[Gasification] What happened at Choren

Mon Jul 11 06:16:54 CDT 2011

Khosla is a man that made money in IT and now invests in cleantech - eg gasification projects such as Range Fuels.

He might have indian ancesters.

Thomas
________________________________________
Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] på vegne af Anand Karve [adkarve at gmail.com]
Sendt: 11. juli 2011 06:12
Til: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren

Dear Members,
who is this Khosla, whose name crops up every now and then? I am
curious because it is an Indian name.
Yours
A.D.Karve

On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Thomas Koch <tk at tke.dk> wrote:
> Dear Tom
>
> Ok - a bit more "fun" than my gasifier project - but apart from the hospital it is more or less the same melody.
>
> Give Mr Khosla my warm regards.
>
> It is getting late here now and my bed is missing me.
>
> Best regards
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] på vegne af linvent at aol.com [linvent at aol.com]
> Sendt: 10. juli 2011 21:42
> Til: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> Dear Thomas Koch,
>      Ontario Hydro was calling the shots and my manager did not argue
> with them because he was intimidated by them. During the course of the
> works, I was burned and spent a month in the hospital recovering from
> 30% total body 3rd degree burns. I was sedated for 2 weeks. When I
> returned to work, I had the clarity of mind due to the sedation to stop
> the project. In the period I was in the hospital, the contractor
> building the system had spent $33,000 on electrical work which could
> not be accounted for. It was a total rip-off.
>      It is true that the project was my responsibility, and it is also
> true that the client can be wrong, and how to deal with this is the art
> of project management. It is not taught in school, most folks don't
> learn it which is the reason that they are technicians, and it is very
> stressful, if one knows how to play poker well, can bluff without any
> cards, then they will make a good manager. Perhaps the best poker
> player in the biggest  game of all time was Reagan when the bluffed
> Gorbachev on SDI.
>     I have an invitation to call Kholsa and maybe I will this week.
> Sincerely,
> Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Koch <tk at tke.dk>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 12:22 pm
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> Dear Tom
>
> I have had similar experinces - crashed with a 2,3 MWth 3 stage
> gasifier for all sorts of reasons.
> But at the end of the day there only one whom I can blame - and that is
> myselves - mainly for being to enthusiastic and not carefull enough in
> the first 25 % of the project.
>
> At a sales meeting arranged arranged by the Min of Foreign Affairs a
> (smart) salesman selling smart metering participated. He was really
> frustrated - he had been in this business for 7 month - seeeeeeven
> month - and he had not recieved one order until now!!!!!
> I told him that i have been in this business for 25 years and nor
> recieved one oreder for one year.
>
> Yes I send a letter to Khosla - and got an ansver from one of his
> assistants that did speak an other language than me. His money - his
> decisions.
>
> Same thing with CHOREN - I had numerous discussions with several
> customers that had identified our plug feedcr as an ideal feeding
> device for a CHOREN plant - but at that stage they where all ready
> running out of enthusiasm - at least I was not happy about their
> answers - so nothing happend.
>
> But - i can rest asure you that here in Denmark it is not only
> golddiggers that can loose commen sense and hundres on millions DKK (
> 1/5 in $).
> Our 2 national 2 gen bioetanol from straw projects have just been
> evaluated by Risoe.
> INBICON - DONGs (100 % ovned by the danish state) project was evalauted
> to "Calculations of the economy in the IBUS concept shows that the
> production of bioethanol from straw would not be social welfare and
> economic profitability. The extended economic analysis shows a
> significant negative NPV for the project." (from google translate)
> http://www.biopress.dk/projekter/kronologisk/5a4cbf0991b435ea988abbd69332184c
> It it reported in English - but run it through Google translate and it
> will give the overall picture if you want to se an example of how
> taxmoney can off set common sense.
>
> The interesting question is now - can we use this experince to some
> thing that is pointing more to the future the writing reports about
> failed gasification projects?
>
> Best regards
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] på vegne af
> linvent at aol.com [linvent at aol.com]
> Sendt: 10. juli 2011 19:37
> Til: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> Dear Thomas Koch,
>      I presume that you tried to relay your views to Vinod Kholsa, the
> founder of Sun Microsystems and some thing with AMD. All successful IT
> types that have not a clue about energy projects. There was a speech
> given to a group of high powered financial types at an energy
> conference once by a wise person who asked the audience who had
> operated a power plant, negotiated a PPA, done due diligence on a power
> plant project and out of several  hundred or so, only one or two raised
> their hands. The rest were refugees from the IT world,looking for the
> next gold mine.
>      I have had many experiences with even my own personnel about how
> things need to be done to work right. The heavy duty power struggles
> within Ontario Hydro between engineering groups within OHT were
> legendary and resulted in the project having 200% overruns in time and
> cost, ultimately failing due to OH's loss of several nuclear reactors
> and being broken up, canceling the project. The damage to Thermogenics
> was irreparable. Whatever can't go wrong will.
> Sincerely,
> Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Koch <tk at tke.dk>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Sat, Jul 9, 2011 8:35 pm
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> I forgot a NOT - I did not see any evidence !!!
>
> ________________________________________
> Fra: Thomas Koch
> Sendt: 10. juli 2011 04:32
> Til: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> Emne: SV: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> Dear Tom Taylor
>
> I did see any evidence that steel was developed at Range - I
> interpreted as one of the arguments that was used to fool them selves
> and maybe the investors also.
>
> I tried to communicate my views to the VC that provided the money to
> Range - just to try to find out how they are thinking - but they did
> not want to discus with me.
>
> Did Shell report reasons why they pulled out of CHOREN?
>
> Best regards
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] på vegne af
> linvent at aol.com [linvent at aol.com]
> Sendt: 9. juli 2011 22:17
> Til: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> Dear Mr. Koch,
>      I certainly appreciate your insight to the management and
> technical issues at both Range and Choren. You know that Shell pulled
