[Greenbuilding] Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 11, Issue 17
Bob and Jean
rnavazio at aol.com
Thu Aug 11 12:02:09 CDT 2011
Jean Merritt and Bob Navazio
7178 S Flatwood Rd
Pekin, IN 47165
H: 812-967-7798
C: 502-472-6471
On Jul 28, 2011, at 3:00 PM, greenbuilding-request at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:
> Send Greenbuilding mailing list submissions to
> greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> greenbuilding-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> greenbuilding-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Greenbuilding digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Redoing all floors (RT)
> 2. Re: Redoing all floors (Jason Holstine)
> 3. Re: Redoing all floors (Andrew Pace)
> 4. Re: Redoing all floors (Jason Holstine)
> 5. Re: Redoing all floors (Andrew Pace)
> 6. Re: Redoing all floors (Ktot (g))
> 7. Re: Redoing all floors (Ktot (g))
> 8. Re: Redoing all floors (Reuben Deumling)
> 9. Re: Redoing all floors (Ktot (g))
> 10. Re: Redoing all floors (Ktot (g))
> 11. Re: Redoing all floors (Ktot (g))
> 12. Re: Redoing all floors (Andrew Pace)
> 13. Re: Redoing all floors (Ktot (g))
> 14. Re: Redoing all floors (Andrew Pace)
> 15. Re: Redoing all floors (Bob Klahn)
> 16. Re: Counters (Steve Houlihan)
> 17. Re: Counters (JOHN SALMEN)
> 18. Re: Redoing all floors (Nick Pyner)
> 19. Re: Counters (Bobbi Chukran)
> 20. Re: Counters (Bobbi Chukran)
> 21. Re: Counters (Reuben Deumling)
> 22. Re: Counters (Bobbi Chukran)
> 23. Re: Counters (Bobbi Chukran)
> 24. Re: Counters (JOHN SALMEN)
> 25. Re: Redoing all floors (Lynelle Hamilton)
> 26. Re: Counters (Lynelle Hamilton)
> 27. Re: Counters (Bob Klahn)
> 28. Re: Counters (JOHN SALMEN)
> 29. Re: Counters (Lynelle Hamilton)
> 30. Re: Redoing all floors (JOHN SALMEN)
> 31. Re: Counters (JOHN SALMEN)
> 32. Re: Counters (Bobbi Chukran)
> 33. Re: Redoing all floors (Ktot (g))
> 34. Re: Redoing all floors (Anncha)
> 35. Re: Redoing all floors (JOHN SALMEN)
> 36. Re: Redoing all floors (Lynelle Hamilton)
> 37. semantics (Alan Abrams)
> 38. Re: Redoing all floors (Ktot (g))
> 39. Re: Redoing all floors (JOHN SALMEN)
> 40. Re: Redoing all floors (Anncha)
> 41. Re: Redoing all floors (RT)
> 42. Re: Just an update (Marilyn)
> 43. Re: Redoing all floors (Jeff Buscher)
> 44. Re: Redoing all floors (Anncha)
> 45. Re: Redoing all floors (Alan Abrams)
> 46. Re: Redoing all floors (Anncha)
> 47. Re: Counters (Leslie Moyer)
> 48. Re: semantics (Reuben Deumling)
> 49. Re: Redoing all floors (Ktot (g))
> 50. Re: semantics (Alan Abrams)
> 51. Re: Redoing all floors (Ktot (g))
> 52. 10 kW solar power plant production (RT)
> 53. Re: Redoing all floors (Ktot (g))
> 54. Re: Redoing all floors (Ktot (g))
> 55. Re: 10 kW solar power plant production (Reuben Deumling)
> 56. Re: Redoing all floors (Sacie Lambertson)
> 57. Re: Redoing all floors (Jeff Buscher)
> 58. Re: Counters (Ward Edwards)
> 59. Re: Redoing all floors (Anncha)
> 60. Re: semantics (Corwyn)
> 61. semantics, concrete (Clarke Olsen)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:23:44 -0400
> From: RT <Archilogic at yahoo.ca>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <op.vzalhsz0t09nld at t60-pc>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed;
> delsp=yes
>
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:29:13 -0400, Ktot (g) <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I explained that in my initial email--less than half the required curing
>> time for the concrete. Thus moisture is trapped under the sealer
>
> Actually, one of the reasons that sealers are applied to new concrete is
> to prevent premature loss of the mixing water (evaporation) so that the
> cement in the mix has an opportunity to fully hydrate, thereby bettering
> the chances of a good quality concrete ... so "trapped" is a Good Thing.
>
> The strength vs time curve for concrete pretty much levels off after ~30
> days
>
> http://www.theconstructioncivil.com/2009/09/concrete-curing.html
>
> so one should try and keep the mixing water from evaporating or being lost
> to the substrate during that "curing" period.
>
> I prefer to simply keep the green concrete tightly covered with a
> protected polyethylene sheet during that curing period but a chemical
> sealer is the more common choice. ("Protection" being cut-off scraps of
> sheet goods like OSB, plywood or even gypsum board)
>
> Too often though, for the sake of finishing expedience, the mixing water
> is allowed to evaporate too rapidly (and/or lost to the substrate , there
> being no moisture barrier used beneath) and then is followed by repeated
> soakings/subsequent evaporations after (improper at that) finishing -- all
> of which lead to poor quality concrete that is weak, dusts/abrades easily,
> much of the cement having been leached out of the mix (ie quite likely the
> whitish "blooms" than Ktot mentions).
>
> And oftentimes, water is added to the concrete mix during placement to
> make placement and leveling easier. That too messes up the all-critical
> water-cement ratio which seriously compromises the concrete quality.
>
>
> --
> === * ===
> Rob Tom
> Kanata, Ontario, Canada
> < A r c h i L o g i c at Y a h o o dot C A >
> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit REPLY)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:36:10 -0400
> From: Jason Holstine <jason at amicusgreen.com>
> To: Greenbuilding Listserv <Greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <CA55E0EA.15BC7%jason at amicusgreen.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Can you etch the concrete to remove the current sealer, strip the stain with
> paint stripper, let the concrete properly dry and cure, then go back and
> stain and refinish?
>
> Also ? any concrete will naturally have a certain unpredictability in the
> finish pattern, with random burnishing and highs and lows of color. So I
> typically recommend take advantage of that, fly with it, and stain with a
> creative, random, very cool stain pattern. You won?t know what?s mistake/old
> mess-up and what?s intentionally part of the pattern.
>
>
> On 7/27/11 2:29 PM, "Ktot (g)" <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I explained that in my initial email--less than half the required curing
>> time for the concrete. Thus moisture is trapped under the sealer, creating
>> white "blooms" everywhere. Also whole patches of stain and sealer are coming
>> up which may be due to poor combination of products, use of diesel/propane
>> heaters, other, or also the lack of cure time.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Corwyn" <corwyn at midcoast.com>
>> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 1:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>>
>>
>>>> On 7/27/2011 1:09 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>>>>>> I have a brand new home (finished mid-May) that is completely off-grid.
>>>>>> Solar and wind power, solar thermal radiant heat and hot water, and
>>>>>> passive solar design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem--the stained concrete floors and countertops are defective.
>>>>>> The countertops should be an easy fix--sanding and applying another
>>>>>> layer of epoxy. But the floors are very problematic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First, the supposedly very experienced contractor who did them is
>>>>>> refusing to take responsibility for their defective work--they didn't
>>>>>> allow the concrete even 1/2 the curing time required--but my attorney is
>>>>>> addressing that.
>>>>
>>>> What exactly is wrong with the floors?
>>>>
>>>> Thank You Kindly,
>>>>
>>>> Corwyn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Topher Belknap
>>>> Green Fret Consulting
>>>> Kermit didn't know the half of it...
>>>> http://www.greenfret.com/
>>>> topher at greenfret.com
>>>> (207) 882-7652
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>>
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenerg
>>> ylists.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergy
>> lists.org
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/9242d407/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:49:37 -0500
> From: Andrew Pace <andy at safebuildingsolutions.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <CA55D601.27D34%andy at safebuildingsolutions.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Jason...acid etching the concrete won?t remove the sealer and paint stripper
> won?t remove the stain. Acid etching only works when the acid has ?access?
> to the free lime in the concrete. The sealer...seals it...so this isn?t an
> option. The stain should be in the concrete and not on top of it, so
> stripping wont be effective. The only way to remove the sealer and stain
> would be to shot blast.
>
> Andrew Pace
> Green Design Center?
> Waukesha, WI
>
>
>
>
> On 7/27/11 2:36 PM, "Jason Holstine" <jason at amicusgreen.com> wrote:
>
>> Can you etch the concrete to remove the current sealer, strip the stain with
>> paint stripper, let the concrete properly dry and cure, then go back and stain
>> and refinish?
>>
>> Also ? any concrete will naturally have a certain unpredictability in the
>> finish pattern, with random burnishing and highs and lows of color. So I
>> typically recommend take advantage of that, fly with it, and stain with a
>> creative, random, very cool stain pattern. You won?t know what?s mistake/old
>> mess-up and what?s intentionally part of the pattern.
>>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/3253b688/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 16:01:52 -0400
> From: Jason Holstine <jason at amicusgreen.com>
> To: Greenbuilding Listserv <Greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <CA55E6F0.15BD7%jason at amicusgreen.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> Tell that to my own concrete, when a customer decided to spill a gallon of
> paint, and we used our soy-based paint stripper and it tore right through
> the spilled paint, sealer, and soy-based stain so the concrete ended up
> looking bare. It doesn?t have to be an acid etch to ?etch? up the sealers.
