[Gasification] Economy for CHP on Biomass

Thomas Koch TK at tke.dk
Thu Dec 30 17:27:21 CST 2010


Tom 
 
I have been looking for niches for my gasifier technology for 10 years without identifying any. 
 
The question that i ask myselves is: Why did I develop this technology?
 
The only reasonanble answer i can give is that there was a lot of public support money available and it was good fun.We all (us that spend public money with out thinking about market possibilities) believed that as soon as something would be working support structures would be implemented and our technologies would be sold at the price level it had. 
Like it happended to the windmills and Stirling now selling electricity at 270 EUR/MWh ~ 350 $/MWh.
 
The relevant discussion to me is to find out how much we are willing to pay for energy?
 
What are the alternatives? How much will it cost to install windmills and hydro enegy storages - or cofired coal/biomass waste plants with CCS? 
Will smal scale gasification - waveenergy - 2 gen bioetanol etc ever get a chance in the market? 
 
An example:
A family in Denmark:
Gross income 100000 EUR pr year - personal income tax 40000 EUR - Left for consumption 60.000 EUR pr year
Energyconsumption:
8 MWh  ~ price 40 EUR + tax 200 EUR = 320 EUR + tax 1600 EUR
2000 liter petrol ~ price ,6 EUR + tax ,7EUR = 1200EUR + tax 1400 EUR
1500 m3 nat gas ~ price ,5 EUR + tax ,8 EUR = 750 EUR + tax 1200 EUR 
Total energy bill 2270 EUR --  tax 4200 EUR.
 
Thus the energy tax is close to 10 % of what this family pays in tax 
 
If this family converts to non taxed energysources - the tax will have to come from some where else. 
 
Thus our price target is the net price and not the gross price and if technologies will need economic support for the next many years we will end in the unavoidable discussion - du you want better schools - hospitals or (maybe) green energy?  
 
Best regards
 
Thomas
 
 

________________________________

Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org på vegne af Tom Miles
Sendt: to 30-12-2010 20:58
Til: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
Emne: Re: [Gasification] Economy for CHP on Biomass



Thomas,

 

If there is a "niche" for gasifiers in power generation here it is for CHP applications at less than 10 MWe. 1 MWe is often too small to pay off the balance of plant costs. 2-8 MWe may be a market niche. 

 

Xylowatt seems to have settled on 300 kWe/600kWth modules. 250-300 kWe- seems like the right size for a small sawmill but we don't have one working here yet. 

 

The challenge is delivering a system that is robust but with low enough capital and operating costs to be economic. 

 

Tom   

 

From: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Koch
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 10:52 AM
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Economy for CHP on Biomass

 

Tom 

 

It is the same figures that TK Energi came to 5-7 years ago.

 

If a 1 MWe gasifier plant cost 10 M$ and operates 5000 hours pr year for 10 years (total 50000 hours) each KWh elecrticity cost 20 cent in depreciation + maintenance, fuel and O&M - This can easily add up to 50 cent US/KWh.

 

Best regards

 

Thomas 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

________________________________

Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org på vegne af Tom Miles
Sendt: to 30-12-2010 19:26
Til: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
Emne: Re: [Gasification] Economy for CHP on Biomass

Correction for 1.32 $/EUR

 

270 EUR/MWH (would be welcome. We can't justify gasification without heat recovery with our electricity (100-180 $/MWH, 76-136 EUR/MWH) and heating fuel ($10-$22/MMBtu, $7.2-15.8 EUR/GJ) costs. Wood fuel is $40-$60/dry ton ($2.50-$3.75/MMBtu, 1.8-2.7 EUR/GJ).  

 

Real capital costs are somewhere between $5-$10 Million/MWe(3.8M-7.6M EUR/MWe) for a plant designed with a pro forma capacity factor of 85% (85% x 100% full load capacity x 8760 hours per year). Actual operation is probably more like 50%-60% (4,000-5,000 hours/year) due to heat loads. (You can always design a cheaper plant that is less reliable, or reliable for fewer hours per year.)  

 

Thanks to those who do real math. 

 

Happy New Year.

