[Gasification] What happened at Choren
linvent at aol.com
linvent at aol.com
Mon Jul 11 10:32:55 CDT 2011
It has not been discerned as to how much money he put up for the Range
fuels project. There is a list of investment organizations, including
the California Pension fund which means that although he may be the
lead investor, a lot of it was spread around, An of course, we cannot
forget the DOE and USDA which approached 1/2 of the total. This is how
the well to do work, share the risk, probably most of it is OPM.
Sincerely,
Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: Pannirselvam P.V <pannirbr at gmail.com>
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
<gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Cc: João Matias Santos <jmsantos231 at gmail.com>; MITHRA RAVI
<mithraravi at yahoo.com>; R.S. Suthantheran <suntrics at gmail.com>;
charlesandrye <charlesandrye at gmail.com>; Rajesh sk
<rajeshsk76 at gmail.com>
Sent: Mon, Jul 11, 2011 8:49 am
Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
Dear A.D Karve and list memebers
This is one of the good question to all of us .Who is Vinod Kosala
.He is basically an B.S (Electrical engineering), may be 70 from
IIT Bombay , where as I have done my Phd frome IIT Dellhi on Biomass
pretreatments to bioethanol in 80 before moved to northeast federal
university ,RN , Brazil.
Vinod Khosla , is not an Bolliwood super star from Bombay , who has
made fortune in the last 6 years become not very easy many
economic ventures as most failed , rather than he ia an clean energy
venture capitalist , which we all need to give an helping hand
to small bienergy projects as Jeff Davis pointed out in the recent
post.Thus he is called and known in many country as a Superstar
Bombay venture capitalist , trying to make possible distributed
energy concepts , has spent the past six years or so investing in a
broad array of clean energy-related companies and technologies. He
readily admits that many are science experiments with a high
probability of failure , what we all see many technology paths , most
failures But can be getting closer to success with a few of them?
Silicon Valley venture capitalist Vinod Khosla had a very good 2010.
SKS, the Indian microfinance lender he backed in 2006, went public last
August; his personal stake was worth a recent $90 million. Four other
portfolio companies were sold since May of last year. Another one,
Calera, which converts CO2 emissions from coal/gas-fired plants into
cement by-products and clean water, sold a stake to coal.
Here , in media he is also considered as
He is called self made venture capitalist (like marwari ,Vysa
veture community from India )
Country of citizenship: United States
Education: MS, Carnegie Mellon University; BA/BS, Indian Institute of
Technology; MBA, Stanford University
In 2004 he formed Khosla Ventures. Khosla ranked number 380 on the
2010 Forbes 400 list of Richest Americans with a net worth of $1.3
billion.
To find these investments, Khosla explained some of his operating
principles: Don’t trust forecasts. Don’t believe the experts. And
invest in companies that have a 90% probability of failure.
Nearly many world innovative start up venture he made all
become failure , but he has not loss money .here too there were many
critical posts about his company investments and about his lack of
expert knowlegde .
There are hydro and coal energy , which make biomass not viable in
many palcess .An venture capital, are more was critical as risk
inovoled are more ,but without some start up capital we can make
innovation to come with comercial sucess of bioenergy even in some
placess wher the world are dark yet.thus ffaliure and sucess depends
many factors , not only the energy density , tax and other.
For the place in dark , biomas energy can have place .
I wish sucess to Thomas to meet such super tar and bioenergy venture
capitalist and energy expert too
You can follow more details ,if you wish
Follow Vinod Khosla
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 1:12 AM, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
wrote:
Dear Members,
who is this Khosla, whose name crops up every now and then? I am
curious because it is an Indian name.
Yours
A.D.Karve
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 4:01 AM, Thomas Koch <tk at tke.dk> wrote:
> Dear Tom
>
> Ok - a bit more "fun" than my gasifier project - but apart from
the hospital it is more or less the same melody.
>
> Give Mr Khosla my warm regards.
>
> It is getting late here now and my bed is missing me.
>
> Best regards
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
[gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] på vegne af
linvent at aol.com [linvent at aol.com]
> Sendt: 10. juli 2011 21:42
> Til: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> Dear Thomas Koch,
> Ontario Hydro was calling the shots and my manager did not
argue
> with them because he was intimidated by them. During the course of
the
> works, I was burned and spent a month in the hospital recovering
from
> 30% total body 3rd degree burns. I was sedated for 2 weeks. When I
> returned to work, I had the clarity of mind due to the sedation to
stop
> the project. In the period I was in the hospital, the contractor
> building the system had spent $33,000 on electrical work which
could
> not be accounted for. It was a total rip-off.
> It is true that the project was my responsibility, and it is
also
> true that the client can be wrong, and how to deal with this is
the art
> of project management. It is not taught in school, most folks don't
> learn it which is the reason that they are technicians, and it is
very
> stressful, if one knows how to play poker well, can bluff without
any
> cards, then they will make a good manager. Perhaps the best poker
> player in the biggest game of all time was Reagan when the bluffed
> Gorbachev on SDI.