> Ultimately, the success of the approach depends on the concrete and how deep
> these finishes/stains were allowed to get. If the concrete was messed up,
> they may well be sitting more on top than in it.
>
>
>
> On 7/27/11 3:49 PM, "Andrew Pace" <andy at safebuildingsolutions.com> wrote:
>
>> Jason...acid etching the concrete won?t remove the sealer and paint stripper
>> won?t remove the stain. Acid etching only works when the acid has ?access? to
>> the free lime in the concrete. The sealer...seals it...so this isn?t an
>> option. The stain should be in the concrete and not on top of it, so
>> stripping wont be effective. The only way to remove the sealer and stain
>> would be to shot blast.
>>
>> Andrew Pace
>> Green Design Center?
>> Waukesha, WI
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/27/11 2:36 PM, "Jason Holstine" <jason at amicusgreen.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Can you etch the concrete to remove the current sealer, strip the stain with
>>> paint stripper, let the concrete properly dry and cure, then go back and
>>> stain and refinish?
>>>
>>> Also ? any concrete will naturally have a certain unpredictability in the
>>> finish pattern, with random burnishing and highs and lows of color. So I
>>> typically recommend take advantage of that, fly with it, and stain with a
>>> creative, random, very cool stain pattern. You won?t know what?s mistake/old
>>> mess-up and what?s intentionally part of the pattern.
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergy
>> lists.org
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/0cf16777/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:29:42 -0500
> From: Andrew Pace <andy at safebuildingsolutions.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <CA55DF66.27D44%andy at safebuildingsolutions.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Jason... I?ve been in the industrial coating biz since 1989, so etching to
> me has always meant ?acid etching?. Any other type of surface prep would be
> called something different....blasting, scrabbling, scarifying, etc. Not
> everyone uses the correct terminology, so mistakes can be made. Too many
> contractors who don?t know how to prepare concrete have tried to acid etch a
> slab that has a cure-n-seal on it, only to find that the acid doesn?t work.
> In your situation, the stripper worked because the paint, sealer and stain
> are all topical. However, If you tried to acid etch that surface without
> stripping it first, it wouldn?t do a thing.
>
> Off topic...Those soy-based stains...I?m still not convinced there is any
> ?green? benefit to them. According to what I?ve read, don?t you have to
> acid etch bare concrete before applying the stain? So, if you are still
> using an acid, why is the stain any more eco-friendly than using an acid
> stain? Just curious.
>
> Andy
>
>
>
> On 7/27/11 3:01 PM, "Jason Holstine" <jason at amicusgreen.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Andy,
>>
>> Tell that to my own concrete, when a customer decided to spill a gallon of
>> paint, and we used our soy-based paint stripper and it tore right through the
>> spilled paint, sealer, and soy-based stain so the concrete ended up looking
>> bare. It doesn?t have to be an acid etch to ?etch? up the sealers.
>> Ultimately, the success of the approach depends on the concrete and how deep
>> these finishes/stains were allowed to get. If the concrete was messed up,
>> they may well be sitting more on top than in it.
>>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/ddd7aebe/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 16:56:11 -0500
> From: "Ktot \(g\)" <ktottotc at gmail.com>
> To: <ArchiLogic at chaffyahoo.ca>, "Green Building"
> <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <61369E033AF543E4BF89D969A209972A at Barb27E1513D96>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> Interesting. Mine was 11 days from pour to seal. Stain was applied just 2-3
> days after pouring. The company that did the staining/sealing also did the
> pouring so they knew the mix they used. Talking to various experts, at least
> 28 days should have been left between pour and cure. Even the sealer specs
> say at least 14 days at 70 degrees and this was at about 30 degrees.
> Furthermore, moisure was apparently added from the diesel and propane
> heaters the contractor used to try to speed up drying. That may also have
> caused some of the calcium carbonate that formed.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "RT" <Archilogic at yahoo.ca>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 2:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:29:13 -0400, Ktot (g) <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I explained that in my initial email--less than half the required curing
>>> time for the concrete. Thus moisture is trapped under the sealer
>>
>> Actually, one of the reasons that sealers are applied to new concrete is
>> to prevent premature loss of the mixing water (evaporation) so that the
>> cement in the mix has an opportunity to fully hydrate, thereby bettering
>> the chances of a good quality concrete ... so "trapped" is a Good Thing.
>>
>> The strength vs time curve for concrete pretty much levels off after ~30
>> days
>>
>> http://www.theconstructioncivil.com/2009/09/concrete-curing.html
>>
>> so one should try and keep the mixing water from evaporating or being lost
>> to the substrate during that "curing" period.
>>
>> I prefer to simply keep the green concrete tightly covered with a
>> protected polyethylene sheet during that curing period but a chemical
>> sealer is the more common choice. ("Protection" being cut-off scraps of
>> sheet goods like OSB, plywood or even gypsum board)
>>
>> Too often though, for the sake of finishing expedience, the mixing water
>> is allowed to evaporate too rapidly (and/or lost to the substrate , there
>> being no moisture barrier used beneath) and then is followed by repeated
>> soakings/subsequent evaporations after (improper at that) finishing -- all
>> of which lead to poor quality concrete that is weak, dusts/abrades easily,
>> much of the cement having been leached out of the mix (ie quite likely the
>> whitish "blooms" than Ktot mentions).
>>
>> And oftentimes, water is added to the concrete mix during placement to
>> make placement and leveling easier. That too messes up the all-critical
>> water-cement ratio which seriously compromises the concrete quality.
>>
>>
>> --
>> === * ===
>> Rob Tom
>> Kanata, Ontario, Canada
>> < A r c h i L o g i c at Y a h o o dot C A >
>> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit REPLY)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:00:15 -0500
> From: "Ktot \(g\)" <ktottotc at gmail.com>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <3360378D51DE4EC0B8B8FDF6D5DD6BBB at Barb27E1513D96>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floorsBelieve me, white "blooms" do NOT make a very cool stain pattern. The floor is incredibly ugly. It's an upscale house but if any one walked in to potentially buy it (it's not for sale), they'd run out screaming--the floors are absolutely terrible. Besides the various blooms, there are lines next to where red paper and apparently tape was applied--clearly showing where moisture leaked out next to where it was trapped by the tape. Long lines, looking like broom stick lines, do not make a floor look creative. Plus most of the floors were to be very dark colors (and were when first applied). Now they are all incredibly light due to all the blooms--thus not effective as thermal masses even if they looked OK (which they do not). My floors were supposed to look mottled--the creative, random pattern you refer to--but the blooms do not add to such a pattern. It is beyond a disaster. I have had numerous tile and concrete experts to view it already
> and without exception they state it's a disaster. It truly is. And that's without even mentioning the huge patches where everything has peeled up (and continues doing so...)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jason Holstine
> To: Greenbuilding Listserv
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 2:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
> Can you etch the concrete to remove the current sealer, strip the stain with paint stripper, let the concrete properly dry and cure, then go back and stain and refinish?
>
> Also - any concrete will naturally have a certain unpredictability in the finish pattern, with random burnishing and highs and lows of color. So I typically recommend take advantage of that, fly with it, and stain with a creative, random, very cool stain pattern. You won't know what's mistake/old mess-up and what's intentionally part of the pattern.
>
>
> On 7/27/11 2:29 PM, "Ktot (g)" <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I explained that in my initial email--less than half the required curing
> time for the concrete. Thus moisture is trapped under the sealer, creating
> white "blooms" everywhere. Also whole patches of stain and sealer are coming
> up which may be due to poor combination of products, use of diesel/propane
> heaters, other, or also the lack of cure time.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Corwyn" <corwyn at midcoast.com>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 1:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
>> On 7/27/2011 1:09 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>>> I have a brand new home (finished mid-May) that is completely off-grid.
>>> Solar and wind power, solar thermal radiant heat and hot water, and
>>> passive solar design.
>>>
>>> The problem--the stained concrete floors and countertops are defective.
>>> The countertops should be an easy fix--sanding and applying another
>>> layer of epoxy. But the floors are very problematic.
>>>
>>> First, the supposedly very experienced contractor who did them is
>>> refusing to take responsibility for their defective work--they didn't
>>> allow the concrete even 1/2 the curing time required--but my attorney is
>>> addressing that.
>>
>> What exactly is wrong with the floors?
>>
>> Thank You Kindly,
>>
>> Corwyn
>>
>>
>> --
>> Topher Belknap
>> Green Fret Consulting
>> Kermit didn't know the half of it...
>> http://www.greenfret.com/
>> topher at greenfret.com
>> (207) 882-7652
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/44f617ba/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:01:26 -0700
> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID:
> <CAE5fceA8moXNU9PzEuOgmPkpGKrdDCJ9=WiV_HVn+p6Ug3tSfg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I would not hire those folks again. Yikes.
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 2:56 PM, Ktot (g) <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Interesting. Mine was 11 days from pour to seal. Stain was applied just 2-3
>> days after pouring.
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/589507bf/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:05:58 -0500
> From: "Ktot \(g\)" <ktottotc at gmail.com>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <4B644C2E13DF4A638DEB908251A5888B at Barb27E1513D96>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floorsI have been told water-based stain--which was used to get the mottled creative pattern that was intended (without white blooms)--does not sink into the concrete like acid-stain does. Either way, where the stain and sealer have pulled up, there's plain white. It's chalky. Numerous concrete contractors had no idea what that was, telling me my contractor must have done a white layer of stain first, which I knew was not the case. One finally pointed out it's calcium carbonate that chemically reacted to something (the diesel/propane fuel? the exterior stain that was used indoors [as I later found out]?) That makes sense to me as one gets white on the finger when rubbing those areas. The white areas are all white--the stain has completely lifted up. So it does not seem to have gone down into the concrete--unless there is more under the calcium carbonate.
