<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div dir="auto" style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Paul: and ccs:<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Good to see from Tom that the reception problem is at your end. To anyone else coming in late, anyone can see past messages at the web site supported (alone) by Tom:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Go down a few lines to get to the archives. Clicking on “threads” is probably the best way to understand quite a few messages in just 2 days. Fortunately no message received in January had a predecessor in December.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Paul:<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Can you elaborate on your final sentence: "<span style="font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" class=""><i class="">Nothing coming through so far to be of help</i>"</span><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Ron</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jan 2, 2020, at 4:28 PM, Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">To ALL. I am NOT receiving the messages sent to the Stoves Listserv!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And many of your might not be receiving this. Do my messages sent out reach you via the Stoves Listserv? James???<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I cannot answer if I do not receive. I only got the message below because I was added on to receive a direct copy.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">>>>>>>>>>>Ron: (adding Paul now for direct)<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">My comment in brief, char-making cookstoves should be extremely important for the poorest people because they can be used to make an income. But only if the project / society is supportive. The poor have insufficient interest or power to manage it on their own. The CDR (Drawdown, NET, PyCCS) believers need to recognize that MULTIPLE benefits for many people can come from getting the char-making stoves to the poor. Nothing coming through so far to be of help.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Paul<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Doc / Dr TLUD / Paul S. Anderson, PhD --- Website: <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.drtlud.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">www.drtlud.com</span></a><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> Email: <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</span></a> Skype: paultlud<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> Phone: Office: 309-452-7072 Mobile & WhatsApp: 309-531-4434<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Exec. Dir. of Juntos Energy Solutions NFP<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> Go to:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.juntosnfp.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">www.JuntosNFP.org</span></a> to support woodgas (TLUD) projects<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> incl. purchase of Woodgas Emission Reduction (WER) carbon credits<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> and please tell you friends about these distinctive service efforts.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Author of “<i class="">A Capitalist Carol</i>” (free digital copies at<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://www.capitalism21.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(5, 99, 193);" class="">www.capitalism21.org</span></a>)<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> with pages 88 – 94 about solving the world crisis for clean cookstoves.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">From:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, January 2, 2020 3:31 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Ronal Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>; Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>>; teddy <<a href="mailto:cookswelljikos@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">cookswelljikos@gmail.com</a>>; Gordon West <<a href="mailto:gordon.west@rtnewmexico.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">gordon.west@rtnewmexico.com</a>>; Bill Knauss <<a href="mailto:wmknauss@gmail.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">wmknauss@gmail.com</a>>; Anderson, Paul <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: Yet another review paper (2014): Perspectives in Household Air Pollution Research: Who Will Benefit from Interventions<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; background-color: white;" class=""><b class=""><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(235, 0, 0);" class="">[This message came from an external source. If suspicious, report to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:abuse@ilstu.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">abuse@ilstu.edu</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></span></b></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Ron: (adding Paul now for direct)<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class="">I take exception. <br class=""><br class="">Correction: I am not denying anything in principle. <br class=""><br class="">The burden of proof for the feasibility of the MASSIVE carbon drawdown that is relevant to climate modeling purposes is on you. <br class=""><br class="">Not every molecule of CO2 is a WMD. And a billion tons of CDR makes zero difference to the poor who suffer the climate here and now. There is no "small part of the climate problem". Global climate system is a multi-decadal homogeneous emtity (look up "well-mixed long-lived gases" vs. "non-well-mixed short-lived".