> out of Choren some time ago because of these reported reasons.
>      A few years ago our government used the language "too big to fail"
> when it bailed out financial institutions. This is the same problem
> with these large projects, they convince themselves that because they
> have so much money that they couldn't fail. They also believed it and
> made decisions accordingly.
>      I appreciate the information on Range's development of a special
> steel. I wonder where it is now? it is also interesting to see that
> serious, seasoned project managers are not in sight, but come from the
> IT world (as did Range's financing).
>      Of course, when Farmland Industries hired Texaco to refit the
> Coolwater (originally near Barstow, California) coal gasifier to
> petcoke, they fired them after 6 months because they didn't do much
> besides spend money. Farmland took over the work themselves and made it
> work, but it drove them into bankruptcy.
>      There are a few consultants out there who can do a productive
> contribution, but they have to be very, very carefully managed or else
> they spend lot of your money.
> Sincerely,
> Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Koch <tk at tke.dk>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Sat, Jul 9, 2011 11:54 am
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> It is a very interesting question you raise.
>
> What can be learned from Range Fuels and from CHOREN
>
> I have visited both companies trying to help them feeding biomass into
> their reactors and spend quit a lot of brain work on both.
>
> One common thing is that both did not answer simpel normal questions.
>
> I did not understand the energy balance on Range and the Mass balance
> on CHOREN.
>
> And questions was ansvered by business development people.
>
> I remember a meeting at CHOREN where I asked about the low melting ash
> components - where did they go and how did it work?
> The business development manager started a long specialtive explanation
> about how they washed it out of the char - after it had been taken out
> of the pressurised enclosure - and then the char was put back into the
> process with out these troublesome ash components.
> My business development manager had $$$ in his eyes - imagine all the
> feeders we could sell - (we counted 7 pressurised in and outlet on each
> gasifier!!!!)  if we could just focus on this problem instead of
> discussing ash and other irrelevant issues.
> At the site visit 2 of their engineers told me that they had tried to
> draw the attention of the management to this problem with little
> succes.
> My imagination tells my that you can identify 50 similar issues at
> CHOREN.
>
> Similar I had a discussion with a manager at RANGE - he had realised
> that the complexity could potentially be a problem. He was a former
> succesfull business man from Apple.
> I tried to explain him the consequenses of thermal transient in a
> startup situation when you have square hot geometries. He then
> explained me that at Range they had invented a refractory steel that
> could stand 100 degree higher temperatures than the most expensive
> Haynes cobalt/steel alloy. I congratulated him with this invention and
> predicted that he would be come a VERY rich man just by this singel
> invention.
> I dont think he understood one word of what I said to him.
>
> The lesson I have learned is that all projects my full fill 5 rules.
> 1 First law of thermodynamics - Mass will not be made from nothing and
> can not dissapear
> 2 Second law of thermodynamics - No matter what you do you make a loss
> :-)
> 3 First law of money - Money will not be made from nothing but can
> disappear
> 4 Common sense mut be applied to all elements in the process.
> 5 You can fool your selves but only others if you pay them their
> salary.
>
> And making projects by consultants - FORGET IT!!
>
> Best regards
>
> Thomas Koch
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________
> Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] på vegne af
> linvent at aol.com [linvent at aol.com]
> Sendt: 9. juli 2011 17:32
> Til: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> Dear Tom Miles and the list:
>      One thing that should be learned is that when there is a lot of
> money around, the tendency is to hire a lot of folks and then the
> pressure is on to burn money fast. I also see "financing issues with
> start up of commercial plant" to read, too expensive, has technical
> issues, vis a vis Range Fuels and others. This is a repeat of even the
> Downdraft system from Grabowski under Syngas co. This was even
> partially funded in the 80's by a group which had provided funding to
> Thermogenics and the lead financier called me several years after
> funding Syngas to say that i was right, it would fail. They decided to
> not fund Thermogenics because of the lack of PhD's who could argue that
> their process was better. Not having a degree made my arguments not
> listened to.
>      The question arises as to what to do with a large staff which
> initially does engineering work, and then when the design is completed,
> what are they doing next until the design is completed and operational?
> This is why to some extent, this work being done by consultants may be
> better of a business structure.
>      Unfortunately, the financial world relies on degrees for results
> which paves the way downhill. A multiple PhD in mathematics who was
> Sandia National Laboratories' lead mathematician, with Stanford and
> Caltech on his CV, had a saying on his door "A thermometer is not the
> only thing with degrees and no brains".
>      The more of these large operations to hit the walls, the more
> difficult the field will be to get serious project financing and move
> forward. There are others slated to fail in near term from what I have
> been hearing, high profile supposedly "successful commercial
> operations".
> Sincerely,
> Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dl <d0xunt at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Fri, Jul 8, 2011 4:43 pm
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> http://www.choren.com/en/information-and-press/press-releases/
>
>
> Going into bankruptcy in Germany.
>
>
> Dan Lacy
>
> The best way to compile inaccurate information that no one wants is to
> make it up.
> Scott Adams
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 8, 2011, at 3:25 PM, "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> This Google alert abut Choren should be on interest to anyone who has
> follwoed biomass pyrolysis an dgiasification to syngas. See the Google
> Alert link below.  Tom     News1 new result for gasifier What Happened
> at Choren?
> Consumer Energy Report
> The gasifier would be scaled up from the pilot plant scale of 1 MW th
> to 45 MW th . Shell's Fischer-Tropsch technology was being used in the
> plant, ...
>
>
>
>
>
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***
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President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)

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