>
> Also I should have mentioned earlier much of the sealer seems to have disappeared. When put down it was very shiny (as it was supposed to remain) but now in many areas there appears to be little or no sealer (this is from work done two months ago), and one contractor commented the sealer is soft (vs. it supposedly the hardest, most durable there is per my contractor who clearly misled me in numerous ways).
>
> Per the sealer tech rep, the sealer does need to be removed whether I go with concrete again or with tile. He seems to lean towards grinding to remove it. Is that the same as the shot blast you mention?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Pace
> To: Green Building
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 2:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
> Jason...acid etching the concrete won't remove the sealer and paint stripper won't remove the stain. Acid etching only works when the acid has "access" to the free lime in the concrete. The sealer...seals it...so this isn't an option. The stain should be in the concrete and not on top of it, so stripping wont be effective. The only way to remove the sealer and stain would be to shot blast.
>
> Andrew Pace
> Green Design Center?
> Waukesha, WI
>
>
>
>
> On 7/27/11 2:36 PM, "Jason Holstine" <jason at amicusgreen.com> wrote:
>
>
> Can you etch the concrete to remove the current sealer, strip the stain with paint stripper, let the concrete properly dry and cure, then go back and stain and refinish?
>
> Also - any concrete will naturally have a certain unpredictability in the finish pattern, with random burnishing and highs and lows of color. So I typically recommend take advantage of that, fly with it, and stain with a creative, random, very cool stain pattern. You won't know what's mistake/old mess-up and what's intentionally part of the pattern.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/775af569/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:06:58 -0500
> From: "Ktot \(g\)" <ktottotc at gmail.com>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <9898D1FDD50A4439BDE80B973E090532 at Barb27E1513D96>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floorsWhat do you mean "if the concrete was messed up" please?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jason Holstine
> To: Greenbuilding Listserv
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 3:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
> Hi Andy,
>
> Tell that to my own concrete, when a customer decided to spill a gallon of paint, and we used our soy-based paint stripper and it tore right through the spilled paint, sealer, and soy-based stain so the concrete ended up looking bare. It doesn't have to be an acid etch to "etch" up the sealers. Ultimately, the success of the approach depends on the concrete and how deep these finishes/stains were allowed to get. If the concrete was messed up, they may well be sitting more on top than in it.
>
>
>
> On 7/27/11 3:49 PM, "Andrew Pace" <andy at safebuildingsolutions.com> wrote:
>
>
> Jason...acid etching the concrete won't remove the sealer and paint stripper won't remove the stain. Acid etching only works when the acid has "access" to the free lime in the concrete. The sealer...seals it...so this isn't an option. The stain should be in the concrete and not on top of it, so stripping wont be effective. The only way to remove the sealer and stain would be to shot blast.
>
> Andrew Pace
> Green Design Center?
> Waukesha, WI
>
>
>
>
> On 7/27/11 2:36 PM, "Jason Holstine" <jason at amicusgreen.com> wrote:
>
>
> Can you etch the concrete to remove the current sealer, strip the stain with paint stripper, let the concrete properly dry and cure, then go back and stain and refinish?
>
> Also - any concrete will naturally have a certain unpredictability in the finish pattern, with random burnishing and highs and lows of color. So I typically recommend take advantage of that, fly with it, and stain with a creative, random, very cool stain pattern. You won't know what's mistake/old mess-up and what's intentionally part of the pattern.
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/48bdfdb4/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:10:18 -0500
> From: "Ktot \(g\)" <ktottotc at gmail.com>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <0170C3BA8FCA425A88FCB3107C3AC1BC at Barb27E1513D96>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Now that is an understatement of the year--to me, at least! Believe me I'm warning everyone I know to avoid them. They apparently are very experienced, have done some huge successful projects for many years. However, they screwed up on my house. Things like that do sometimes happen, but when they do, I expect the contractor to take responsibility to fix the problems (as in fact they are required to do). Not this contractor. They (a husband/wife pair) got VERY nasty very quickly, threatening both me and my general contractor, and refusing to do anything unless I'd pay them more.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Reuben Deumling
> To: Green Building
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 5:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
> I would not hire those folks again. Yikes.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 2:56 PM, Ktot (g) <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Interesting. Mine was 11 days from pour to seal. Stain was applied just 2-3 days after pouring.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/63dc1f20/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:23:22 -0500
> From: Andrew Pace <andy at safebuildingsolutions.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <CA55FA0A.27D67%andy at safebuildingsolutions.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Non-acid stains like soy stains or polymer stains only sit on the surface
> and in some of the macro-pores of the concrete. Acid stain works by
> chemically reacting with the free lime in the concrete and the salts in the
> stain, to physically alter the chemistry of the concrete, thus changing the
> color. The white you see could be a white base stain, or, it could be that
> the concrete was never acid etched before using the sealer. Acid etching
> removes the ?cream? off the surface of the concrete. This is the fine white
> or grey powder that will eventually dust off the surface. Without removing
> the cream, any coating or topical stain will eventually peel off the
> surface, since its only sticking to dust.
>
> Grinding and shot blasting are two different ways to achieve the same end
> result. It its a large area, shot blasting will be more cost effective and
> will require less prep before the next coating is applied.
>
>
> Andrew Pace
> Green Design Center?
> Waukesha, WI
>
>
>
> On 7/27/11 5:05 PM, "Ktot (g)" <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I have been told water-based stain--which was used to get the mottled creative
>> pattern that was intended (without white blooms)--does not sink into the
>> concrete like acid-stain does. Either way, where the stain and sealer have
>> pulled up, there's plain white. It's chalky. Numerous concrete contractors had
>> no idea what that was, telling me my contractor must have done a white layer
>> of stain first, which I knew was not the case. One finally pointed out it's
>> calcium carbonate that chemically reacted to something (the diesel/propane
>> fuel? the exterior stain that was used indoors [as I later found out]?) That
>> makes sense to me as one gets white on the finger when rubbing those areas.
>> The white areas are all white--the stain has completely lifted up. So it does
>> not seem to have gone down into the concrete--unless there is more under the
>> calcium carbonate.
>>
>> Also I should have mentioned earlier much of the sealer seems to have
>> disappeared. When put down it was very shiny (as it was supposed to remain)
>> but now in many areas there appears to be little or no sealer (this is from
>> work done two months ago), and one contractor commented the sealer is soft
>> (vs. it supposedly the hardest, most durable there is per my contractor who
>> clearly misled me in numerous ways).
>>
>> Per the sealer tech rep, the sealer does need to be removed whether I go with
>> concrete again or with tile. He seems to lean towards grinding to remove it.
>> Is that the same as the shot blast you mention?
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/c96a6281/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:34:56 -0500
> From: "Ktot \(g\)" <ktottotc at gmail.com>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <9B0171AFF3E9470CBCCB86061072C48E at Barb27E1513D96>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floorsI can't imagine the dark stains that are peeling up are white based, but I'm no stain expert and (another problem) the contractor refuses to tell me the brand/name of stain used (other than it's water-based).
>
> What do you mean "the concrete was never acid etched before using the sealer"? I don't believe anything was done after staining before sealing other than waiting a few days. What is the etching that should have been done--how is it done, etc.? This could be useful in further documenting the problems (since ultimately the contractor IS going to be paying for my new floor, though probably not by their choice).
>
> Also can you explain more about shot blasting? You say it's more cost-effective, but how does it compare to grinding as far as time involved, how much it's going to totally mess up my house, etc.? No one's mentioned this yet but it sounds like something I should look into, especially since sealer removal will be required whether I go with more concrete staining or with tile (or something else I haven't yet considered). We're talking about 1500 sq. ft. in multiple rooms and hallways.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Pace
> To: Green Building
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 5:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
> Non-acid stains like soy stains or polymer stains only sit on the surface and in some of the macro-pores of the concrete. Acid stain works by chemically reacting with the free lime in the concrete and the salts in the stain, to physically alter the chemistry of the concrete, thus changing the color. The white you see could be a white base stain, or, it could be that the concrete was never acid etched before using the sealer. Acid etching removes the "cream" off the surface of the concrete. This is the fine white or grey powder that will eventually dust off the surface. Without removing the cream, any coating or topical stain will eventually peel off the surface, since its only sticking to dust.
>
> Grinding and shot blasting are two different ways to achieve the same end result. It its a large area, shot blasting will be more cost effective and will require less prep before the next coating is applied.
>
>
> Andrew Pace
> Green Design Center?
> Waukesha, WI
>
>
>
> On 7/27/11 5:05 PM, "Ktot (g)" <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have been told water-based stain--which was used to get the mottled creative pattern that was intended (without white blooms)--does not sink into the concrete like acid-stain does. Either way, where the stain and sealer have pulled up, there's plain white. It's chalky. Numerous concrete contractors had no idea what that was, telling me my contractor must have done a white layer of stain first, which I knew was not the case. One finally pointed out it's calcium carbonate that chemically reacted to something (the diesel/propane fuel? the exterior stain that was used indoors [as I later found out]?) That makes sense to me as one gets white on the finger when rubbing those areas. The white areas are all white--the stain has completely lifted up. So it does not seem to have gone down into the concrete--unless there is more under the calcium carbonate.