<br class=""><br class="">Here is a teaser for you, and something you and I may reach an agreement on rather readily:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">What if<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>in theory, "sustainable agriculture" and "carbon negative char" yielded not only local ecosystem benefits but local air pollution reduction and local temperature reduction? (The latter can come not just from SLCP reduction but by more vegetation, more soil and water retention, higher soil and water productivity)? <br class=""><br class="">Every now and then I slip into rich theories! <br class=""><br class="">N<br clear="all" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Georgia, serif;" class="">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br class="">Nikhil Desai</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Georgia, serif;" class="">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><span style="font-family: Georgia, serif;" class=""><br class=""><i class="">Skype: nikhildesai888</i></span><o:p class=""></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 3:36 PM Ronal Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">List and ccs:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I think we have reached the end of needed dialog. I am basing everything in this thread on a hopeful connection between char-making stoves and the climate and restoration communities that is (below) being denied by Nikhil. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Two comments below.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Jan 2, 2020, at 11:16 AM, Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Ron: <br class=""><br class="">You: "My query to this list is - how can we best use the fact that char-making stoves can make money for their users? Nikhil has failed to address that issue. Is mine a non-serious question? One has to believe that climate change is real to get into this topic in a serious way."<br class=""><br class="">Your question IS serious. The only positive comment I have made thus far - beginning three years ago - is that I see commercial char ovens and commercial char stoves as promising , if the land and the feedstock are available at low cost. <br class=""><br class="">I differ on whether taking climate change seriously requires taking the business potential of char making and CDR seriously. There are many CDR options, mostly on paper. I suggest making a business case for one location, one feedstock, and one set of customers. Climate change is too big a problem. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">[RWL: You may be right. We do indeed differ on whether trying to solve a small part of the climate problem via char-making stoves is worth anyone's effort. I see stoves and char-making as an avenue into much larger char-making with most of the char going into the soil - never to be used for cooking. Lesser value, but still valuable, to put the char into asphalt and similar. Many cash-related problems affecting the 50% of the world cooking with biomass might have some relief if the money available for climate restoration were directed to the community being served by this list. My just-sent response to Gordon and Bill is in that spirit - so I know there are some believers. </b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">I emphasize I am in a fact-finding, not solution recommending, mode here.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Any others see a possible connection between charcoal-making (and money-making) stoves and the excess atmospheric carbon world (which is looking for ways to spend money)?</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">one more below.<br class=""><br class=""></b><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">I think you misinterpreted my last sentence. Just because char using stoves can make demonstrable contribution to reduction in air pollution exposures does not mean I am ruling out char making stoves. Air quality is a local property that is also affected by wind patterns over a wider range. Much of the current, conventional char making in the developing world is polluting. Together, clean char making and clean char use can, in theory, be significant contributors to alleviating SOME air pollution. The history of successful interventions in reducing air pollution from charcoal making kilns or charcoal using kilns is not very promising, however. <br class=""><br class="">If I were to take that you have jumped off the bandwagon for predictable health benefits - it'll take impossibly hard and costly research - and are thinking of nothing but charcoal-making stoves, I hope these pointers encourage more discussion: <br class=""><br class="">a. It takes a revolutionary breakthrough for technological and behavioral changes to take place at global scale. Wireless telephony and grid-connected PV (maybe wind) are good examples. Char-making is not a revolutionary breadkthrough. <br class="">b. It also takes an institutional pipeline for knowledge, finance, and skilled labor for such breakthroughs to occur. I see no such prospect on the horizon. (Remember the dreams shattered and left by the wayside over the last 30 years - NREL's Village Power that led to the Global Village Energy Partnership whose results to date are dubious. Same thing with GACC. Same with SE4All. Or UN SDG apparatus, the Paris Accord; the list of failures is long.) LPG and electricity succeed because these pipelines exist. Remember Kirk Smith's<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://static1.squarespace.com/static/53856e1ee4b00c6f1fc1f602/t/590b78d49de4bb6e66c97095/1493924052510/ESD+editorial+on+biomas.pdf" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">a challenge to biomass stoves community </a>(2017) and the 2015 piece in Caravan (India) magazine<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://caravanmagazine.in/reportage/smoke-india-perfect-cookstove" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Up in Smoke.