[Gasification] More on, gasification economics

Fri Apr 20 06:33:11 CDT 2012

Greetings List.

For what it's worth....

Smart grid controls are called "computer controlled, close transition
switches" around here, they HAVE to be installed by the company that
built them, AND have to follow the Canadian Electrical Code, AS WELL
as the IEEE set of interconnection guidelines to get approved by the
local electricity provider (Manitoba Hydro)

It's simply not just "jumping through hoops" it's the fact that they
look at us as a hassle, NOT an addition.

Some Figures.

 50 Kw E, plant, large enough to provide 2 homes in a crisis, and a
hand full of "out buildings".

cost of build (used as a stand alone "off grid" ) 23,000 dollars US

Add inspection and certification (to the point of "turn key"
connection to grid)  ADD to above 73,000 dollars US

What makes more sense  ??

NOTE: that this is a Owner run system, NOT a commercial installation.

They claim that they are interested and cite many documents when you
look into it, but in the end, all they want to do is ... well you
know.

Payback at a home level that still meets Canadian Electrical Code, we
are looking at about 8 years (based on not having an electrical bill).
4-1/2, if we provide one neighbor with electricity and charge slightly
less then the utility.

Payback at an interconnected level, on their level of pay (0.022
cents/kWh) running 24/7, Total cost with interest, 31 years.

What makes more sense ??

Greg Manning

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 7:04 PM, Peter & Kerry
<realpowersystems at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20/04/2012 5:00 AM, gasification-request at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:
>>
>> It does seem to be very much a matter of having all your technical
>> details available in the form they want so that you can demonstrate that
>> you will disconnect from the grid when it's down, your power quality
>> will be good etc It's simple now to get PV's - up to 100kWe anyway -
>> connected to the grid in Oz as the regulators/utilities are comfortable
>> with the technical issues. 20 years ago this was definitely not the
>> case. When I suggested to the Vic regulator in the mid-90's that we
>> should follow the US lead with PURPA the response was decidedly not
>> favorable. Now we have getting on for 1 million rooftop PV installations
>> in Oz. If you have new kit you can expect to have to jump through some
>> hoops.
>>
>> As for supplying in to the grid as against supplying a co-located demand
>> on a levelised energy cost basis you will struggle in Australia to
>> compete against large coal fired stations producing electricity at a few
>> cents/kWh receiving perhaps 5-6c/kWh to supply into the grid. If you can
>> supply a co-located load that's paying the utility for power at, say,
>> 10c-25c/kWh your economics start to look a lot better. If you start
>> bidding to supply into the grid to meet peak loads the price can be a
>> lot better but you will be on the hook to supply that power. Or to hedge
>> your supply which will cost you.
>
> David,
>
> You are quite right and we made the decision not to actively seek grid
> connection opportunities and focus on off grid or avoided grid cost
> reduction and non electricity centric products as all our experiences with
> Utilities were very negative, "Every assistance short of help" seems to be
> the unspoken policy.
>
> They seem less reluctant to wear <10kWe connections (so long as individual
> branch line loads don't exceed 200kW) though it is hard to say yet whether
> this will apply to biomass power plants but we will see in due course,
> remember solar was mandated so they had no choice, but every manager I spoke
> to whined about the burden on their resources, the uncertainties imposed on
> grid management and the high cost they would need to pass on to their
> customers. Given the million or so small solar installations have made not
> one jot of difference to the traditional infrastructure cost of utilities or
> the level of conventional generating assets required to meet peak demand
> they might have some grounds to complain.
>
> The highest "in principle" PPA offered (for a proposed 2MWe biomass power
> plant) was 4c/kWhr (the average coal fired wholesale price at this location
> was 5c...), which is as you say another disincentive. We even had a client
> in the ACT who was really keen to put in a 1MWe waste wood fueled plant but
> after spending all day on the phone to the local utility being passed from
> one person to another they gave up after the 6th such shuffle referred them
> back to the utilities website so our client could buy green power off the
> utility rather than go to the trouble to generate it themselves...(there
> appears no transparency as to how such "Green" power sold at a premium by
> the utility was actually obtained). Yet the ACT Government was willing to
> spend millions to get a large MW scale solar plant into the region...go
> figure.
>
> Anyway the point is the demand and market requirements often talked about
> are largely intellectual constructs, with a catch 22 thrown in which reads
> something like "We need to promote and develop technologies for this
> purpose, unless this is inadvertently achieved in which case we need to
> change the requirements"
>
> (Hey its not my fault, I was born an optimist they made me into a cynic)
>
> I am told by the solar installers that the grid tied systems can't act as
> stand alone house power when the grid goes down for any reason, even though
> this is technically possible without risking the safety of line workers
> repairing a blown transformer for example, somewhat detracting from many
> home owners dreams of being self sufficient in a crisis. We have discussed
> this with some utilities and they seemed to like the idea of "Smart Grid"
> controls fitted to biomass power plants as these could then be managed
> directly by the utility, turning them off, on, up and down as required for
> best grid management (great synergy then with solar PV & wind as a flexible
> renewable energy matrix), cumulatively the "poles & wires" providers could
> embed dozens or even hundreds of MW's of distributed generation capacity
> without the normal costs or problems of large centralised plants, early days
> in all this though since it also requires a change in status quo, never
> easy. If it did happen though, then Oz could potentially meet 30% of its
> existing electricity needs from such "Stored Solar" (biomass) resources and
> bootstrap a higher solar/wind mix than otherwise prudent for grid stability.
>
> At the end of the day though electricity is second only to process heat as
> the lowest value commodity, transport fuels and chemical feed stocks being a
> far more attractive target for gasification technologies with avoided
> landfill/waste disposal costs topping returns. Lots of public funding
> available to research and develop this, but not for anyone who can actually
> do it though since this would disrupt the gravy train.
>
> Is it all depressing? Not at all. Firstly at a small scale lots of people
> want or need to be grid independent (if you can build a system that meets
> their needs), secondly at commercial scales with some careful planning and
> hard real life research there are some really intriguing and potentially
> viable approaches using a little technology blending and lateral
> marketing...hate to spoil this though by announcing it in time for the
> policy makers and vested interests to stuff it up...
>
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
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-- 
 Regards,

Greg Manning,
Brandon, Manitoba, Canada