oi=scholaralrt&ss=tw&url=https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.5141191&rt=Evolution+of+high+performance+and+low+emission+biomass+cookstoves-an+overview&scisig=AAGBfm2ygNIluhutGJVItASU2b5RP-mSqA" target="_blank" class=""><img width="16" height="16" style="vertical-align: top;" alt="Twitter" src="http://scholar.google.com/intl/en/scholar/images/1x/tw-32.png" border="0" class=""></a></td><td style="padding-right:4px" class=""><a style="padding:4px 8px;text-decoration:none;display:inline-block" href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar_share?hl=en&oi=scholaralrt&ss=fb&url=https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.5141191&rt=Evolution+of+high+performance+and+low+emission+biomass+cookstoves-an+overview&scisig=AAGBfm2ygNIluhutGJVItASU2b5RP-mSqA" target="_blank" class=""><img width="16" height="16" style="vertical-align: top;" alt="Facebook" src="http://scholar.google.com/intl/en/scholar/images/1x/fb-32.png" border="0" class=""></a></td></tr></tbody></table></div><br class=""><p class=""><b class="">"The effects of fuel type and stove design on emissions and efficiency of natural-draft semi-gasifier biomass cookstoves" - new citations</b></p><div style="line-height:16px;border-top-color:rgb(189,189,189);border-top-width:1px;border-top-style:solid" class=""> </div><div class=""><div class=""><a style="padding:3px 0px;border-radius:3px;color:rgb(26,13,171);text-transform:uppercase;line-height:21px;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;text-decoration:none;border-top-color:transparent;border-bottom-color:transparent;border-top-width:1px;border-bottom-width:1px;border-top-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;display:inline-block" href="http://scholar.google.com/scholar_alerts?view_op=cancel_alert_options&email_for_op=rongretlarson%40comcast.net&alert_id=YUsCvyJf17UJ&hl=en" target="_blank" class=""><span class="">CANCEL ALERT</span></a></div></div><p style="margin:8px 0px 24px;color:rgb(102,102,102)" class="">This alert is sent by Google Scholar. 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