 

Tom Miles

www.gasifiers.bioenergylists.org

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Koch
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 2:12 AM
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
Subject: [Gasification] Economy for CHP on Biomass

 

I just looked through the presentations from the Copenhagen meeting.

 

My aim was to try to find out what the costs for small scale CHP om biomass can be expected to be in the near and the far future

 

It was not easy to draw a conclusion from the presentations.

 

The Skive plant is using fuel at 1200 DKK/tons (162 EUR) and has an availabilty of 50 % now.

The pyroforce techmology seems to work but there where no economical numbers in their presentation. 

The Stirling present investment figures of 1,4 MEUR for a 140 KWel plant and present a payback times of 5,5 years if they can sell the electricity at 270 EUR/MWh and the heat at 45 EUR/MWh and the maintenace cost are defined at 45 kEUR/years.

Vølund technology definetely works and produce electricity, heat and taroil but they present no economical data.  

DONG presented their 85/15 plan which is almost financed by converting taxed fuel (coal) into non taxed fuel (biomass) - but rumours say that the tax issue most be solved first (who is going to pay for the hospitals if the energy tax on fossils are not payed?)

 

For our own 3 stage gasification technology we are expecting a total  electricity production  cost of 300-400 EUR/MWh with a fuel price of  5 EUR/GJ and no income for heat for a 1 MWel gasifier in generation 3. We base this number on approx 12000 hours operation wtih two 50 kWel gasifier.

More details can be given if anyone are interested.

 

Does anybody have data concerning the present and expected future operation economy of small scale CHP on biomass they would like to share? 

 

Best regards

 

Thomas Koch

www.tke.dk <http://www.tke.dk/>  

 

 

 

 

________________________________

Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org på vegne af Tom Miles
Sendt: on 29-12-2010 23:15
Til: mark at ludlow.com; 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
Emne: Re: [Gasification] Syngas on Wiki_

A thumbnail sketch of developments in small scale CHP including gasification, and the development of gasifiers for syngas production can be seen in this year's meetings and workshops of the IEA Task 33 on Biomass Gasification and IEA Task 32 on Biomass Combustion and Cofiring. 

 

They held a joint workshop in October 7,2010 in Copenhagen on "State-of-the-art technologies for small biomass co generation". Individual presentations can be seen at: 

http://www.ieabcc.nl/meetings/task32_Copenhagen/index.html

 

The last meeting of the IEA Task 33 on Biomass Gasification was held June 1-3, 2010 in Helsinki. Minutes of that meeting can be found at:

http://media.godashboard.com//gti/IEA_Helsinki_Minutes_06-2010.pdf <http://media.godashboard.com/gti/IEA_Helsinki_Minutes_06-2010.pdf> 

 

This meeting lists activities in the principal countries that are developing gasifiers for syngas and producer gas applications. Highlights from other countries that did not present at the 2010 meeting can be found at:

http://www.gastechnology.org/webroot/app/xn/xd.aspx?it=enweb&xd=iea/taskminutes.xml <http://www.gastechnology.org/webroot/app/xn/xd.aspx?it=enweb&xd=iea/taskminutes.xml> 

 

Additional presentations for research and commercial systems can be found in the Programme of "Gasification 2010," the International Seminar on Gasification held 28-29 October, in Gothenburg, Sweden

http://www.sgc.se/gasification2010/programme.asp

 

Happy Holidays

 

Tom Miles

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Mark Ludlow
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 1:37 PM
To: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Syngas on Wiki_

 

Hmmm,

Ben a lot of "gas" generated on this topic but not much useable energy! Chicken Little would feel right at home! I doubt that many who buy the GEK expect to go into methanol production. Do I smell just a little envy?