> I have an invitation to call Kholsa and maybe I will this week.
> Sincerely,
> Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Koch <tk at tke.dk>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Sun, Jul 10, 2011 12:22 pm
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> Dear Tom
>
> I have had similar experinces - crashed with a 2,3 MWth 3 stage
> gasifier for all sorts of reasons.
> But at the end of the day there only one whom I can blame - and
that is
> myselves - mainly for being to enthusiastic and not carefull
enough in
> the first 25 % of the project.
>
> At a sales meeting arranged arranged by the Min of Foreign Affairs
a
> (smart) salesman selling smart metering participated. He was really
> frustrated - he had been in this business for 7 month - seeeeeeven
> month - and he had not recieved one order until now!!!!!
> I told him that i have been in this business for 25 years and nor
> recieved one oreder for one year.
>
> Yes I send a letter to Khosla - and got an ansver from one of his
> assistants that did speak an other language than me. His money -
his
> decisions.
>
> Same thing with CHOREN - I had numerous discussions with several
> customers that had identified our plug feedcr as an ideal feeding
> device for a CHOREN plant - but at that stage they where all ready
> running out of enthusiasm - at least I was not happy about their
> answers - so nothing happend.
>
> But - i can rest asure you that here in Denmark it is not only
> golddiggers that can loose commen sense and hundres on millions
DKK (
> 1/5 in $).
> Our 2 national 2 gen bioetanol from straw projects have just been
> evaluated by Risoe.
> INBICON - DONGs (100 % ovned by the danish state) project was
evalauted
> to "Calculations of the economy in the IBUS concept shows that the
> production of bioethanol from straw would not be social welfare and
> economic profitability. The extended economic analysis shows a
> significant negative NPV for the project." (from google translate)
>
http://www.biopress.dk/projekter/kronologisk/5a4cbf0991b435ea988abbd69332184c
> It it reported in English - but run it through Google translate
and it
> will give the overall picture if you want to se an example of how
> taxmoney can off set common sense.
>
> The interesting question is now - can we use this experince to some
> thing that is pointing more to the future the writing reports about
> failed gasification projects?
>
> Best regards
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] på vegne af
> linvent at aol.com [linvent at aol.com]
> Sendt: 10. juli 2011 19:37
> Til: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> Dear Thomas Koch,
> I presume that you tried to relay your views to Vinod Kholsa,
the
> founder of Sun Microsystems and some thing with AMD. All
successful IT
> types that have not a clue about energy projects. There was a
speech
> given to a group of high powered financial types at an energy
> conference once by a wise person who asked the audience who had
> operated a power plant, negotiated a PPA, done due diligence on a
power
> plant project and out of several hundred or so, only one or two
raised
> their hands. The rest were refugees from the IT world,looking for
the
> next gold mine.
> I have had many experiences with even my own personnel about
how
> things need to be done to work right. The heavy duty power
struggles
> within Ontario Hydro between engineering groups within OHT were
> legendary and resulted in the project having 200% overruns in time
and
> cost, ultimately failing due to OH's loss of several nuclear
reactors
> and being broken up, canceling the project. The damage to
Thermogenics
> was irreparable. Whatever can't go wrong will.
> Sincerely,
> Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Koch <tk at tke.dk>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Sat, Jul 9, 2011 8:35 pm
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> I forgot a NOT - I did not see any evidence !!!
>
> ________________________________________
> Fra: Thomas Koch
> Sendt: 10. juli 2011 04:32
> Til: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> Emne: SV: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> Dear Tom Taylor
>
> I did see any evidence that steel was developed at Range - I
> interpreted as one of the arguments that was used to fool them
selves
> and maybe the investors also.
>
> I tried to communicate my views to the VC that provided the money
to
> Range - just to try to find out how they are thinking - but they
did
> not want to discus with me.
>
> Did Shell report reasons why they pulled out of CHOREN?
>
> Best regards
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] på vegne af
> linvent at aol.com [linvent at aol.com]
> Sendt: 9. juli 2011 22:17
> Til: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> Dear Mr. Koch,
> I certainly appreciate your insight to the management and
> technical issues at both Range and Choren. You know that Shell
pulled
> out of Choren some time ago because of these reported reasons.
> A few years ago our government used the language "too big to
fail"
> when it bailed out financial institutions. This is the same problem
> with these large projects, they convince themselves that because
they
> have so much money that they couldn't fail. They also believed it
and
> made decisions accordingly.
> I appreciate the information on Range's development of a
special
> steel. I wonder where it is now? it is also interesting to see that
> serious, seasoned project managers are not in sight, but come from
the
> IT world (as did Range's financing).
> Of course, when Farmland Industries hired Texaco to refit the
> Coolwater (originally near Barstow, California) coal gasifier to
> petcoke, they fired them after 6 months because they didn't do much
> besides spend money. Farmland took over the work themselves and
made it
> work, but it drove them into bankruptcy.