>
> Also I should have mentioned earlier much of the sealer seems to have disappeared. When put down it was very shiny (as it was supposed to remain) but now in many areas there appears to be little or no sealer (this is from work done two months ago), and one contractor commented the sealer is soft (vs. it supposedly the hardest, most durable there is per my contractor who clearly misled me in numerous ways).
>
> Per the sealer tech rep, the sealer does need to be removed whether I go with concrete again or with tile. He seems to lean towards grinding to remove it. Is that the same as the shot blast you mention?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/8f00bef9/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:49:24 -0500
> From: Andrew Pace <andy at safebuildingsolutions.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <CA560024.27D6E%andy at safebuildingsolutions.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Maybe I missed something, but you said ?where the stain and sealer have
> pulled up, there's plain white.?
>
> Regarding etching... I was thinking that the concrete had a sealer on it
> before you stained and coated it. I misinterpreted your comments. Between
> the stain and the topcoat, usually nothing gets done to the surface, except
> maybe a rinsing with water. But, that would depend on what stain they used.
> They should provide you with a tech data or MSDS for the products they used
> upon your request.
>
> Contact a local surface preparation company to determine if shot blasting
> will work in your particular situation. Shot blasting (or even water
> blasting) would be less dusty, but the equipment may not fit in the
> hallways. Grinding is typically done for smaller, more confined areas and
> requires more physical labor to accomplish. In any event, it wont be a
> picnic.
>
> Andrew Pace
> Green Design Center?
> Waukesha, WI
>
> On 7/27/11 5:34 PM, "Ktot (g)" <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I can't imagine the dark stains that are peeling up are white based, but I'm
>> no stain expert and (another problem) the contractor refuses to tell me the
>> brand/name of stain used (other than it's water-based).
>>
>> What do you mean "the concrete was never acid etched before using the sealer"?
>> I don't believe anything was done after staining before sealing other than
>> waiting a few days. What is the etching that should have been done--how is it
>> done, etc.? This could be useful in further documenting the problems (since
>> ultimately the contractor IS going to be paying for my new floor, though
>> probably not by their choice).
>>
>> Also can you explain more about shot blasting? You say it's more
>> cost-effective, but how does it compare to grinding as far as time involved,
>> how much it's going to totally mess up my house, etc.? No one's mentioned this
>> yet but it sounds like something I should look into, especially since sealer
>> removal will be required whether I go with more concrete staining or with tile
>> (or something else I haven't yet considered). We're talking about 1500 sq. ft.
>> in multiple rooms and hallways.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>
>>> From: Andrew Pace <mailto:andy at safebuildingsolutions.com>
>>>
>>> To: Green Building <mailto:greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 5:23 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>>>
>>>
>>> Non-acid stains like soy stains or polymer stains only sit on the surface
>>> and in some of the macro-pores of the concrete. Acid stain works by
>>> chemically reacting with the free lime in the concrete and the salts in the
>>> stain, to physically alter the chemistry of the concrete, thus changing the
>>> color. The white you see could be a white base stain, or, it could be that
>>> the concrete was never acid etched before using the sealer. Acid etching
>>> removes the ?cream? off the surface of the concrete. This is the fine white
>>> or grey powder that will eventually dust off the surface. Without removing
>>> the cream, any coating or topical stain will eventually peel off the
>>> surface, since its only sticking to dust.
>>>
>>> Grinding and shot blasting are two different ways to achieve the same end
>>> result. It its a large area, shot blasting will be more cost effective and
>>> will require less prep before the next coating is applied.
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew Pace
>>> Green Design Center?
>>> Waukesha, WI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/27/11 5:05 PM, "Ktot (g)" <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have been told water-based stain--which was used to get the mottled
>>>> creative pattern that was intended (without white blooms)--does not sink
>>>> into the concrete like acid-stain does. Either way, where the stain and
>>>> sealer have pulled up, there's plain white. It's chalky. Numerous concrete
>>>> contractors had no idea what that was, telling me my contractor must have
>>>> done a white layer of stain first, which I knew was not the case. One
>>>> finally pointed out it's calcium carbonate that chemically reacted to
>>>> something (the diesel/propane fuel? the exterior stain that was used
>>>> indoors [as I later found out]?) That makes sense to me as one gets white
>>>> on the finger when rubbing those areas. The white areas are all white--the
>>>> stain has completely lifted up. So it does not seem to have gone down into
>>>> the concrete--unless there is more under the calcium carbonate.
>>>>
>>>> Also I should have mentioned earlier much of the sealer seems to have
>>>> disappeared. When put down it was very shiny (as it was supposed to remain)
>>>> but now in many areas there appears to be little or no sealer (this is from
>>>> work done two months ago), and one contractor commented the sealer is soft
>>>> (vs. it supposedly the hardest, most durable there is per my contractor who
>>>> clearly misled me in numerous ways).
>>>>
>>>> Per the sealer tech rep, the sealer does need to be removed whether I go
>>>> with concrete again or with tile. He seems to lean towards grinding to
>>>> remove it. Is that the same as the shot blast you mention?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenerg
>>> ylists.org
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergy
>> lists.org
>
>
> Safe Building Solutions
> Healthy - Sustainable - Smart
>
> PLEASE NOTE OUR NEW ADDRESS AND PHONE NUMBER:
>
> 2201 Badger Ct
> Waukesha, WI 53188
> 262.446-6702
>
> http://www.thegreendesigncenter.com
> Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/greendzyncenter
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/d31a4c00/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:04:23 -0400
> From: Bob Klahn <Home-NRG at dnaco.net>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <4E309977.1080609 at dnaco.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> On 7/27/2011 6:34 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>> Also can you explain more about shot blasting? You say it's more
>> cost-effective, but how does it compare to grinding as far as time
>> involved, how much it's going to totally mess up my house, etc.?
>
> I don't deal with concrete much, but I do know that a variation of
> shot-blasting, using small beads of frozen CO2 works wonders in other
> kinds of abrasive cleaning. Much the same as standard shot blasting,
> albeit somewhat less abrasive, it has the advantage of thermal abrasion
> and the pellets evaporate, reducing clean up.
>
> I can't say that it's applicable on concrete, but I'd be surprised if ti
> didn't have some application.
>
> Bob Klahn
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/718c0711/attachment-0001.html>
> -------------- next part --------------
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: Home-NRG.vcf
> Type: text/x-vcard
> Size: 400 bytes
> Desc: not available
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/718c0711/attachment-0001.vcf>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 16:23:21 -0700
> From: Steve Houlihan <sho11 at comcast.net>
> To: greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <4E309DE9.4020904 at comcast.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> I have build many tile countertops in my career. I have built mortar
> beds, used Durock, Hardibacker and Wonderboard and set tile directly on
> plywood. without exception every tile install I did over plywood
> failed! I very strongly discourage this idea! Eventually the grout
> cracks and water gets down into the plywood and it swells and destroys
> the countertop.
>
> In the beginning you said you wanted to do tile and that will still be
> the easiest and cheapest. If you stay away from the very hard porcelain
> or vitrified tiles you should have no problem cutting tiles with a snap
> cutter or a carborundum grit blade in a jig saw.
>
> My preference for tile counters is to put down a layer of 1/2 inch
> Hardibacker Board using lots of screws and a layer of thin-set then set
> the tiles on top of this again using thinset. This makes a very strong
> and long lasting countertop. I have set tile directly on good sheetrock
> walls for a backsplash and this works well as long as the house doesn't
> move too much. Some re-caulking at the junction of the backsplash and
> countertop may be needed. I have also used 1/4 inch backerboard on
> backsplashes. Then you can use thinset and fiberglass mesh tape at the
> joint but you have to deal with the 1/4 inch edge at the top.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> On 7/27/11 6:12 AM, JOHN SALMEN wrote:
>> Depends what you mean about warpage. I've even had concrete counters warp
>> (deflect, bend, twist) - most materials move so it is a question of gluing,
>> screwing, nailing, supporting, blocking and sealing to provide support and
>> resist movement. Basic exterior 3/4" ply is pretty resistant to moisture and
>> moisture damage (can be wetted and dried numerous times without damage).
>> Before cement boards became common 1/2" exterior ply was the standard backer
>> for tile walls on premium projects. I would recommend stick with the ply and
>> tile plan and provide whatever additional support is needed underneath to
>> support the spans and make the material rigid. A thin layer of cement board
>> is excellent to use under the tile and is better around sink areas as a
>> substrate - bond it to the ply with tile mortar and screws (lap any seams in
>> the ply).
>>
>> I also recommend butcher block counters. Surprisingly inexpensive natural
>> material that you can purchase by the foot, refinish numerous times by
>> sanding and oiling and takes on character as it gets burned and stained and
>> well used.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Lynelle
>> Hamilton
>> Sent: July-26-11 6:29 PM
>> To: Green Building
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
>>
>> The warping is noticeable, so I'm already replacing the ply. I'd have to
>> figure out how to keep any new ply from warping, though. What's the heat
>> resistance, do you know? Bamboo would be great for the edge.
>> Thanks, Jason!
>>
>> Lynelle
>>
>> On 26/07/2011 9:20 PM, Jason Holstine wrote:
>>> How about Marmoleum sheet on that plywood (or, if it's warped, replace
>>> the plywood for about 15 cents). Ol' fashioned, all-natural, easy to
>>> clean, durable linoleum. Just glue it up on the ply. Material should
>>> should be about $7/sf and if you're reasonably astute, could be DIY.