 

From: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Pannirselvam P.V
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 1:22 PM
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
Cc: M at ry; Rajesh sk
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Syngas on Wiki_

 

     Tom ,Jim,Toby

 

 We need happy end to the hot debate on  syngas 2010

         Many list member can agree with me that public or private retrack  statements  is a correct  peaceful end   as  proposed by Jim as more damage  was being done  to him and GEK, I can prove that  this is not the request of crew of Jim  as some one put here , but  independent observer .Every member here has their voice  heard , independent they are from poor country or rich country , independent  of person like me with Phd , working with university or an technical person with elementary school.The new social network make this possible via our lists with equal rights .some  are   proved expert of the start of art  as much as Jim  or more , but if one  do not explained  well here , the experience  alone can not make one  for other to follow as crew. We  all here can not blindly follow with hero workship of few people or expert or so called  imaginary  Jim crew, even though he has world wide network, disciples.wiki,fotoblog  etc,There is no need for him to use the power of his gasification  crew against  few misunderstanding. 

If he really use his syngas based hydrogen  globalizeded  distributed network  power as some one supect here , our list can be innudated with emailsand .our list email  system could have exploded wiith this syngas based hydrogen  explosives emails and bda demage done to GEK  and JIM could have disappeared

 

    But , as Jim travel  and know the biodiversity , really respect all even one who misunderstand too open minded , not too much commercial business minded , but there is always limit to this .

 

 Thus I wish especial new near to Jim and Toby , making the debate live  and  the good side of this very hot debate

 

Jim even though , too much demaged his  true image and good motivation , has not asked public apology , but very educated and polite to ask only publick retrack and I hopethat  he accept too private retrack ,latter inform about the same 

 

 Making  error is human ,  I hope the persons misunderstood They  can fell and be super human  , if they can if not publick retrack openly  or  at least send private  email retrack.

 

 I wish Jim accept this private re-track and we will end this big mis understanding in our very big lists 

 

As really what we need for this list  in the new year is peace , progress, unity in diversity , respect for all list members , including  All the energy experts , academics  like me , farmers , Small  Energy enterprise owners .Our unity in diversity make our list very especial and diferent as we need all, the more divesity much better for the  sustainable growth of our list.

 

 

Yours truely

Dr.Panniselvam 


      

On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 5:52 PM, jim mason <jim at allpowerlabs.org> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 7:31 AM, Toby Seiler <seilertechco at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Tom,
>
> Jim was right, I'm working on a machine that is intended to some degree to integrate principles of making synthesis gas, so I have a vested interest in his use of terminology used in marketing his product that, I believe, contributes to a public misunderstanding.  I've asked Jim nice many times in the past to consider the differences that Doug, Bill Klein, Greg and many other professionals on this list have explained to Jim and myself years ago.
>

well toby, there you go again.  and now you've also ignored the raw
data, in addition to the previous detailed description and logical
argument.  again, the comedy here is I AM NOT USING THE TERM SYNGAS TO
DESCRIBE OR MARKET THE GEK.

i posted the raw data relating to the use of the syngas term on the
gek site.  you glossed over it without impact on your claims.  here it
is again below.  i would like for you to respond to this data.  and
hopefully retract your statement that i am using this term to market
the GEK currently, along with the assertion that i am actively trying
to mislead about the nitrogen content in the gek gas (of which there
is plenty).

that represents the current state of affairs and representation.

as for future states of affairs and representations, the more i look
into the history of this term, its use internationally, and general
movement in use academically, govt, commercially and popularly, i
think i am going to start using it actively.  the transition is
actually much further along than i realized when i was just waving
hands around here about it being a better term.

but again, the current representation of the gek on our site does not
use the term actively.  please respond to the data i have presented.
show some nuance.  if we cannot respond reasonably to data clearly
presented, description and argument clearly constructed, how are we
every going to make meaningful progress on the problem of biomass
thermal conversion?  vocabulary might be the least of our problems
here . . .

here's the gek site term use inventory.  you may have to click "show
hidden" to see it.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




below is an inventory of actual usage of the terms in
question on the gek site.  i've done this for the 8 most visited pages
on the site, in order.  i've then pulled out a much lower visited
page, but the one where i thought my "sins" would be the most
pronounced.  this is the one where the details of gasification are
explained.  it is the 14th most visited page.

