<div dir="auto">I remember that cat Norm. You and Peggy rescued it! <div dir="auto">Here's a tidbit to add to the discussion: think about second law efficiencies and heat transfer. Turbulence causes friction and increases entropy. Heat transfer across large temperature gradients increases entropy. Cool stuff I remember from Thermodynamics classes. </div><div dir="auto">Kelpie </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan 24, 2021, 6:16 PM <<a href="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Stoves mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: Stoves Digest, Vol 125, Issue 11 (Norman Baker)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 11:19:24 -0800<br>
From: Norman Baker <<a href="mailto:ntbakerphd@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ntbakerphd@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Stoves Digest, Vol 125, Issue 11<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAEZw-BD_KOTBmgp5o=<a href="mailto:kVHn50Q02si-1KHUsiDDrfntZx_wWysg@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">kVHn50Q02si-1KHUsiDDrfntZx_wWysg@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
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<br>
I am totally up for this discussion topic. I have to admit I have been<br>
reluctant to discuss much of what I'm doing cause I have limited time for<br>
discussion of everything and some health issues. That said, one of the best<br>
events to ever participate in was the TLUD summit and the facetime at<br>
Ethos. Let's do iot.<br>
<br>
Norm<br>
<br>
On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 10:01 AM <<a href="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
wrote:<br>
<br>
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> 1. Re: Fwd: [Biochar] Clean burning of wood gas (Ronal Larson)<br>
><br>
><br>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> Message: 1<br>
> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 17:00:20 -0700<br>
> From: Ronal Larson <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>><br>
> To: Kirk Harris <<a href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">gkharris316@comcast.net</a>>, ETHOS Clean Cooking<br>
> <<a href="mailto:ethos.cooks@gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">ethos.cooks@gmail.com</a>><br>
> Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
> <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
> Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fwd: [Biochar] Clean burning of wood gas<br>
> Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:F549F175-C5C4-4E73-BE99-9C24475D15A4@comcast.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">F549F175-C5C4-4E73-BE99-9C24475D15A4@comcast.net</a>><br>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
><br>
> Kirk and ETHOS list, cc stoves. (But not biochar list)<br>
><br>
> Thanks againn for bringing uo this topic.<br>
><br>
> I have some comments to make, but I think would be better first to<br>
> have a discussion with you and others. I sure want to hear Norm again<br>
><br>
> The ETHOS organizers recently said time could be set aside for<br>
> small group discussions next week. This is to formally ask for such.<br>
><br>
> Ron<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> > On Jan 14, 2021, at 12:29 AM, Harris, Kirk <<a href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">gkharris316@comcast.net</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > All,<br>
> ><br>
> > There was a recent discussion on the biochar list about turbulence in<br>
> the mixing of wood gas and air for burning. Ron Larson stated that this<br>
> also belongs on the stoves discussion list. The below and the attachment<br>
> describe my disagreements with turbulence for mixing in a TLUD and<br>
> describes my hypothesis for a better mixing system. It is the the same<br>
> system used in the 3 hour TLUD stove I described in an earlier contribution.<br>
> ><br>
> > I had a very difficult time when I started working on the Wonderwerk<br>
> TLUD test stoves ~5 years ago. I realized how little I knew about the<br>
> processes going on inside the TLUD that make it work. I wondered about<br>
> pressures, temperatures, velocities, and mixing and tried to learn what I<br>
> could. No papers that I found covered what I felt I needed to improve the<br>
> stove designs. I began to look into what makes a stove do what it does.<br>
> First I attempted to figure out why the flame goes up through the stove.<br>
> This landed me on buoyancy. My high school physics taught me that buoyancy<br>
> had to do with a boat in water. That had to be extended to understand how<br>
> buoyancy works in a TLUD, or any wood or gas stove. I developed theories<br>
> which changed and improved over time, and are still changing. Buoyancy<br>
> lowers the pressure inside the stove to below atmospheric air pressure.<br>
> That is what brings the primary and secondary air into the stove, the air<br>
> follows the pressure gradient from higher pressure outside to lower<br>
> pressure inside. Once I accepted that buoyancy was moving the gasses I<br>
> began realizing that the moving gasses had an effect on the pressure<br>
> variations in the stove through such things as the Venturi effect, back<br>
> pressure up stream of a restriction in the flow path, and directional<br>
> impact pressure. Then ideas began presenting themselves as to how these<br>
> pressure variations could be used to improve mixing. This lead me to<br>
> notice a mixing technique in the Peco Pe and Champion TLUDs. At the upper<br>
> edge of the fuel chamber the wood gas meets the secondary air. The full<br>
> pressure difference between the outside atmospheric air and the lower<br>
> buoyancy provided gas pressure inside the stove was pushing the gasses<br>
> together. Since gasses are permeable, they could merge, and the mixing<br>
> here is excellent, molecule to molecule. The flame is smooth, laminar,<br>
> without turbulence, and yet it was a good mix. However it looked to me<br>
> that this mixing was not optimized since the air could not reach the gas at<br>
> the center of the gas column. I set about to design a burner which would<br>
> optimize this mixing system. That is how I arrived at a mixing system that<br>
> does not use turbulence. I tried a number of designs, including the<br>
> Wonderwerk stove that was tested at Lawrence Berkley National Lab, which<br>
> was quite clean at moderate power levels. No design seemed to solve all<br>
> the problems. I wanted it to be simple and cheap to build, and to be able<br>
> to turn the power level up without the burn getting dirty. I was assisting<br>
> Dean Still at Aprovecho with a different experimental design, and after I<br>
> left to come home, Dean continued his experiments. He found a way of<br>
> cleaning up the flame without making the burner complex. He told me about<br>
> it, and I thought through it. I realized that his design fit the pressure<br>
> theories that I was developing. I adapted his idea to the TLUD-ND stove<br>
> and it seems to work. It is simple, and the power level can be turned up<br>
> quite high before it begins smoking. In fact it can tolerate some forced<br>
> primary air increasing the power level very high. It can also be turned<br>
> down to a stable low flame. See the attachment for a description of this<br>
> mixing technique.<br>
> ><br>
> > Respectfully,<br>
> ><br>
> > Kirk H.<br>
> ><br>
> > On 12/27/2020 8:54 PM, Norm Baker wrote:<br>
> >> Kirk;<br>
> >><br>
> >> I cannot imagine how your stove does not need turbulence for complete<br>
> combustion.<br>
> >><br>
> >> The simple fact that the flames are exiting the top indicates at least<br>
> some turbulence and there<br>
> >> has to be turbulence just to mix the woodgas or pyrogas with oxygen.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Please explain. Very interested.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Norm<br>
> >><br>
> >> PS How's my cat doing???<br>
> >> _._,_._,_<br>
> >> Groups.io Links:<br>
> >> You receive all messages sent to this group.<br>
> >><br>
> >> View/Reply Online (#28958) <<br>
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> <a href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">gkharris316@comcast.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:gkharris316@comcast.net" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">gkharris316@comcast.net</a>>]<br>
> >><br>
> >> _._,_._,_<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > <<br>
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> <x-msg://357/#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2><TLUD pressures<br>
> 3.docx>_______________________________________________<br>
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