>>> Biggest issue is your front edge-you'll probably want a different
>>> material for the edge band, like a bamboo, wood, or metal.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/26/11 9:00 PM, "Lynelle Hamilton"<lynelle at lahamilton.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Again, I ask the list for advice. I am now at the point of installing
>>> kitchen counters. I have had plywood on the counters (3/4 overlaid
>>> and
>>> screwed to 3/8", as a substrate for tile, but have had warping
>>> (I'm on
>>> the water). I don't trust it for tile. I've been told others in
>>> the area
>>> have had this problem. They've generally solved it by installing
>>> Arborite, something I am loathe to do.
>>>
>>> That places me squarely in a quandary. I can't find reclaimed granite
>>> in the size I need--the reclamation folks near me generally sell the
>>> counters with the cabinets anyway. The budget will not allow for
>>> "new"
>>> granite and I want to use something that screws the earth less than
>>> other options (particularly given that I've already wasted some
>>> otherwise good plywood).
>>>
>>> I am the installer, so it must be pretty simple.
>>>
>>> Any creative ideas out there?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Lynelle
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
>> gylists.org
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/9bf79c70/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 16:51:45 -0700
> From: "JOHN SALMEN" <terrain at shaw.ca>
> To: "'Green Building'" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <00c301cc4cb8$24d5b320$6e811960$@ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I would agree as my experience is the same and should have mentioned that
> when ply was used (prior to cemboard being around) a membrane was adhered to
> allow for both waterproofing and movement. I mentioned as well for the
> counter to use a thin layer of cemboard adhered and screwed and should have
> said that you have to use that and still pay attention to the moisture
> details and thinset and grout contents.
>
>
>
> After all these years I still think tile is one of the best countertop
> materials. It is perfectly suited to the use and abuse. Only the grout
> lines need sealing and they can be minimal. Stone needs sealing and erodes
> and stains. All the composites look like shit after a day or two of normal
> usage (sure they can be resurface but it is like having to refinish the
> gelcoat on a boat once a year so it looks good for a day or two). Concrete
> can't take ANY acidity - pits and corrodes like crazy. Old concrete and
> stone unsealed and left to get dull and gritty look good to me but not to
> most people.
>
>
>
> Unlike Allan I have seen maple butcher block (not end grain - that is
> reserved for kitchens) survive. My only reservation is places like Ikea
> produce it and I would have to do my Ikea rant to cover that one.
>
>
>
> Best
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Steve
> Houlihan
> Sent: July-27-11 4:23 PM
> To: greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
>
>
>
> I have build many tile countertops in my career. I have built mortar beds,
> used Durock, Hardibacker and Wonderboard and set tile directly on plywood.
> without exception every tile install I did over plywood failed! I very
> strongly discourage this idea! Eventually the grout cracks and water gets
> down into the plywood and it swells and destroys the countertop.
>
> In the beginning you said you wanted to do tile and that will still be the
> easiest and cheapest. If you stay away from the very hard porcelain or
> vitrified tiles you should have no problem cutting tiles with a snap cutter
> or a carborundum grit blade in a jig saw.
>
> My preference for tile counters is to put down a layer of 1/2 inch
> Hardibacker Board using lots of screws and a layer of thin-set then set the
> tiles on top of this again using thinset. This makes a very strong and long
> lasting countertop. I have set tile directly on good sheetrock walls for a
> backsplash and this works well as long as the house doesn't move too much.
> Some re-caulking at the junction of the backsplash and countertop may be
> needed. I have also used 1/4 inch backerboard on backsplashes. Then you
> can use thinset and fiberglass mesh tape at the joint but you have to deal
> with the 1/4 inch edge at the top.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> On 7/27/11 6:12 AM, JOHN SALMEN wrote:
>
> Depends what you mean about warpage. I've even had concrete counters warp
> (deflect, bend, twist) - most materials move so it is a question of gluing,
> screwing, nailing, supporting, blocking and sealing to provide support and
> resist movement. Basic exterior 3/4" ply is pretty resistant to moisture and
> moisture damage (can be wetted and dried numerous times without damage).
> Before cement boards became common 1/2" exterior ply was the standard backer
> for tile walls on premium projects. I would recommend stick with the ply and
> tile plan and provide whatever additional support is needed underneath to
> support the spans and make the material rigid. A thin layer of cement board
> is excellent to use under the tile and is better around sink areas as a
> substrate - bond it to the ply with tile mortar and screws (lap any seams in
> the ply).
>
> I also recommend butcher block counters. Surprisingly inexpensive natural
> material that you can purchase by the foot, refinish numerous times by
> sanding and oiling and takes on character as it gets burned and stained and
> well used.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Lynelle
> Hamilton
> Sent: July-26-11 6:29 PM
> To: Green Building
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
>
> The warping is noticeable, so I'm already replacing the ply. I'd have to
> figure out how to keep any new ply from warping, though. What's the heat
> resistance, do you know? Bamboo would be great for the edge.
> Thanks, Jason!
>
> Lynelle
>
> On 26/07/2011 9:20 PM, Jason Holstine wrote:
>
> How about Marmoleum sheet on that plywood (or, if it's warped, replace
> the plywood for about 15 cents). Ol' fashioned, all-natural, easy to
> clean, durable linoleum. Just glue it up on the ply. Material should
> should be about $7/sf and if you're reasonably astute, could be DIY.
> Biggest issue is your front edge-you'll probably want a different
> material for the edge band, like a bamboo, wood, or metal.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/26/11 9:00 PM, "Lynelle Hamilton" <mailto:lynelle at lahamilton.com>
> <lynelle at lahamilton.com> wrote:
>
> Again, I ask the list for advice. I am now at the point of installing
> kitchen counters. I have had plywood on the counters (3/4 overlaid
> and
> screwed to 3/8", as a substrate for tile, but have had warping
> (I'm on
> the water). I don't trust it for tile. I've been told others in
> the area
> have had this problem. They've generally solved it by installing
> Arborite, something I am loathe to do.
>
> That places me squarely in a quandary. I can't find reclaimed granite
> in the size I need--the reclamation folks near me generally sell the
> counters with the cabinets anyway. The budget will not allow for
> "new"
> granite and I want to use something that screws the earth less than
> other options (particularly given that I've already wasted some
> otherwise good plywood).
>
> I am the installer, so it must be pretty simple.
>
> Any creative ideas out there?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Lynelle
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
> gylists.org
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/b2c29c39/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:20:35 +1000
> From: "Nick Pyner" <npyner at tig.com.au>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <FHEBJOMKELIMNOKHLJJKAEACCGAA.npyner at tig.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org]On
> Behalf Of Ktot(g)
>
>> I have a brand new home (finished mid-May)
>> concrete (which has been cracking due to the
> house settling)
>
> ____________________________
>
> It seems that is what your real problem is. All this talk of stains and
> tiles is just cosmetic.
>
>
>
> Nick Pyner
>
> Dee Why NSW
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3792 - Release Date: 07/27/11
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 19:50:12 -0500
> From: Bobbi Chukran <bobbi at bobbichukran.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <E18486EA-BCBD-4742-90A1-3EC85B92BA4D at bobbichukran.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes;
> format=flowed
>
> Thanks for the info., Jason. Well, that's out then.
>
> We can probably do our own wooden countertops. I just wanted
> something a little more contemporary looking this time around.
> Still, you gotta love those almost maintenance-free natural materials.
>
> If I could get LOCAL granite tiles, I might use it. They mine a lot
> of granite around here, but it's shipped elsewhere and sold.
> Meanwhile, the granite sold here comes from overseas. How crazy is
> that.
>
> bobbi c.
>
> On Jul 27, 2011, at 1:28 PM, Jason Holstine wrote:
>
>> ECO is made in Spain.
>>
>> There has to be a local supplier of wood butcher blocks?maybe even
>> locally sources--that?s not a chain near you (everyone)?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 20:04:08 -0500
> From: Bobbi Chukran <bobbi at bobbichukran.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <CEE55221-7FBF-464D-9926-B09F0AF5B73D at bobbichukran.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> OK, what I'm calling "butcherblock" isn't end grain wood. It's
> strips of wood glued up to make a long slab. Everybody seems to call
> that butcherblock--that's what the lumber yards call it, and the
> generic term has become fairly common, so that's what I call it.
> Yeah, I know it's not the same as the real butcher blocks.
>
> I can clean my wooden countertops much easier than I ever could tile
> or other surfaces.
>
> For anyone who wants to know, this is the stuff we have on our
> current kitchen counters:
>
> http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20057397
>
> It also comes in beech and birch.
>
> FWIW,
>
> bobbi c.
>
>
> On Jul 27, 2011, at 1:14 PM, Corwyn wrote:
>> That said, I wouldn't make a counter out of it. Check out the iron
>> strapping that holds together traditional butcher blocks. As a
>> counter top it can't be brought somewhere to be well cleaned, or
>> resurfaced. It will be thicker than it needs to be for most uses.
>> It will acquire that quaint shape, which will make rolling out pie
>> crust on it impossible.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:12:17 -0700
> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID:
> <CAE5fceBr7XoYNTPnm_ZfbeJJ8xo4xLajaBgeuVv-h+t8eSWCiA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I too have observed this trend. But it is really too bad when 'everybody' is
> so sloppy in their usage. The countertop you show is neither a 'block' in
> terms of the whole thing, nor in terms of the components which--in the case
> of butcherblock--could be considered blocks given their aspect ratio.
> Some people have suggested to me that this usage originated with a marketing
> ploy, that 'wood countertop' isn't fancy enough.
