[Gasification] Gasification Digest, Vol 41, Issue 21
Ben Hansen
ben at mwt.net
Sun Jan 26 13:43:26 CST 2014
I love the concept of adding value to wood by driving it further. I have
problems with the notion of mileage value adding even if you're driving the
truck on wood gas however
There are simply too many variables, making effective use of local
resources , natural aspiration, cool drying of properly sized sorted
substrates is the way to go.
My two cents worth.
Benjamen Hansen
On Jan 26, 2014 1:00 PM, <gasification-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>
wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Chip drying without pyrolysing; Biocoal manufacture. (Doug)
> 2. Re: Chip drying without pyrolysing; Biocoal manufacture.
> (darius_tamizi)
> 3. Re: Chip drying without pyrolysing; Biocoal manufacture.
> (Thomas Koch)
> 4. Re: Chip drying without pyrolysing; Biocoal manufacture.
> (Luke Gardner)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 09:12:00 +1300
> From: Doug <Doug.Williams at orcon.net.nz>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Chip drying without pyrolysing; Biocoal
> manufacture.
> Message-ID: <20140126091200.9f6b20d099a08496b9451622 at orcon.net.nz>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>
> Hi Tom and Colleagues,
>
> Having spent the first 9 years of my "trade "life in transport
> engineering, your idea is sound but difficult to put into practice. Chip
> trucks are tippers, so the exhaust would have to enter the box via a
> flexible hinge at the rear of the body. Not impossible, but difficult to
> organise as most exhausts exit vertically up the back of the cab. You would
> then need a body floor that is probably perforated, or for trials fitted
> with a piping system on top of the floor.
>
> Having used exhausts a lot over the years into drum driers, but not
> closely controlled to 300C, but around 300C just the same, given enough
> time, the chip on the bottom starts to cook, and you see this at a point
> when steam and blue smoke comes out the top. This is much the same problem
> for any static pile, so introduces the need for chip movement. Rotational
> drying is a known technology, but in the circumstances that we might dry
> chips for gasification and whatever, I have often thought that our primary
> sources of heat is slightly different in it's acquisition to those of most
> commercially available dryers.
>
> While we continue to seek easy solutions and simplicity of design, the
> answers to these questions remain complex for those charged with resolving
> the problems. The calculations may show what might be possible, but it
> doesn't tell you how it's achieved(:-)
>
> Doug Williams,
> Fluidyne.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:27:58 -0500
> Tom Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Here's a simple solution, and I hope someone will try it before I need
> to.
> >
> > If you are transporting the chips any distance by truck, 2/3 of the
> truck's fuel goes out the exhaust pipe as heat, enough to dry a load of
> chips the truck is carrying. The temperature of the exhaust is closer to
> 600C as it leaves the engine, too hot for drying. But if air is aspirated
> into a side stream of exhaust the ratio of exhaust heat to added air could
> be adjusted with a simple spring thermostat to 300 C (or other as required)
> to "cook or cool" the wet chips without overhearing them. There is plenty
> of exhaust pressure available for the aspiration before the muffler, and
> the drying would muffle this side stream as well.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 07:57:12 +0700
> From: darius_tamizi <darius_tamizi at hotmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Chip drying without pyrolysing; Biocoal
> manufacture.
> Message-ID: <COL402-EAS387318564D749308DA966CB8AA30 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Drying static rawwoodchip pile with heat is almost impossible.
>
> With temp lower than 150C, water vapor condense before leaving the pile.
>
> With temp higher than 150C, you will get fire from the drychip at the
> bottom
>
>
> Terkirim dari Samsung Mobile
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Doug <Doug.Williams at orcon.net.nz>
> Date: 26/01/2014 03:12 (GMT+07:00)
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification <
> gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Chip drying without pyrolysing; Biocoal
> manufacture.
>
>
> Hi Tom and Colleagues,
>
> Having spent the first 9 years of my "trade "life in transport
> engineering, your idea is sound but difficult to put into practice. Chip
> trucks are tippers, so the exhaust would have to enter the box via a
> flexible hinge at the rear of the body. Not impossible, but difficult to
> organise as most exhausts exit vertically up the back of the cab. You would
> then need a body floor that is probably perforated, or for trials fitted
> with a piping system on top of the floor.
