<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">There was an interesting result with masonry heaters in the 1980's.<br></div><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">There was a design where there were 2 exits near the firebox ceiling, one on the left and one on the right.<br>They were followed by heat exchange channels.<br>When you fired the heater, the hot gases would pick one side and favour it.<br>So therefore, sometimes the heater would be warmer on the left side and other times (other firings) it would<br>be warmer on right side. Exactly in agreement with Groume Grjimailo ;-)</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 28, 2024 at 1:05 PM <<a href="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Send Stoves mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. What do the AIs ChatGPT3.5 and Perplexity know about the<br>
upward and downward flow of air? (Julien Winter)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2024 11:50:45 -0500<br>
From: Julien Winter <<a href="mailto:winter.julien@gmail.com" target="_blank">winter.julien@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Stoves] What do the AIs ChatGPT3.5 and Perplexity know about<br>
the upward and downward flow of air?<br>
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<br>
Hi folks;<br>
<br>
Just for sport, I thought I would ask ChatGPD 3.5 and Perplexity a question<br>
about air flow:<br>
<br>
QUESTION: "How do the turbulent vs. laminar characteristics differ between<br>
downward flowing and upward flowing air?"<br>
<br>
Both AIs didn't give a good answer on the first try and required a<br>
follow-up clarification. Perplexity though I was asking for definitions of<br>
turbulent and laminar flow, and ChatGPT thought that downward-flowing air<br>
would bump into more obstacles.<br>
<br>
So, having sorted them out, this is what they said.<br>
<br>
ChatGPT ========================<br>
<br>
Certainly! When comparing the turbulent and laminar characteristics of<br>
downward flowing and upward flowing air without any obstacles obstructing<br>
the flow, the differences lie primarily in the effects of buoyancy and<br>
stability. Here's a revised comparison:<br>
<br>
Downward Flowing Air:<br>
<br>
<br>
- Turbulence: Even without obstacles, downward flowing air can still<br>
exhibit turbulence, especially if it encounters changes in temperature,<br>
pressure, or wind shear. As the air descends, it may encounter different<br>
atmospheric layers with varying properties, leading to turbulence.<br>
- Laminar Flow: In ideal conditions with minimal atmospheric<br>
disturbances, downward flowing air can exhibit more laminar flow compared<br>
to upward flowing air. However, the presence of any instabilities or<br>
variations in the atmospheric properties can disrupt laminar flow.<br>
<br>
<br>
Upward Flowing Air:<br>
<br>
<br>
- Turbulence: Upward flowing air tends to be less turbulent compared to<br>
downward flowing air, especially in the absence of obstacles. The buoyancy<br>
force driving the air upward can result in a smoother, more coherent flow<br>
pattern. However, localized turbulence can still develop due to convective<br>
processes or changes in atmospheric conditions.<br>
- Laminar Flow: Upward flowing air has a greater tendency to maintain<br>
laminar flow in the absence of obstacles and under stable atmospheric<br>
conditions. Buoyancy-driven flow, such as in thermals or updrafts, can<br>
promote more organized, laminar flow patterns.<br>
<br>
<br>
In summary, in the absence of obstacles, downward flowing air can still<br>
exhibit turbulence due to the potential for encountering atmospheric<br>
disturbances, while upward flowing air tends to be smoother and more<br>
conducive to laminar flow, driven by buoyancy effects. However, both<br>
directions of flow can experience variations depending on the stability and<br>
properties of the surrounding atmosphere.<br>
<br>
<br>
Perplexity =====================================<br>
<br>
When comparing upward and downward flows of air in terms of turbulent and<br>
laminar characteristics, the differences lie in the behavior of the airflow:<br>
<br>
Upward Flow:<br>
<br>
<br>
- Turbulent Characteristics: Upward turbulent airflow involves irregular<br>
and chaotic movement with unpredictable fluctuations, mixing of fluid<br>
particles, swirling vortices, rapid changes in velocity, and pressure<br>
fluctuations.<br>
- Application: Commonly observed in scenarios like smoke coming out of<br>
exhaust pipes or turbulence in aircraft, upward turbulent flow is<br>
influenced by irregularities or obstructions in the airflow path.<br>
<br>
<br>
Downward Flow:<br>
<br>
<br>
- Laminar Characteristics: Downward laminar airflow is characterized by<br>
smooth and streamlined movement where fluid layers move parallel to each<br>
other without mixing or disruption.<br>
- Observation: In downward laminar flow, the fluid flows in a straight<br>
line with low flow rate and constant properties like velocity and pressure.<br>
<br>
<br>
In essence, upward flowing air tends to exhibit turbulent characteristics<br>
with chaotic movement and mixing of particles, while downward flowing air<br>
typically displays laminar behavior with smooth and orderly movement of<br>
fluid layers. These distinctions are crucial for various applications where<br>
understanding airflow dynamics is essential for system design and<br>
efficiency.<br>
<br>
==================================<br>
<br>
With some iterative, leading or loaded questions, it might be possible to<br>
push the AIs into the answer you want. But that is a human training the<br>
AI, not the AI training the human.<br>
<br>
Niether AI seems to have read the book Norbert suggested: Groume-Grjikailo<br>
in his 1923 book "The Flow of Gases in Furnaces" on pages 88 - 91.<br>
<a href="https://archive.org/details/TheFlowOfGasesInFurnaces/page/n107/mode/2up?view=theater" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://archive.org/details/TheFlowOfGasesInFurnaces/page/n107/mode/2up?view=theater</a><br>
<br>
<br>
It is also interesting to see how it is good to use several AIs, because<br>
they give different answers.<br>
<br>
Have a whack at it and see what you get.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Julien.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Julien Winter<br>
Cobourg, ON, CANADA<br>
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End of Stoves Digest, Vol 162, Issue 8<br>
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</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div><span class="gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature">Norbert Senf<br>Masonry Stove Builders<br>25 Brouse Road, RR 5<br>Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0<br>819.647.5092<br><a href="http://www.heatkit.com" target="_blank">www.heatkit.com</a></div>