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Bobbi Chukran <bobbi at bobbichukran.com>wrote:
>
>> OK, what I'm calling "butcherblock" isn't end grain wood. It's strips of
>> wood glued up to make a long slab. Everybody seems to call that
>> butcherblock--that's what the lumber yards call it, and the generic term has
>> become fairly common, so that's what I call it. Yeah, I know it's not the
>> same as the real butcher blocks.
>>
>> I can clean my wooden countertops much easier than I ever could tile or
>> other surfaces.
>>
>> For anyone who wants to know, this is the stuff we have on our current
>> kitchen counters:
>>
>> http://www.ikea.com/us/en/**catalog/products/20057397<http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20057397>
>>
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/65a915f7/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 20:16:45 -0500
> From: Bobbi Chukran <bobbi at bobbichukran.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <AD843CBA-2FEC-4DF3-8845-61A904BA6592 at bobbichukran.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Actually, it is a block. It's a huge, very heavy block of wood made
> from many smaller oak pieces glued together and sanded. Ask my
> husband, who broke three saw blades installing ours. LOL.
>
> You're probably right about the marketing ploy, though. Makes sense.
>
> bobbi c.
>
> On Jul 27, 2011, at 8:12 PM, Reuben Deumling wrote:
>
>> I too have observed this trend. But it is really too bad when
>> 'everybody' is so sloppy in their usage. The countertop you show is
>> neither a 'block' in terms of the whole thing, nor in terms of the
>> components which--in the case of butcherblock--could be considered
>> blocks given their aspect ratio.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 20:24:41 -0500
> From: Bobbi Chukran <bobbi at bobbichukran.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <B7D49A55-9F8F-4F81-8E02-50B322496591 at bobbichukran.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> OK, so maybe it's not a true block. It's more like a slab. But that
> wouldn't sound very good for marketing either. LOL
>
> bobbi c.
>
> On Jul 27, 2011, at 8:12 PM, Reuben Deumling wrote:
>
>> I too have observed this trend. But it is really too bad when
>> 'everybody' is so sloppy in their usage. The countertop you show is
>> neither a 'block' in terms of the whole thing,
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:34:00 -0700
> From: "JOHN SALMEN" <terrain at shaw.ca>
> To: "'Green Building'" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <00d901cc4cc6$6cff5490$46fdfdb0$@ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Butcherblock counters has long referred to vertical grain (typically maple)
> hardwood in 1-1.5" laminated strips to form varying widths. The term
> 'block' is a reference to a 'cutting block' and historically does reference
> a 'block' of wood but that is about as far as it goes. Historically butcher
> blocks in trade usage were end grain things but small tall things (to allow
> for the pounding) generally about 30x30 square and pretty tall - codes don't
> really allow them anymore.
>
>
>
> In terms of durability yes end grain is durable. I remember the butcher I
> used in Hoboken had a 2' depth end grain block that had already gone through
> a few generations use and for pounding a cutlet was built like an anvil. In
> terms of a kitchen counter usage vert grain maple is pretty decent and
> provides the strength in the direction needed. An end grain counter would
> have to be a pretty deep counter.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Reuben
> Deumling
> Sent: July-27-11 6:12 PM
> To: Green Building
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
>
>
>
> I too have observed this trend. But it is really too bad when 'everybody' is
> so sloppy in their usage. The countertop you show is neither a 'block' in
> terms of the whole thing, nor in terms of the components which--in the case
> of butcherblock--could be considered blocks given their aspect ratio.
> Some people have suggested to me that this usage originated with a marketing
> ploy, that 'wood countertop' isn't fancy enough.
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Bobbi Chukran <bobbi at bobbichukran.com>
> wrote:
>
> OK, what I'm calling "butcherblock" isn't end grain wood. It's strips of
> wood glued up to make a long slab. Everybody seems to call that
> butcherblock--that's what the lumber yards call it, and the generic term has
> become fairly common, so that's what I call it. Yeah, I know it's not the
> same as the real butcher blocks.
>
> I can clean my wooden countertops much easier than I ever could tile or
> other surfaces.
>
> For anyone who wants to know, this is the stuff we have on our current
> kitchen counters:
>
> http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20057397
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/6e6f76c9/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 25
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:40:07 -0400
> From: Lynelle Hamilton <lynelle at lahamilton.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <4E30BDF7.5020304 at lahamilton.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> A few observations. I also have concrete as my finished floor. They
> were not without problems in finishing, and I had a guy who was
> honourable and experienced with all aspects except mechanical polishing
> (at which he was new).
>
> First, there is a white undercoat that can be used here as a base coat
> over concrete to make for a lighter overall colour. This type of
> finish has a coat of colour applied over it and then a sealer. The white
> undercoat is optional. My first set of concrete floors (in my last
> house) were finished without the white, but with the stain and sealer,
> then burnished. We had to wait a minimum of 30 days to apply the stain
> , and that was in August. I certainly had colour variation (looked like
> an old leather bomber jacket), but no white whatsoever and no lifting of
> any stain or finish.
>
> In my current house, I opted for grinding/stain/sealer/mechanical
> polishing. It yields an entirely different finish--sort of like the old
> granite stairs in my high school (not exactly a positive memory, but I
> got over it). We had problems with the finish taking, even though we
> did the grinding and stain 3 months after the pour. We had to grind the
> floors twice--once before the first stain and then again to take it
> off, The second stain looked beautiful but was ruined by an overzealous
> burnishing (by the grinding machine company rep!). We then followed
> what Jason suggested...stripped chemically and reapplied the stain and
> sealer. The results are beautiful. I had some minor fissures, but we
> filled these and they are not noticeable. The grinding created a
> horrible mess here, but I did get through it and (now) would say it was
> worth the hassle.
>
> I'd do what you need to do to get rid of the current finish and start
> again.I wouldn't cover it with anything....you'll pay more and
> ultimately lose mass with anything but tile. If you're like me, the look
> of tile wouldn't cut it either.
>
> My 2 cents' worth (2.12 cents' worth American these days! ;-) )
>
> Lynelle
>
> On 27/07/2011 7:04 PM, Bob Klahn wrote:
>> On 7/27/2011 6:34 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>>> Also can you explain more about shot blasting? You say it's more
>>> cost-effective, but how does it compare to grinding as far as time
>>> involved, how much it's going to totally mess up my house, etc.?
>>
>> I don't deal with concrete much, but I do know that a variation of
>> shot-blasting, using small beads of frozen CO2 works wonders in other
>> kinds of abrasive cleaning. Much the same as standard shot blasting,
>> albeit somewhat less abrasive, it has the advantage of thermal
>> abrasion and the pellets evaporate, reducing clean up.
>>
>> I can't say that it's applicable on concrete, but I'd be surprised if
>> ti didn't have some application.
>>
>> Bob Klahn
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> --
> Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to reach
> me: lynelle at lahamilton.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 26
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:42:20 -0400
> From: Lynelle Hamilton <lynelle at lahamilton.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <4E30BE7C.9090602 at lahamilton.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I made a desktop out of it. Almost as hard as my concrete floors. I
> can relate to "Saw abuse"
>
> Lynelle
>
> On 27/07/2011 9:24 PM, Bobbi Chukran wrote:
>> OK, so maybe it's not a true block. It's more like a slab. But that
>> wouldn't sound very good for marketing either. LOL
>>
>> bobbi c.
>>
>> On Jul 27, 2011, at 8:12 PM, Reuben Deumling wrote:
>>
>>> I too have observed this trend. But it is really too bad when
>>> 'everybody' is so sloppy in their usage. The countertop you show is
>>> neither a 'block' in terms of the whole thing,
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>
> --
> Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to reach
> me: lynelle at lahamilton.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 27
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:45:42 -0400
> From: Bob Klahn <Home-NRG at dnaco.net>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <4E30BF46.7000109 at dnaco.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> To my eye, the grain of that Ikea "oak" countertop illustration doesn't
> resemble any oak I know - but does look a lot like one of the rainforest
> species that is marketed as "oak". Probably a double negative option,
> but I won't rant either.
>
>
> On 7/27/2011 9:12 PM, Reuben Deumling wrote:
>> I too have observed this trend. But it is really too bad when
>> 'everybody' is so sloppy in their usage. The countertop you show is
>> neither a 'block' in terms of the whole thing, nor in terms of the
>> components which--in the case of butcherblock--could be considered
>> blocks given their aspect ratio.
>> Some people have suggested to me that this usage originated with a
>> marketing ploy, that 'wood countertop' isn't fancy enough.
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Bobbi Chukran <bobbi at bobbichukran.com
>> <mailto:bobbi at bobbichukran.com>> wrote:
>>
>> OK, what I'm calling "butcherblock" isn't end grain wood. It's
>> strips of wood glued up to make a long slab. Everybody seems to
>> call that butcherblock--that's what the lumber yards call it, and
>> the generic term has become fairly common, so that's what I call
>> it. Yeah, I know it's not the same as the real butcher blocks.
>>
>> I can clean my wooden countertops much easier than I ever could
>> tile or other surfaces.
>>
>> For anyone who wants to know, this is the stuff we have on our
>> current kitchen counters:
>>
>> http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/20057397
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/b931c970/attachment-0001.html>
> -------------- next part --------------
> A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
> Name: Home-NRG.vcf
> Type: text/x-vcard
> Size: 400 bytes
> Desc: not available
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/b931c970/attachment-0001.vcf>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 28
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:41:53 -0700
> From: "JOHN SALMEN" <terrain at shaw.ca>
> To: "'Green Building'" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <00de01cc4cc7$875cf1c0$9616d540$@ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Those studies came out of a Midwest agricultural college in the late 70's.