>
> Having used exhausts a lot over the years into drum driers, but not
> closely controlled to 300C, but around 300C just the same, given enough
> time, the chip on the bottom starts to cook, and you see this at a point
> when steam and blue smoke comes out the top. This is much the same problem
> for any static pile, so introduces the need for chip movement. Rotational
> drying is a known technology, but in the circumstances that we might dry
> chips for gasification and whatever, I have often thought that our primary
> sources of heat is slightly different in it's acquisition to those of most
> commercially available dryers.
>
> While we continue to seek easy solutions and simplicity of design, the
> answers to these questions remain complex for those charged with resolving
> the problems. The calculations may show what might be possible, but it
> doesn't tell you how it's achieved(:-)
>
> Doug Williams,
> Fluidyne.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:27:58 -0500
> Tom Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Here's a simple solution, and I hope someone will try it before I need
> to.?
> >
> > If you are transporting the chips any distance by truck, 2/3 of the
> truck's fuel goes out the exhaust pipe as heat, enough to dry a load of
> chips the truck is carrying.? The temperature of the exhaust is closer to
> 600C as it leaves the engine, too hot for drying.? But if air is aspirated
> into a side stream of exhaust the ratio of exhaust heat to added air could
> be adjusted with a simple spring thermostat to 300 C (or other as required)
> to "cook or cool" the wet chips without overhearing them.? There is plenty
> of exhaust pressure available for the aspiration before the muffler, and
> the drying would muffle this side stream as well.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gasification mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Gasifiers,? News and Information see our web site:
> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 01:04:15 +0000
> From: Thomas Koch <tk at tke.dk>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Chip drying without pyrolysing; Biocoal
> manufacture.
> Message-ID:
> <4F20766DE525FF408A7C148DBBD0A91D1428A126 at SRV-MAIN.tkenergi.local>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> If you blow some air up through the chips pile it becomes much easier
>
> Thomas Koch
>
> Fra: Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org]
> P? vegne af darius_tamizi
> Sendt: 26. januar 2014 01:57
> Til: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Emne: Re: [Gasification] Chip drying without pyrolysing; Biocoal
> manufacture.
>
> Drying static rawwoodchip pile with heat is almost impossible.
>
> With temp lower than 150C, water vapor condense before leaving the pile.
>
> With temp higher than 150C, you will get fire from the drychip at the
> bottom
>
>
> Terkirim dari Samsung Mobile
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Doug <Doug.Williams at orcon.net.nz<mailto:Doug.Williams at orcon.net.nz>>
> Date: 26/01/2014 03:12 (GMT+07:00)
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification <
> gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org<mailto:
> gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
> Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org
> <mailto:stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Chip drying without pyrolysing; Biocoal
> manufacture.
>
>
>
> Hi Tom and Colleagues,
>
> Having spent the first 9 years of my "trade "life in transport
> engineering, your idea is sound but difficult to put into practice. Chip
> trucks are tippers, so the exhaust would have to enter the box via a
> flexible hinge at the rear of the body. Not impossible, but difficult to
> organise as most exhausts exit vertically up the back of the cab. You would
> then need a body floor that is probably perforated, or for trials fitted
> with a piping system on top of the floor.
>
> Having used exhausts a lot over the years into drum driers, but not
> closely controlled to 300C, but around 300C just the same, given enough
> time, the chip on the bottom starts to cook, and you see this at a point
> when steam and blue smoke comes out the top. This is much the same problem
> for any static pile, so introduces the need for chip movement. Rotational
> drying is a known technology, but in the circumstances that we might dry
> chips for gasification and whatever, I have often thought that our primary
> sources of heat is slightly different in it's acquisition to those of most
> commercially available dryers.
>
> While we continue to seek easy solutions and simplicity of design, the
> answers to these questions remain complex for those charged with resolving
> the problems. The calculations may show what might be possible, but it
> doesn't tell you how it's achieved(:-)
>
> Doug Williams,
> Fluidyne.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:27:58 -0500
> Tom Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com<mailto:tombreed2010 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >
> > Here's a simple solution, and I hope someone will try it before I need
> to.
> >
> > If you are transporting the chips any distance by truck, 2/3 of the
> truck's fuel goes out the exhaust pipe as heat, enough to dry a load of
> chips the truck is carrying. The temperature of the exhaust is closer to
> 600C as it leaves the engine, too hot for drying. But if air is aspirated
> into a side stream of exhaust the ratio of exhaust heat to added air could
> be adjusted with a simple spring thermostat to 300 C (or other as required)
> to "cook or cool" the wet chips without overhearing them. There is plenty
> of exhaust pressure available for the aspiration before the muffler, and
> the drying would muffle this side stream as well.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gasification mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Gasification at bioenergylists.org<mailto:Gasification at bioenergylists.org>
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:
> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
> -------------- next part --------------
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> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20140126/ed71c08b/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:10:38 -0800
> From: "Luke Gardner" <lgardner at wwest.net>
> To: "Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification"
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Chip drying without pyrolysing; Biocoal
> manufacture.