</a><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">c. GACC has driven a stake through the credibility of the "biomass stove community". UNF taking intellectual command over WHO and then to energy access and cooking health SDG is a fraud and a travesty. Whatever credibility was built up for investments in biomass stoves - by which I mean not donor-driven, donor-controlled (EnDev and other GTZ/GIZ projects or some regional and national projects) but those where national governments had taken their own or World Bank money to make new boimass stoves a success - was destroyed by GACC. I think the World Bank will once again try to use bilateral donor grants for biomass cooking, but I hope they use the ISO guidelines and "voluntary performance standards" sparingly and after serious critical analysis. (And avoid the aDALY fraud.) <br class=""><br class="">I wish I could be more encouraging. All I can say is that I admire your enthusiasm..Past failures are no guarantee of future failures. Let's have a business case that does not require anything of government policy changes or government financing. <br class=""><br class="">I took a quick look at the paper Haight et al. (2019) <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/4B8AFEEA2102B1F54561B05586E5FA8A/S1068280519000200a.pdf/div-class-title-estimating-the-present-value-of-carbon-sequestration-in-u-s-forests-2015-2050-for-evaluating-federal-climate-change-mitigation-policies-div.pdf" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Estimating the Present Value ofCarbon Sequestration in U.S. Forests,2015–2050, for Evaluating FederalClimate Change Mitigation Policies</a>. As a matter of general preference, I don't give a hoot about computations of "social cost of carbon", and I am also allergic to references to Bill Nordhaus and Michael Greenstone. (The only climate economist I was hoping to get some more insight from killed himself a few months ago.) <br class=""><br class="">But this paper offers hope - if there is POLITICAL traction, then come 2021, a Pete Buttigieg may champion carbon storage in soils. See <a href="https://peteforamerica.com/policies/climate/" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://peteforamerica.com/policies/climate/</a> Amy Klobuchar is supporting current and new biofuels. <a href="https://www.klobuchar.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/homegrown-energy-environment-natural-resources" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.klobuchar.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/homegrown-energy-environment-natural-resources</a><br class=""><br class="">I won't hold my breath for char revolution or for it to make any difference in climate vulnerabilities of anybody anywhere. Poor people don't have the luxury to worry about climate emergency. <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">[RWL: I think you give them too little credit. I think we can close your part of this thread - I have understood you don’t concur with the thrust.</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class="">Ron</b><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class="">Nikhil<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">PS: Yes, Peel's connection to Kirk Smith is relevant but this paper is also significant for all its references (some of which I have known over the years). The main point, for those who are still stuck in the world of senseless modeling, Michael Johnson's - I think he himself would readily concede that - or Ajay Pillarisetti - who too might - this Clark-Peel paper as quoted is a reminder that there is no there there in the EPA/WHO, Gates/IHME cockamamie. (I am joining EPA and WHO, and Gates Foundation and IHME because of the bureaucratic and financial linkages; I have no inside knowledge, but an audit of contracts would help.) <o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br class=""><br clear="all" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Georgia, serif;" class="">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br class="">Nikhil Desai</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Georgia, serif;" class="">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><span style="font-family: Georgia, serif;" class=""><br class=""><i class="">Skype: nikhildesai888</i></span><o:p class=""></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 11:21 AM Ronal Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">List with ccs<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">The pertinence here seems to be that Peel once worked with Smith. Not at all pertinent to my initial query - on using the fact that char-making (not char using as Nikhil uses in his final paragraph). Is different from all other stove types. And is almost not discussed at all in stove—health publications. And clearly char-making stoves are the healthiest of all starting with biomass.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">There is a surprising link to my carbon-climate world towards the end of this paper - recommending this paper: <a href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/4B8AFEEA2102B1F54561B05586E5FA8A/S1068280519000200a.pdf/div-class-title-estimating-the-present-value-of-carbon-sequestration-in-u-s-forests-2015-2050-for-evaluating-federal-climate-change-mitigation-policies-div.pdf" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/4B8AFEEA2102B1F54561B05586E5FA8A/S1068280519000200a.pdf/div-class-title-estimating-the-present-value-of-carbon-sequestration-in-u-s-forests-2015-2050-for-evaluating-federal-climate-change-mitigation-policies-div.pdf</a>. It has no connection to char-making cookstoves - which I think will be limited to the half of the world now cooking with biomass. And who could use a little more income (and a lot less expense).<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Again, My query to this list is - how can we best use the fact that char-making stoves can make money for their users? Nikhil has failed to address that issue. Is mine a non-serious question? One has to believe that climate change is real to get into this topic in a serious way.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Ron<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Jan 2, 2020, at 8:07 AM, Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); letter-spacing: 0.1pt; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 252); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Ron: <br class=""><br class="">Your references led to more references; here </span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); letter-spacing: 0.2pt; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 252); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Clark, M.L. & Peel, J.L. </span><a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40572-014-0021-0#citeas" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="letter-spacing: 0.1pt; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 252); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">Perspectives in Household Air Pollution Research: Who Will Benefit from Interventions?</span></a> <span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); letter-spacing: 0.2pt; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 252); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=""> Curr Envir Health Rpt (2014) 1: 250.