as you will see, there is no sentence of the type "the GEK makes
syngas".  in actuality, the "syngas" term is barely even used.  in the
top 8 pages, only 3 occurrances, 1 to note that "syngas" is one of
many terms used for the gas, and 2 in passing while talking about
mixing systems.  in contrast, there are 82 occurrances of the term
"gasifier", 28 occurrances of the term "gasification", 9 for "wood
gas", 0 for "producer gas", 0 for "suction gas", 0 for "synthesis
gas".   i'll even eliminate the two passing uses of the term while
discussing mixing if that helps quell this nonsensical lexical
tempest.

more to your point, the selling pages have exactly 0 declarations that
"syngas" is the gas being made by the GEK.  that's right- zero.  the
term is in not used anywhere to make a claim about the type of gas the
gek makes, nor to promote its sale.   not sure if this changes
anything, but that's the data.  as a man of science, i trust you will
recalibrate your conclusions in relation to the real data.


here's the detail inventory.  it is done over the permanent content on
each page.  not rss feeds in the left column from elsewhere, which
change constantly and not in my control (though i could find zero
occurances of the "syngas" term there either).

1. GEK gasifier home page: http://www.gekgasifier.com <http://www.gekgasifier.com/> 
gasifier (9), gasification (4), syngas (1), wood gas (0), producer gas
(0), synthesis gas (0)
     the "offending" syngas sentence at the bottom of the page:
"The system automatically adjusts syngas/air mixture via a wide band
Bosch oxygen sensor, shakes the grate when needed, and removes ash via
a mechanical auger.")

2. How to make the GEK page: http://www.gekgasifier.com/wood-gasifier-plans/
gasifier (8), gasification (3), syngas (0), wood gas (1), producer gas
(0), synthesis gas (0)

3. Power Pallet info and buy page:
http://www.gekgasifier.com/gasification-store/gasifier-genset-skids/
gasifier (19), gasification (3), syngas (2), wood gas (2), producer
gas (0), synthesis gas (0)
      the two 2 syngas references are again in the context of
talking about fuel/air mixing

4.  Store front:  http://www.gekgasifier.com/gasification-store/
gasifier (8), gasification (3), syngas (0), wood gas (1), producer gas
(0), synthesis gas (0)

5. Wiki page with detail plans and CAD drawings on making and using
the GEK: http://wiki.gekgasifier.com/w/page/6123754/How-to-Build-and-Run-the-GEK-Gasifier
gasifier (8), gasification (3), syngas (0), wood gas (2), producer gas
(0), synthesis gas (0)

6. BEK biochar info page:
http://www.gekgasifier.com/reactor-options/pyrolysis-biochar/
gasifier (5), gasification (2), syngas (0), wood gas (2), producer gas
(0), synthesis gas (0)

7. Gasification Basics, intro to the tech:
http://www.gekgasifier.com/gasification-basics/
gasifier (8), gasification (6), syngas (0), wood gas (0), producer gas
(0), synthesis gas (0)
   the closest i get to sin here is:
"Gasification is the use of heat to tranform solid biomass, or other
carbonaceous solids, into a synthetic "natural gas like" flammable
fuel.")

8. Gasifier kits info and buy page:
http://www.gekgasifier.com/gasification-store/gasifier-systems-and-kits/
gasifier (17), gasification (4), syngas (0), wood gas (1), producer
gas (0), synthesis gas (0)


Here's where i thought my biggest "sins" would be.  This is the page
with the detailed explanation of how gasification works:
http://www.gekgasifier.com/gasification-basics/how-it-works/
gasifier (8), gasification (18), syngas (2), wood gas (2), producer
gas (1), synthesis gas (0), suction gas (1)
    there are 2 sentences with syngas.  the "offending sentences:
"The gas produced by this method goes by a variety of names: "wood
gas", "syngas", "producer gas", "suction gas", etc."
"This is why an engine run on syngas can have such clean emissions."


those appear to be the facts from my neck of the woods.  others are
invited to review the above pages and point out where they think
things are otherwise or should be changed.  i'll happily change them,
as i don't really have a horse in this race.

percentage nitrogen density isn't really the relevant racetrack to
work out the real issues with this tech.


jim













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