> Message-ID: <9703BCE8A34047CD861D9F13F97431AE at CrystalHP>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> wet chips... wet chips... wet chips
> getting them to be dry chips is a real hurdel
> yes darius its like Goldie locks? double edged sword (if you follow)
> try to use heat, and they catch fire... big problem
> strap that fire waiting to happen to a 100k$ truck with 50 gallons of
> diesel aboard.... real big problem.
> it is of my mind that a motorized trommel is the way to go. If the
> trommel is set with about a 15 degree down angle the chips will migrate
> from the feed end (upper) toward the output end (lower) as it revolves.
> The motor running it could be geared way down, and put on a timer such
> that every hour it kicks on for a minute and makes one half revolution.
> A long trommel would also give the opportunity create stages, such that
> the first stage could have finer screen, the bin below this section would
> fill with ?fines? smaller than desired.
> Then the next stage could be screened for the target chip size. with a bin
> below.
> The output end of the trommel could fall into a bin of larger than desired
> chips, chunks, sticks.
> My gasifier has not run in a few years because of a lack of dry chips, or
> shall I say the mess and time and energy required to dry chips. I will
> have more into fuel prep than I will have into the entire
> gasifier/generator.
> it is my belief that one needs to allow nature to remove the unwanted
> water, because if you try to force the issue not only does the whole system
> become net negative, but the risk of fire eventually becomes unmanageable.
> Gotta flip the chip, and be cool about it.
>
> Luke Gardner
>
>
>
> From: darius_tamizi
> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 4:57 PM
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Chip drying without pyrolysing; Biocoal
> manufacture.
>
> Drying static rawwoodchip pile with heat is almost impossible.
>
> With temp lower than 150C, water vapor condense before leaving the pile.
>
> With temp higher than 150C, you will get fire from the drychip at the
> bottom
>
>
> Terkirim dari Samsung Mobile
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Doug <Doug.Williams at orcon.net.nz>
> Date: 26/01/2014 03:12 (GMT+07:00)
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification <
> gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Chip drying without pyrolysing; Biocoal
> manufacture.
>
>
>
> Hi Tom and Colleagues,
>
> Having spent the first 9 years of my "trade "life in transport
> engineering, your idea is sound but difficult to put into practice. Chip
> trucks are tippers, so the exhaust would have to enter the box via a
> flexible hinge at the rear of the body. Not impossible, but difficult to
> organise as most exhausts exit vertically up the back of the cab. You would
> then need a body floor that is probably perforated, or for trials fitted
> with a piping system on top of the floor.
>
> Having used exhausts a lot over the years into drum driers, but not
> closely controlled to 300C, but around 300C just the same, given enough
> time, the chip on the bottom starts to cook, and you see this at a point
> when steam and blue smoke comes out the top. This is much the same problem
> for any static pile, so introduces the need for chip movement. Rotational
> drying is a known technology, but in the circumstances that we might dry
> chips for gasification and whatever, I have often thought that our primary
> sources of heat is slightly different in it's acquisition to those of most
> commercially available dryers.
>
> While we continue to seek easy solutions and simplicity of design, the
> answers to these questions remain complex for those charged with resolving
> the problems. The calculations may show what might be possible, but it
> doesn't tell you how it's achieved(:-)
>
> Doug Williams,
> Fluidyne.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 08:27:58 -0500
> Tom Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Here's a simple solution, and I hope someone will try it before I need
> to.
> >
> > If you are transporting the chips any distance by truck, 2/3 of the
> truck's fuel goes out the exhaust pipe as heat, enough to dry a load of
> chips the truck is carrying. The temperature of the exhaust is closer to
> 600C as it leaves the engine, too hot for drying. But if air is aspirated
> into a side stream of exhaust the ratio of exhaust heat to added air could
> be adjusted with a simple spring thermostat to 300 C (or other as required)
> to "cook or cool" the wet chips without overhearing them. There is plenty
> of exhaust pressure available for the aspiration before the muffler, and
> the drying would muffle this side stream as well.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gasification mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:
> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Gasification mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:
> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
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>
> Subject: Digest Footer
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Gasification Digest, Vol 41, Issue 21
> ********************************************
>
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