<a href="https://doi.org/10.1007/s40572-014-0021-0" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">https://doi.org/10.1007/s40572-014-0021-0</a></span> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-left: 30pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); letter-spacing: 0.1pt; background-color: rgb(252, 252, 252); background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class="">"Several investigators have hypothesized that those individuals who are more susceptible to the adverse effects of air pollution exposure may also be the groups that benefit most from efforts to reduce air pollution levels (e.g., traffic reduction plans, industrial facility closings, indoor air filter interventions) [<a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40572-014-0021-0#CR47" target="_blank" title="View reference" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(69, 0, 167);" class="">47</span></a>, <a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40572-014-0021-0#CR48" target="_blank" title="View reference" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(69, 0, 167);" class="">48</span></a>],<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">yet this question has largely been ignored in the cookstove field</u>. Valid assessments of the true exposure-response relationships among various subpopulations are necessary to inform a more accurate estimate of the global burden of disease attributed to cookstove smoke, an identified research gap needed to convince governments and policy makers to enact interventions [<a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40572-014-0021-0#CR49" target="_blank" title="View reference" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(69, 0, 167);" class="">49</span></a>]. Evidence regarding who benefits from improved air quality is limited and inconsistent.<u class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>It is not known whether larger predicted benefits among certain subpopulations are due to differences in greater relative improvements associated with air pollution reductions (i.e., different exposure-response functions experienced by the subgroups) or differences in absolute improvements because of poorer baseline health status, which may be independent of air pollution</u><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a href="https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40572-014-0021-0#CR47" target="_blank" title="View reference" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(69, 0, 167);" class="">47</span></a>].</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""> " `(Emphasis added).</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">Let me put this in simple but contentious terms: as of 2014 at least, NOBODY KNEW. Kirk Smith's robust physicist approach to setting the boundaries of HAP as solid fuel origin emissions meant that, in practical terms, solid fuels were demonized and LPG/gas/electricity promised as "life saving" (aDALY terms, at least). <br class=""><br class="">Mind you, one of the co-authors here (J. Peel) also co-wrote with Kirk Smith the paper "Mind the gap" (2010), in my view opening up a radical (but mistaken) path to concocting the Integrated Exposure Response, whereby Kirk Smith ignored all the chemical diversity, took PM2. equitoxicity as an article of faith, and his colleagues manufactured extremely limited concentration estimates from some 600 Indian households during winters (as I remember it; I forget the village locations and months). <br class=""><br class="">What happened in 2014 is well-known: a set of hasty "literature reviews" for the WHO, and </span><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24518036" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class="">Burnett et al.</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>cooking up the IER, IHME the HAP DALYs. Then <span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class="">EPA contractors essentially dictating to WHO the terms of</span><a href="https://www.who.int/airpollution/guidelines/household-fuel-combustion/IAQ_HHFC_guidelines.pdf" target="_blank" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=""><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>HCFC Guidelines</span></a><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=""> and thereby the ISO TC-285 methods and tier levels. <br class=""><br class="">What Clark and Peel observed in 2014 is still valid, more so since GACC has morphed into CCA, paid marketers of LPG, and Kirk Smith is still looking to market aDALY consultancies if Goldman Sachs and Gold Standard have their way. <br class=""><br class="">For biomass stovers, though, the question remains: how much really needs to be known to make a meaningful change? Thee authors say </span>"The ability to know what to expect from cookstove interventions (i.e., to accurately describe the presence of the subgroup response, as simplified in Figure 1, as being a meaningful shift in health improvement) is crucial to reducing scientific uncertainty and to encourage policy makers to enact change. "<br class=""><br class="">What has happened is that "scientific uncertainty" and ignorance are suppressed and a new religion of LPG has taken shape in CCA. <br class=""><br class="">My view is, quantification of "health effects" is academic sideshow. The real challenge is to develop biomass stove designs for commercial and household markets that can make demonstrable contributions to reduction in air pollution exposures. I submit household wood cookstoves can do that, charcoal stoves do that, and commercial charcoal stoves could do that faster. But then, that's just a hunch. CCA has got the money to spread the gas. <br class=""><br class="">N<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: Georgia, serif;" class="">------------------------------------------------------------------------<br class="">Nikhil Desai</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Georgia, serif;" class="">(US +1) 202 568 5831</span><span style="font-family: Georgia, serif;" class=""><br class=""><i class="">Skype: nikhildesai888</i></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div></div></body></html>