> They hit the news and got a good sound bite but every attempt since to
> reproduce the study has failed. I spent a bit of time tracking it down as a
> proponent of 'natural materials and properties' but it simply was not true.
> Salmonella retreated a little further into the wood and then came back.
>
> I still feel on an anecdotal level that wood has good properties but I
> cannot say that it is anti-septic.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Corwyn
> Sent: July-27-11 11:14 AM
> To: Green Building
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
>
> On 7/27/2011 12:35 PM, natural building wrote:
>> And traditional 'Butcher blocks' were made from Beech because it is so
>> solid and stable...
>
> Around here it is usually maple. Studies on edge grain maple show that
> it is one of the most anti-septic surfaces you can use.
>
> That said, I wouldn't make a counter out of it. Check out the iron
> strapping that holds together traditional butcher blocks. As a counter
> top it can't be brought somewhere to be well cleaned, or resurfaced. It
> will be thicker than it needs to be for most uses. It will acquire that
> quaint shape, which will make rolling out pie crust on it impossible.
>
>
> --
> Topher Belknap
> Green Fret Consulting
> Kermit didn't know the half of it...
> http://www.greenfret.com/
> topher at greenfret.com
> (207) 882-7652
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
> gylists.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 29
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:48:58 -0400
> From: Lynelle Hamilton <lynelle at lahamilton.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <4E30C00A.1060500 at lahamilton.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 27/07/2011 9:34 PM, JOHN SALMEN wrote:
>
> "An end grain counter would have to be a pretty deep counter."
>
> Would look way cool, though....
>
> Lynelle
> --
> Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to reach
> me: lynelle at lahamilton.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 30
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:47:52 -0700
> From: "JOHN SALMEN" <terrain at shaw.ca>
> To: "'Green Building'" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <00eb01cc4cc8$5d1e78b0$175b6a10$@ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I would agree though I think diamond grinding would be the best surface
> finish result and even that...
>
> It is a shame. I've seen very few really good floors and even in the most
> high end projects and I have heard of a lot of disappointment. Typically
> most have imperfection upon imperfection. Badly placed control joints
> (cracking) + badly polished areas + badly finished areas + badly sealed
> floors which over time without further sealing can make everything even
> worse.
>
>
>
> I think the problem is that a design may seem to require a slab so the
> concept is finishing the slab as a finished floor. That seems fair enough
> but then you start mixing structural with finish and the complexity builds
> as you are mixing trades and experience. When I used it the purpose was to
> create a floor structure and finished floor in one go. Metal or tile inlays
> were used to create control joints and visual keys (things you look at
> rather than the rest of the floor). We have had some pretty nice results
> but the work involved to create I felt could be done better with less
> material or cost so I stopped using slabs. Even for on grade construction I
> don't think they are needed or desirable. You can get better results
> treating the floor finish as finish - small mortar slabs if you want the
> concrete look or whatever floor finish might work but isolate it from the
> insulation and support base.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Andrew
> Pace
> Sent: July-27-11 12:50 PM
> To: Green Building
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
>
> Jason...acid etching the concrete won't remove the sealer and paint stripper
> won't remove the stain. Acid etching only works when the acid has "access"
> to the free lime in the concrete. The sealer...seals it...so this isn't an
> option. The stain should be in the concrete and not on top of it, so
> stripping wont be effective. The only way to remove the sealer and stain
> would be to shot blast.
>
> Andrew Pace
> Green Design CenterR
> Waukesha, WI
>
>
>
>
> On 7/27/11 2:36 PM, "Jason Holstine" <jason at amicusgreen.com> wrote:
>
> Can you etch the concrete to remove the current sealer, strip the stain with
> paint stripper, let the concrete properly dry and cure, then go back and
> stain and refinish?
>
> Also - any concrete will naturally have a certain unpredictability in the
> finish pattern, with random burnishing and highs and lows of color. So I
> typically recommend take advantage of that, fly with it, and stain with a
> creative, random, very cool stain pattern. You won't know what's mistake/old
> mess-up and what's intentionally part of the pattern.
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/197ce45a/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 31
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 18:49:54 -0700
> From: "JOHN SALMEN" <terrain at shaw.ca>
> To: "'Green Building'" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <00f001cc4cc8$a5d48400$f17d8c00$@ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I had a friend that made a floor of all the 2x framing offcuts - 4" depth
> and end grain up - and yes it looked pretty nice
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Lynelle
> Hamilton
> Sent: July-27-11 6:49 PM
> To: Green Building
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
>
> On 27/07/2011 9:34 PM, JOHN SALMEN wrote:
>
> "An end grain counter would have to be a pretty deep counter."
>
> Would look way cool, though....
>
> Lynelle
> --
> Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to reach
> me: lynelle at lahamilton.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
> gylists.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 32
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 22:13:21 -0500
> From: Bobbi Chukran <bobbi at bobbichukran.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <BA757CBD-AA50-42F2-A804-F6EC8951C71F at bobbichukran.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Yes! Great idea to use it for a desk, too. Thanks for the idea. I
> need a new desk. :-) Husband probably wouldn't approve, though. LOL.
>
> You should have seen us trying to make that oak stuff fit around a
> slanty counter. We did it, but not without a lot of aggravation.
>
> bobbi c.
>
> On Jul 27, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Lynelle Hamilton wrote:
>
>> I made a desktop out of it. Almost as hard as my concrete floors.
>> I can relate to "Saw abuse"
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 33
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 22:32:09 -0500
> From: "Ktot \(g\)" <ktottotc at gmail.com>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <498E282447C745D29399B5EC85B95F9C at Barb27E1513D96>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> I'm not real clear what you're suggesting when you say you wouldn't cover it
> with anything. You mean not anything but concrete stain or grinding? Or you
> only recommend grinding?
>
> I have a contractor coming out next week with a grinding/polishing company
> rep, as apparently the technique the contractor is familiar with won't work
> in my house (he believes) but the rep says there's a new technique that may
> work in my house. That said, I cannot go through all the hassles and time
> your floors apparently took. I built this new house after a total fire loss
> when I was out of state for several weeks last year. The stress of moving to
> a new part of my property (for better sun and wind, and more), getting not
> just a new house built but also a new access road, well, septic, solar/wind,
> etc., and undergoing a winter build in a very cold climate in the mountains
> was more stress than I ever want to go through again. I could not handle
> having to move out for several months, redoing the floor several more times,
> etc.--as it sounds like might be required with the grinding/polishing
> technique. As I mentioned in my original post, I need flooring that 1)
> provides thermal mass, 2) is durable, 3) works with radiant heat, 4) is easy
> to maintain, 5) will be relatively easy to put in over the defective
> concrete, 6) fits in with the contemporary/nature style of my house. (I
> realize this list doesn't exactly match what I put in the first email.) So
> far only porcelain or natural stone tile seems to fit the bill, but if
> anyone has any other suggestions, please let me know. (I'm turning away from
> natural stone as it apparently scratches and I have dogs, plus much of it is
> irregular so may be hard to keep clean.)
>
> Also one additional thought: the master bedroom and bathroom don't need
> thermal mass as they're on the north and west sides of the house with
> minimal windows, so if anyone can recommend something that would look good
> with tile elsewhere (if I go that route) and meet requirements 2-6 above,
> let me know that as well. I've been thinking of keeping everything the same
> material, but that probably isn't really necessary.
>
> Or am I misunderstanding your comments, Lynelle?
>
> Regardless, I've seen a lot of porcelain tile patterns (in large squares,
> not just 12x12) that look great on floors. And after my concrete fiasco I
> tend to like the idea of knowing what I'll be getting--though some of the
> tiles do come with tremendous variety in their tiles.
>
> One other problem with concrete is finding a good contractor. I've met with
> many, many and really am not impressed with most who are interested in my
> job (a few live a couple or more hours away and don't want to come this
> far)--for various reasons. In contrast, the tile people seem to really know
> what they're doing. Or maybe I'm just too skittish after the concrete
> fiasco. I had really trusted the couple I went with, in part due to her
> creative/artistic bent. I haven't found similar creativity/artistry in any
> of the other concrete people.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lynelle Hamilton" <lynelle at lahamilton.com>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
>> A few observations. I also have concrete as my finished floor. They were
>> not without problems in finishing, and I had a guy who was honourable and
>> experienced with all aspects except mechanical polishing (at which he was
>> new).
>>
>> First, there is a white undercoat that can be used here as a base coat
>> over concrete to make for a lighter overall colour. This type of finish
>> has a coat of colour applied over it and then a sealer. The white
>> undercoat is optional. My first set of concrete floors (in my last house)
>> were finished without the white, but with the stain and sealer, then
>> burnished. We had to wait a minimum of 30 days to apply the stain , and
>> that was in August. I certainly had colour variation (looked like an old
>> leather bomber jacket), but no white whatsoever and no lifting of any
>> stain or finish.
>>
>> In my current house, I opted for grinding/stain/sealer/mechanical
>> polishing. It yields an entirely different finish--sort of like the old
>> granite stairs in my high school (not exactly a positive memory, but I got
>> over it). We had problems with the finish taking, even though we did the
>> grinding and stain 3 months after the pour. We had to grind the floors
>> twice--once before the first stain and then again to take it off, The
>> second stain looked beautiful but was ruined by an overzealous burnishing
>> (by the grinding machine company rep!). We then followed what Jason
>> suggested...stripped chemically and reapplied the stain and sealer. The
>> results are beautiful. I had some minor fissures, but we filled these and
>> they are not noticeable. The grinding created a horrible mess here, but I
>> did get through it and (now) would say it was worth the hassle.