> There are a few consultants out there who can do a productive
> contribution, but they have to be very, very carefully managed or
else
> they spend lot of your money.
> Sincerely,
> Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Koch <tk at tke.dk>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Sat, Jul 9, 2011 11:54 am
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> It is a very interesting question you raise.
>
> What can be learned from Range Fuels and from CHOREN
>
> I have visited both companies trying to help them feeding biomass
into
> their reactors and spend quit a lot of brain work on both.
>
> One common thing is that both did not answer simpel normal
questions.
>
> I did not understand the energy balance on Range and the Mass
balance
> on CHOREN.
>
> And questions was ansvered by business development people.
>
> I remember a meeting at CHOREN where I asked about the low melting
ash
> components - where did they go and how did it work?
> The business development manager started a long specialtive
explanation
> about how they washed it out of the char - after it had been taken
out
> of the pressurised enclosure - and then the char was put back into
the
> process with out these troublesome ash components.
> My business development manager had $$$ in his eyes - imagine all
the
> feeders we could sell - (we counted 7 pressurised in and outlet on
each
> gasifier!!!!) if we could just focus on this problem instead of
> discussing ash and other irrelevant issues.
> At the site visit 2 of their engineers told me that they had tried
to
> draw the attention of the management to this problem with little
> succes.
> My imagination tells my that you can identify 50 similar issues at
> CHOREN.
>
> Similar I had a discussion with a manager at RANGE - he had
realised
> that the complexity could potentially be a problem. He was a former
> succesfull business man from Apple.
> I tried to explain him the consequenses of thermal transient in a
> startup situation when you have square hot geometries. He then
> explained me that at Range they had invented a refractory steel
that
> could stand 100 degree higher temperatures than the most expensive
> Haynes cobalt/steel alloy. I congratulated him with this invention
and
> predicted that he would be come a VERY rich man just by this singel
> invention.
> I dont think he understood one word of what I said to him.
>
> The lesson I have learned is that all projects my full fill 5
rules.
> 1 First law of thermodynamics - Mass will not be made from nothing
and
> can not dissapear
> 2 Second law of thermodynamics - No matter what you do you make a
loss
> :-)
> 3 First law of money - Money will not be made from nothing but can
> disappear
> 4 Common sense mut be applied to all elements in the process.
> 5 You can fool your selves but only others if you pay them their
> salary.
>
> And making projects by consultants - FORGET IT!!
>
> Best regards
>
> Thomas Koch
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________
> Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] på vegne af
> linvent at aol.com [linvent at aol.com]
> Sendt: 9. juli 2011 17:32
> Til: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Emne: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> Dear Tom Miles and the list:
> One thing that should be learned is that when there is a lot
of
> money around, the tendency is to hire a lot of folks and then the
> pressure is on to burn money fast. I also see "financing issues
with
> start up of commercial plant" to read, too expensive, has technical
> issues, vis a vis Range Fuels and others. This is a repeat of even
the
> Downdraft system from Grabowski under Syngas co. This was even
> partially funded in the 80's by a group which had provided funding
to
> Thermogenics and the lead financier called me several years after
> funding Syngas to say that i was right, it would fail. They
decided to
> not fund Thermogenics because of the lack of PhD's who could argue
that
> their process was better. Not having a degree made my arguments not
> listened to.
> The question arises as to what to do with a large staff which
> initially does engineering work, and then when the design is
completed,
> what are they doing next until the design is completed and
operational?
> This is why to some extent, this work being done by consultants
may be
> better of a business structure.
> Unfortunately, the financial world relies on degrees for
results
> which paves the way downhill. A multiple PhD in mathematics who was
> Sandia National Laboratories' lead mathematician, with Stanford and
> Caltech on his CV, had a saying on his door "A thermometer is not
the
> only thing with degrees and no brains".
> The more of these large operations to hit the walls, the more
> difficult the field will be to get serious project financing and
move
> forward. There are others slated to fail in near term from what I
have
> been hearing, high profile supposedly "successful commercial
> operations".
> Sincerely,
> Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
> President
> Thermogenics Inc.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dl <d0xunt at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Fri, Jul 8, 2011 4:43 pm
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] What happened at Choren
>
> http://www.choren.com/en/information-and-press/press-releases/
>
>
> Going into bankruptcy in Germany.
>
>
> Dan Lacy
>
> The best way to compile inaccurate information that no one wants
is to
> make it up.
> Scott Adams
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 8, 2011, at 3:25 PM, "Tom Miles" <tmiles at trmiles.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> This Google alert abut Choren should be on interest to anyone who
has
> follwoed biomass pyrolysis an dgiasification to syngas. See the
Google
> Alert link below. Tom News1 new result for gasifier What
Happened
> at Choren?
> Consumer Energy Report
> The gasifier would be scaled up from the pilot plant scale of 1 MW
th
> to 45 MW th . Shell's Fischer-Tropsch technology was being used in
the
> plant, ...
>
>
>
>
>
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