<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small">I am totally up for this discussion topic. I have to admit I have been reluctant to discuss much of what I'm doing cause I have limited time for discussion of everything and some health issues. That said, one of the best events to ever participate in was the TLUD summit and the facetime at Ethos. Let's do iot.</div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:small">Norm</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 10:01 AM <<a href="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Stoves mailing list submissions to<br>
<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
<a href="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
<a href="mailto:stoves-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-owner@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
than "Re: Contents of Stoves digest..."<br>
<br>
<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Fwd: [Biochar] Clean burning of wood gas (Ronal Larson)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 17:00:20 -0700<br>
From: Ronal Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><br>
To: Kirk Harris <<a href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net" target="_blank">gkharris316@comcast.net</a>>, ETHOS Clean Cooking<br>
<<a href="mailto:ethos.cooks@gmail.com" target="_blank">ethos.cooks@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fwd: [Biochar] Clean burning of wood gas<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:F549F175-C5C4-4E73-BE99-9C24475D15A4@comcast.net" target="_blank">F549F175-C5C4-4E73-BE99-9C24475D15A4@comcast.net</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
Kirk and ETHOS list, cc stoves. (But not biochar list)<br>
<br>
Thanks againn for bringing uo this topic. <br>
<br>
I have some comments to make, but I think would be better first to have a discussion with you and others. I sure want to hear Norm again<br>
<br>
The ETHOS organizers recently said time could be set aside for small group discussions next week. This is to formally ask for such.<br>
<br>
Ron<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
> On Jan 14, 2021, at 12:29 AM, Harris, Kirk <<a href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net" target="_blank">gkharris316@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> All,<br>
> <br>
> There was a recent discussion on the biochar list about turbulence in the mixing of wood gas and air for burning. Ron Larson stated that this also belongs on the stoves discussion list. The below and the attachment describe my disagreements with turbulence for mixing in a TLUD and describes my hypothesis for a better mixing system. It is the the same system used in the 3 hour TLUD stove I described in an earlier contribution.<br>
> <br>
> I had a very difficult time when I started working on the Wonderwerk TLUD test stoves ~5 years ago. I realized how little I knew about the processes going on inside the TLUD that make it work. I wondered about pressures, temperatures, velocities, and mixing and tried to learn what I could. No papers that I found covered what I felt I needed to improve the stove designs. I began to look into what makes a stove do what it does. First I attempted to figure out why the flame goes up through the stove. This landed me on buoyancy. My high school physics taught me that buoyancy had to do with a boat in water. That had to be extended to understand how buoyancy works in a TLUD, or any wood or gas stove. I developed theories which changed and improved over time, and are still changing. Buoyancy lowers the pressure inside the stove to below atmospheric air pressure. That is what brings the primary and secondary air into the stove, the air follows the pressure gradient from higher pressure outside to lower pressure inside. Once I accepted that buoyancy was moving the gasses I began realizing that the moving gasses had an effect on the pressure variations in the stove through such things as the Venturi effect, back pressure up stream of a restriction in the flow path, and directional impact pressure. Then ideas began presenting themselves as to how these pressure variations could be used to improve mixing. This lead me to notice a mixing technique in the Peco Pe and Champion TLUDs. At the upper edge of the fuel chamber the wood gas meets the secondary air. The full pressure difference between the outside atmospheric air and the lower buoyancy provided gas pressure inside the stove was pushing the gasses together. Since gasses are permeable, they could merge, and the mixing here is excellent, molecule to molecule. The flame is smooth, laminar, without turbulence, and yet it was a good mix. However it looked to me that this mixing was not optimized since the air could not reach the gas at the center of the gas column. I set about to design a burner which would optimize this mixing system. That is how I arrived at a mixing system that does not use turbulence. I tried a number of designs, including the Wonderwerk stove that was tested at Lawrence Berkley National Lab, which was quite clean at moderate power levels. No design seemed to solve all the problems. I wanted it to be simple and cheap to build, and to be able to turn the power level up without the burn getting dirty. I was assisting Dean Still at Aprovecho with a different experimental design, and after I left to come home, Dean continued his experiments. He found a way of cleaning up the flame without making the burner complex. He told me about it, and I thought through it. I realized that his design fit the pressure theories that I was developing. I adapted his idea to the TLUD-ND stove and it seems to work. It is simple, and the power level can be turned up quite high before it begins smoking. In fact it can tolerate some forced primary air increasing the power level very high. It can also be turned down to a stable low flame. See the attachment for a description of this mixing technique.<br>
> <br>
> Respectfully,<br>
> <br>
> Kirk H.<br>
> <br>
> On 12/27/2020 8:54 PM, Norm Baker wrote:<br>
>> Kirk;<br>
>> <br>
>> I cannot imagine how your stove does not need turbulence for complete combustion. <br>
>> <br>
>> The simple fact that the flames are exiting the top indicates at least some turbulence and there <br>
>> has to be turbulence just to mix the woodgas or pyrogas with oxygen.<br>
>> <br>
>> Please explain. Very interested.<br>
>> <br>
>> Norm<br>
>> <br>
>> PS How's my cat doing???<br>
>> _._,_._,_<br>
>> Groups.io Links:<br>
>> You receive all messages sent to this group.<br>
>> <br>
>> View/Reply Online (#28958) <<a href="https://biochar.groups.io/g/main/message/28958" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://biochar.groups.io/g/main/message/28958</a>> | Reply To Group <mailto:<a href="mailto:main@Biochar.groups.io" target="_blank">main@Biochar.groups.io</a>?subject=Re:%20Re%3A%20%5BBiochar%5D%20Clean%20burning%20of%20wood%20gas> | Reply To Sender <mailto:<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>?subject=Private:%20Re:%20Re%3A%20%5BBiochar%5D%20Clean%20burning%20of%20wood%20gas> | Mute This Topic <<a href="https://groups.io/mt/79246189/3906221" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://groups.io/mt/79246189/3906221</a>> | New Topic <<a href="https://biochar.groups.io/g/main/post" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://biochar.groups.io/g/main/post</a>><br>
>> Your Subscription <<a href="https://biochar.groups.io/g/main/editsub/3906221" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://biochar.groups.io/g/main/editsub/3906221</a>> | Contact Group Owner <mailto:<a href="mailto:main%2Bowner@Biochar.groups.io" target="_blank">main+owner@Biochar.groups.io</a>> | Unsubscribe <<a href="https://biochar.groups.io/g/main/leave/7122180/447278999/xyzzy" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://biochar.groups.io/g/main/leave/7122180/447278999/xyzzy</a>> [<a href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net" target="_blank">gkharris316@comcast.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net" target="_blank">gkharris316@comcast.net</a>>]<br>
>> <br>
>> _._,_._,_<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <<a href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient</a>> Virus-free. <a href="http://www.avg.com" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a> <<a href="http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient</a>> <x-msg://357/#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2><TLUD pressures 3.docx>_______________________________________________<br>
> Stoves mailing list<br>
> <br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> <br>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
> <br>
<br>
-------------- next part --------------<br>
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br>
URL: <<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20210121/13f0f1a6/attachment-0001.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20210121/13f0f1a6/attachment-0001.html</a>><br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Subject: Digest Footer<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
<a href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
End of Stoves Digest, Vol 125, Issue 11<br>
***************************************<br>
</blockquote></div>