<div dir="auto">Trevor:<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">What concerns me most about retorts is their extremely inefficient use of the heat generated by an external heat source and the woodgas generated in the retort. You can get a rough idea of how little of the heat generated by combustion is available to heat the retort by comparing the combustion and flue gas temperature. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The heat going up the chimney could be used for other purposes which would eliminate any concerns about inefficiency, but I am not aware of anyone ever having demonstrated that to be practical in the kind of retort you are considering.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">TLUDs, on the other hand, are inherently efficient pyrolysers, clean burning and easy to use even if you don’t use the heat produced by burning the gasses. I have attempted to measure the amount of heat needed to pyrolyze biomass by comparing the volumes of primary air and secondary are consumed and found that the ratio was around 10 times more secondary air. If I remember correctly, Norm has made similar measurements. From that measurement I have concluded that it takes roughly 10% of the heat contained in the pyrolysis gas to drive the pyrolysis. When you consider that the pyrolysis gas contains only around 60% of energy available in the biomass, it means that only 6% of the total energy contained in the biomass is required to drive pyrolysis. </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Personally, l am only interested in makng biochar in TLUDs when I can use the heat efficiently. But if for any reason you absolutely can't consider using the heat you should consider a simple flame cap design similar to what Kelpie Willison is using. It would be cheaper build and I believe Kelpie has demonstrated that it is far more productive than a retort design.</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan 3, 2021, 4:42 PM Ronal Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">List;<div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I believe the following is self explanatory - and important for anyone thinking of really large stoves.</div><div><br></div><div>Ron<br><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>From: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">Ronal Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>Re: [Biochar] Rocket stove design for retort heating #rocketstove #retort</b><br></span></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Date: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">January 3, 2021 at 4:36:18 PM MST<br></span></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>To: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">Trevor Richards <<a href="mailto:trevor@soilcarbon.org.nz" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">trevor@soilcarbon.org.nz</a>>, "<a href="mailto:main@biochar.groups.io" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">main@biochar.groups.io</a>" <<a href="mailto:main@Biochar.groups.io" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">main@Biochar.groups.io</a>><br></span></div><div style="margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:0px;margin-left:0px"><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)"><b>Cc: </b></span><span style="font-family:-webkit-system-font,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,sans-serif">"kevin McLean >" <<a href="mailto:info@sun24.solar" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">info@sun24.solar</a>>, Ken Carloni <<a href="mailto:ken.carloni@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">ken.carloni@gmail.com</a>>, Bill Knauss <<a href="mailto:wmknauss@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">wmknauss@gmail.com</a>>, Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>>, Kirk Harris <<a href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">gkharris316@comcast.net</a>><br></span></div><br><div><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div dir="auto" style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><span style="font-size:15px">Trevor and biochar list with 5 ccs:</span><div style="font-size:15px"><br></div><div style="font-size:15px"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Inserts below but first: why I’ve added 5 more . (all with whom I ‘ve had multiple valuable conversations; and all in this area as volunteers - not needing to make a profit - and all I believe highly willing to share biochar (and stove/retort) experiences )</div><div style="font-size:15px"><br></div><div style="font-size:15px"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Kevin(FL): Sees a need for something like you are designing for the large cook pots (200 liter or more?) now often/mainly using 3 rocks in many rural public schools - especially in Africa.</div><div style="font-size:15px"><br></div><div style="font-size:15px"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Ken (OR): Has written a great report on using 200-liter barrels/drums, not as TLUDs or retorts, but split to enclose something like a really large flame-cap Kon-Tiki</div><div style="font-size:15px"><br></div><div style="font-size:15px"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Bill (NM): Has built and tested a char making TLUD bigger than yours both in diameter and height. Not a retort above a TLUD, but similar issues below.</div><div style="font-size:15px"><br></div><div style="font-size:15px"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Norm (WA); has the best knowledge I know re 200 liter barrels/drums as TLUDs </div><div style="font-size:15px"><br></div><div style="font-size:15px"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Kirk (CA); Has designed a large TLUD for use with planchas - with run time exceeding 2 (3?) hours</div><div style="font-size:15px"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></div><div style="font-size:15px"><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:15px"> </span><span style="font-size:15px">Your 5-point description below is first rate. I hope Kevin, Ken, Bill, Norm, and, Kirk will add to my thoughts. </span></div><div><span style="font-size:15px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:15px"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>This is an important topic. </span></div><div><span style="font-size:15px"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="font-size:15px">Needs to be on the stoves list as well. (I’ll send next.)</span></div><div><span style="font-size:15px"> </span></div><div><span style="font-size:15px"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span> Last remark reminds me there is a new beginning ISO effort on how to rate and rank stoes above 150 liter cook-pot size - and you might find thatt helpful or vice versa.</span></div><div><br style="font-size:15px"><div><br><blockquote type="cite" style="font-size:15px"><div>On Jan 3, 2021, at 2:00 PM, Trevor Richards <<a href="mailto:trevor@soilcarbon.org.nz" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">trevor@soilcarbon.org.nz</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div class="gmail_default">Hi Paul,</div><div class="gmail_default">This is an option being considered & was also suggested by Ron. These are some design considerations:</div><ul><li>The pressure vessel we have for conversion to retort is 1000mm between dome ends & 800Dia (~500L). Current idea is to elevate retort to comfortable access height on its side (say 1m above ground) & fabricate swing door from one dome end. This gives 1m to play with under the retort. This could be extended with a pit but then we are handling TLUD's below our feet or in a trench or we house separately and duct heat/gasses to the retort furnace chamber.