<div dir="ltr">Messages that are forwarded seemed to get the ***SPAM*** tag. We found the ***SPAM*** filter. Now we're just trying to find the right switches. Thanks. Tom<img src="https://click.api.drift.com/o/f6529831-0a35-4c58-8d5d-1b5698a83dd3?orgId=115211" style="border:0; width:0; height:0; overflow:hidden;" width="0" height="0"></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 3:31 PM Daniel Pidgeon <<a href="mailto:daniel.pidgeon@hotmail.com">daniel.pidgeon@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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For the Admin,</div>
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I don't know why some messages get marked as "SPAM", but they show up in my Inbox anyway, and I simply look for the full message subject line before I believe that word.</div>
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But then I need to check the Junk mail box regularly, as for some reason, every message from Crispin every time gets sent to Junk, no matter how many times I tell it that it's a trusted sender!</div>
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I don't get all these automatic things, just try to work around them...</div>
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Daniel</div>
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<div id="gmail-m_-4014488400742703691divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>> on behalf of <a href="mailto:ajheggie@gmail.com" target="_blank">ajheggie@gmail.com</a> <<a href="mailto:ajheggie@gmail.com" target="_blank">ajheggie@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 25 January 2021 9:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Stoves] burning particulates</font>
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<div>This is a repost to see if it gets propagated without the spam flag<br>
the list server appears to insert on certain posts<br>
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We seem to have a discussion going on between stoves and the biochar<br>
horde but it has got a bit disjointed. I picked up on this snippet<br>
below from Daniel in Australia who hopes to use a TLUD to heat his<br>
house by heating water. I am an advocate of underfloor heating in the<br>
UK and it fits well with batch burning, as like a masonry heater, you<br>
can burn hot and fast and the time constant of the floor slab evens<br>
out the peaks from the stove. The other good thing about underfloor is<br>
to do with our perception of comfort, if your feet are colder than<br>
than your head you only feel comfortable at a higher overall<br>
temperature than when your feet are warmer than your head, so a warm<br>
floor and rising heat tends to feel more comfortable at a lower<br>
average temperature, i.e. you maintain a lower temperature and use<br>
less energy with underfloor heating.<br>
<br>
Read below for my take on Daniel's point about smoke particles.<br>
<br>
On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 at 12:22, Daniel Pidgeon <<a href="mailto:daniel.pidgeon@hotmail.com" target="_blank">daniel.pidgeon@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
><br>
> I assume or figure with smoke it gets to a point when the volatile particles are burned off, that there are particles that no longer burn up, and so with further combustion, instead of burning up, they are disintegrated into smaller pieces, which as James
mentioned, can only be removed by filtering rather than further combustion.<br>
> Kinda like if you pulverise an egg shell. There is still the same volume of shell, just a larger amount of smaller pieces.<br>
> That's my logic anyway. I will read further.<br>
<br>
Smoke is a sol of either a liquid or solid particles in air, it can be<br>
unburned volatiles that have condensed out in the flue but we are<br>
mostly concerned with those black sooty particles that are the result<br>
of incomplete secondary combustion. The mechanism for this, asI<br>
understand it, is the heat of the flame splits an oxygen molecule into<br>
two radicals, these then strip hydrogen atoms away from the fuel gas.<br>
As oxygen necessary to completely burn the carbon rich fuel remaining<br>
in the flame has to diffuse into the flame it takes a while for this<br>
to happen and the carbon glows yellow in the flame. If the flame were<br>
premixed, as in a gasifier where the CO and H2 have been pre cooled<br>
before the air is added to make a homogenous mixture of fuel and gas,<br>
the carbon and hydrogen would react simultaneously and the flame would<br>
be blue. In our burners we cannot premix the fuel gas and air as the<br>
fuel gas is hot and already above its auto ignition point.<br>
<br>
If conditions in this diffuse flame are such that the flame can be<br>
sustained long enough for sufficient air to react with the glowing<br>
carbon then the flame is clean. If the flame is quenched before this<br>
happens, and it is dependent on chemicals in the flame as well as<br>
temperature[1], then the carbon does not completely burn and sooty<br>
particles are emitted. These consist of both black carbon and other<br>
partially burned species including polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons<br>
(these are the one implicated in causing cancers).<br>
<br>
Now a bit of surmising on my part; once formed these sooty particles<br>
seem difficult to burn, some of them will have formed from chain like<br>
carbohydrates, like cellulose, and some from phenol like carbon rings<br>
in resins and lignin, we also know that as you heat carbon above about<br>
450C it likes to form rings and these can grow into graphene like<br>
structures, graphene being a single layer of graphite. Graphite is<br>
highly resistant to oxidation so my thought is that if the carbon<br>
fails to burn out in the flame it can form graphene like structures<br>
on which other Products of Incomplete Combustion can aggregate and<br>
once formed these are then difficult to burn out even at quite high<br>
temperatures, i.e. to burn cleanly you only have one shot at it.<br>
<br>
[1] Tom Reed explained that liquid fuels could be characterised by<br>
burning then in a wick lamp, increasing the wick length volatises<br>
more fuel and creates a longer flame, the length of the flame before<br>
it gives off soot is related to the fuel make up, high octane fuels<br>
give a longer sootless fuel than low octane ones and natural resins,<br>
like turpenes, from pine have a very short flame before they create<br>
soot. I see something similar with my woodburning stove, most woods<br>
burn very cleanly as long as they are dry but holly and birch barch<br>
will produce black smoke if burned at a high rate.<br>
<br>
Any comments from the more erudite combustion scientists here?<br>
<br>
<br>
Andrew<br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">T R Miles Technical Consultants, Inc<br>1470 SW Woodward Way<br>Portland, OR 97225<br><a href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com" target="_blank">tmiles@trmiles.com</a><br><a href="http://www.trmiles.com" target="_blank">www.trmiles.com</a></div>