<span> </span></li></ul></div></div></blockquote><span style="font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="font-size:15px">[</span><b style="font-size:15px">RWL1 - should work. </b></div><div><b style="font-size:15px"><br></b></div><div><b style="font-size:15px"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span> I have been thinking with </b><b><span style="font-size:15px">Kevin of the lower part of a vertical 200 liter drum/barrel operated as a </span></b><span style="font-size:15px">TLUD</span><b><span style="font-size:15px"> that would sit under your “pressure vessel”, whose height above ground would then be less than a meter (as are 200 liter drums).</span></b></div><div><b><span style="font-size:15px"><br></span></b></div><div><b style="font-size:15px"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>The additions we have been considering to your </b><span style="font-size:15px"><b>TLUD thinking below is an added skirt whose height will cover both the lower TLUD and the upper “cook-pot/retort”. Separating primary and secondary air has many possible alternatives. We can discuss that more, if you wish</b>.</span></div><div><span style="font-size:15px"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><br></span><blockquote type="cite" style="font-size:15px"><div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><ul><li>Need to be able to extract (swap out?)<span> </span><span class="gmail_default">a hot<span> </span></span>TLUD from the furnace chamber to quench.<span> </span></li></ul></div></div></blockquote><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><span style="font-size:15px"><b>[RWL2: Yup. Your upper retort is too big to move as one with a cook pot above a small TLUD. I’ve been thinking of sliding the big TLUD out - maybe on rails if needed. Of course needs to have a smaller OD than your retort.</b></span></div><div><blockquote type="cite" style="font-size:15px"><div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><ul><li>TLUD would need to be sized to complete the retort heating phase ... how to size & design based on limitations</li></ul></div></div></blockquote><b style="font-size:15px"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>RWL3: Yup Same issue for Kevin, Bill and Kirk (not Norm and Bill)</b><br><blockquote type="cite" style="font-size:15px"><div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><ul><li>A rocket stove could more easily fit within space available & be kept fed until gas ignition but maybe slow & labor intensive... again, how to estimate fuel load needed for our retort?</li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b style="font-size:15px">[RWL4: Yup. A cook pot can’t give off useful gases as can your retort design, so you might not need too much “stove” below - especially with a skirt (which will help on operator comfort, speed ,and efficiency.</b></div><br><blockquote type="cite" style="font-size:15px"><div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><ul><li>Could assume 200-300kg of wood @25-35%MC when loaded.<span> </span></li></ul></div></div></blockquote><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span><b style="font-size:15px">[RWL5: All of the above experts can help with that estimate. Use maybe 15 MJ/kg (wet) wood, use maybe density of .6 or .7? Kevin will recommend much lower density corn cobs because of cost. I have never seen a good analysis of energy needed for your sort of retort. Anyone on the list cable to give Trevor and estimate based on his 200-300 kg size/shape retort.</b></div><div><b><br></b></div><div><span style="font-size:15px"><b><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>In sum, I hope you stick with the TLUD over the Rocket</b></span></div><div><span style="font-size:15px"><br></span></div><div><b style="font-size:15px"><br></b></div><div><b style="font-size:15px"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Good luck. Keep us informed.</b></div><div><b><br></b></div><div><b>Ron</b></div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite" style="font-size:15px"><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span class="gmail_default">Your comments appreciated.</span><br></div><br style="font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 at 09:08, Paul S Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Trevor,<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Why not start your retort with heat from a TLUD that will give you 70% of the heat and a lot of char in addition to what you get from the retort?<u></u><u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">Paul</p></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><blockquote type="cite" style="font-size:15px"><div class="gmail_quote" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang="EN-US"><div><div style="border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor blue;border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt"><div><div style="border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b><span> </span><a href="mailto:main@Biochar.groups.io" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">main@Biochar.groups.io</a><span> </span><<a href="mailto:main@Biochar.groups.io" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">main@Biochar.groups.io</a>><span> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span> </span></b>Trevor Richards via<span> </span><a href="http://groups.io/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">groups.io</a><br><b>Sent:</b><span> </span>Friday, January 1, 2021 4:57 PM<br><b>To:</b><span> </span><a href="mailto:main@Biochar.groups.io" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">main@Biochar.groups.io</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span> </span>[Biochar] Rocket stove design for retort heating #rocketstove #retort</p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Looking for advice on designing a rocket stove to provide startup heating for a 500L retort.<span> </span><br>The plan is to cut one dome end off a steel pressure vessel to create a door. The vessel (Dia~0.8, L~1.0m) would on its side within a well insulated fire box. The idea is to use a rocket stove under the retort until gas ignition is sustained. I assume this has been tested before so I'm interested in...<u></u><u></u></p><ul type="disc"><li class="MsoNormal">guidance on H&MB calcs to estimate heating time to gas ignition, based on some typical wood biomass assumptions<u></u><u></u></li><li class="MsoNormal">design & sizing of rocket stove (will it even be practical heating solution).<span> </span><u></u><u></u></li></ul><ul type="disc"><ul type="circle"><li class="MsoNormal">supplement with a small TLUD to kick off retort heating?<u></u><u></u></li></ul></ul><p class="MsoNormal"><br>comments & suggestions welcome.<br>Thanks, trevor<span> </span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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