>>
>> I'd do what you need to do to get rid of the current finish and start
>> again.I wouldn't cover it with anything....you'll pay more and ultimately
>> lose mass with anything but tile. If you're like me, the look of tile
>> wouldn't cut it either.
>>
>> My 2 cents' worth (2.12 cents' worth American these days! ;-) )
>>
>> Lynelle
>>
>> On 27/07/2011 7:04 PM, Bob Klahn wrote:
>>> On 7/27/2011 6:34 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>>>> Also can you explain more about shot blasting? You say it's more
>>>> cost-effective, but how does it compare to grinding as far as time
>>>> involved, how much it's going to totally mess up my house, etc.?
>>>
>>> I don't deal with concrete much, but I do know that a variation of
>>> shot-blasting, using small beads of frozen CO2 works wonders in other
>>> kinds of abrasive cleaning. Much the same as standard shot blasting,
>>> albeit somewhat less abrasive, it has the advantage of thermal abrasion
>>> and the pellets evaporate, reducing clean up.
>>>
>>> I can't say that it's applicable on concrete, but I'd be surprised if ti
>>> didn't have some application.
>>>
>>> Bob Klahn
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> --
>> Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to reach
>> me: lynelle at lahamilton.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 34
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 22:38:04 -0500
> From: Anncha <anncha1 at aol.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <741E2678-6AD4-47F3-8906-6D52091E0A6D at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed";
> DelSp="yes"
>
> I don't understand why anyone would seal the stained floors. Waxing is
> so much nicer, it gives a beautiful warm glow. I did my floors ten
> years ago, waxed them
> and was told to wax them every year, did that once but have never
> bothered again. I am so happy with them and get compliments all the
> time.
>
> Anncha
>
> Anncha Briggs, ASID/ASRID
> AR State Registered Interior Designer #2001
> NCIDQ Certificate #015650
> design and art consultation
> T 501 663 1016
>
> E anncha1 at aol.com
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
> On Jul 27, 2011, at 5:34 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>
>> I can't imagine the dark stains that are peeling up are white based,
>> but I'm no stain expert and (another problem) the contractor refuses
>> to tell me the brand/name of stain used (other than it's water-based).
>>
>> What do you mean "the concrete was never acid etched before using
>> the sealer"? I don't believe anything was done after staining before
>> sealing other than waiting a few days. What is the etching that
>> should have been done--how is it done, etc.? This could be useful in
>> further documenting the problems (since ultimately the contractor IS
>> going to be paying for my new floor, though probably not by their
>> choice).
>>
>> Also can you explain more about shot blasting? You say it's more
>> cost-effective, but how does it compare to grinding as far as time
>> involved, how much it's going to totally mess up my house, etc.? No
>> one's mentioned this yet but it sounds like something I should look
>> into, especially since sealer removal will be required whether I go
>> with more concrete staining or with tile (or something else I
>> haven't yet considered). We're talking about 1500 sq. ft. in
>> multiple rooms and hallways.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Andrew Pace
>> To: Green Building
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 5:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>>
>> Non-acid stains like soy stains or polymer stains only sit on the
>> surface and in some of the macro-pores of the concrete. Acid stain
>> works by chemically reacting with the free lime in the concrete and
>> the salts in the stain, to physically alter the chemistry of the
>> concrete, thus changing the color. The white you see could be a
>> white base stain, or, it could be that the concrete was never acid
>> etched before using the sealer. Acid etching removes the ?cream?
>> off the surface of the concrete. This is the fine white or grey
>> powder that will eventually dust off the surface. Without removing
>> the cream, any coating or topical stain will eventually peel off the
>> surface, since its only sticking to dust.
>>
>> Grinding and shot blasting are two different ways to achieve the
>> same end result. It its a large area, shot blasting will be more
>> cost effective and will require less prep before the next coating is
>> applied.
>>
>>
>> Andrew Pace
>> Green Design Center?
>> Waukesha, WI
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/27/11 5:05 PM, "Ktot (g)" <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I have been told water-based stain--which was used to get the
>> mottled creative pattern that was intended (without white blooms)--
>> does not sink into the concrete like acid-stain does. Either way,
>> where the stain and sealer have pulled up, there's plain white. It's
>> chalky. Numerous concrete contractors had no idea what that was,
>> telling me my contractor must have done a white layer of stain
>> first, which I knew was not the case. One finally pointed out it's
>> calcium carbonate that chemically reacted to something (the diesel/
>> propane fuel? the exterior stain that was used indoors [as I later
>> found out]?) That makes sense to me as one gets white on the finger
>> when rubbing those areas. The white areas are all white--the stain
>> has completely lifted up. So it does not seem to have gone down into
>> the concrete--unless there is more under the calcium carbonate.
>>
>> Also I should have mentioned earlier much of the sealer seems to
>> have disappeared. When put down it was very shiny (as it was
>> supposed to remain) but now in many areas there appears to be little
>> or no sealer (this is from work done two months ago), and one
>> contractor commented the sealer is soft (vs. it supposedly the
>> hardest, most durable there is per my contractor who clearly misled
>> me in numerous ways).
>>
>> Per the sealer tech rep, the sealer does need to be removed whether
>> I go with concrete again or with tile. He seems to lean towards
>> grinding to remove it. Is that the same as the shot blast you mention?
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/832596df/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 35
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:01:06 -0700
> From: "JOHN SALMEN" <terrain at shaw.ca>
> To: "'Green Building'" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <00fd01cc4cda$f9d921c0$ed8b6540$@ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Diamond grinding is a technique that works on any concrete floor to cut the
> floor to a level smooth surface but typically that cut is not very deep - it
> is a commercial process so you need to have that type of contractor
> available. You don't know unfortunately how deep both the colourant and
> stains have gone and concrete can vary in porosity depending on the finish
> so my guess is you would end up with a very smooth terrazzo cut type floor
> basically greyish looking with some stains from whatever has gone on before.
> Probably not that pleasing an effect if you are looking for an even finish -
> at something like 5-10 per square foot for the cut (any subsequent finishes
> extra). Your responsibility is to clearly identify (through samples or
> photos) what you are expecting as a finished result.
>
> Tile could be installed anywhere from 8-20 ft depending on the tile (and
> local install pricing and methods). Slabs are subject to movement and
> settlement so a separation membrane would need to be installed - overly
> large tile could pop grout lines or crack unless the slab has settled
> sufficiently.
>
> There are numerous applications that can topcoat a concrete floor with a
> wide variety of finishes but ultimately you have to work with local skills,
> the advice they give and what you can trust. If they can do tile do tile.
> All the costs will be basically comparable - the commercial solutions
> (grinding, top coating) will be slightly more with a little more commercial
> end look.
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Ktot
> (g)
> Sent: July-27-11 8:32 PM
> To: Green Building
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
> I'm not real clear what you're suggesting when you say you wouldn't cover it
>
> with anything. You mean not anything but concrete stain or grinding? Or you
> only recommend grinding?
>
> I have a contractor coming out next week with a grinding/polishing company
> rep, as apparently the technique the contractor is familiar with won't work
> in my house (he believes) but the rep says there's a new technique that may
> work in my house. That said, I cannot go through all the hassles and time
> your floors apparently took. I built this new house after a total fire loss
> when I was out of state for several weeks last year. The stress of moving to
>
> a new part of my property (for better sun and wind, and more), getting not
> just a new house built but also a new access road, well, septic, solar/wind,
>
> etc., and undergoing a winter build in a very cold climate in the mountains
> was more stress than I ever want to go through again. I could not handle
> having to move out for several months, redoing the floor several more times,
>
> etc.--as it sounds like might be required with the grinding/polishing
> technique. As I mentioned in my original post, I need flooring that 1)
> provides thermal mass, 2) is durable, 3) works with radiant heat, 4) is easy
>
> to maintain, 5) will be relatively easy to put in over the defective
> concrete, 6) fits in with the contemporary/nature style of my house. (I
> realize this list doesn't exactly match what I put in the first email.) So
> far only porcelain or natural stone tile seems to fit the bill, but if
> anyone has any other suggestions, please let me know. (I'm turning away from
>
> natural stone as it apparently scratches and I have dogs, plus much of it is
>
> irregular so may be hard to keep clean.)
>
> Also one additional thought: the master bedroom and bathroom don't need
> thermal mass as they're on the north and west sides of the house with
> minimal windows, so if anyone can recommend something that would look good
> with tile elsewhere (if I go that route) and meet requirements 2-6 above,
> let me know that as well. I've been thinking of keeping everything the same
> material, but that probably isn't really necessary.
>
> Or am I misunderstanding your comments, Lynelle?
>
> Regardless, I've seen a lot of porcelain tile patterns (in large squares,
> not just 12x12) that look great on floors. And after my concrete fiasco I
> tend to like the idea of knowing what I'll be getting--though some of the
> tiles do come with tremendous variety in their tiles.
>
> One other problem with concrete is finding a good contractor. I've met with
> many, many and really am not impressed with most who are interested in my
> job (a few live a couple or more hours away and don't want to come this
> far)--for various reasons. In contrast, the tile people seem to really know
> what they're doing. Or maybe I'm just too skittish after the concrete
> fiasco. I had really trusted the couple I went with, in part due to her
> creative/artistic bent. I haven't found similar creativity/artistry in any
> of the other concrete people.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lynelle Hamilton" <lynelle at lahamilton.com>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
>> A few observations. I also have concrete as my finished floor. They were
>> not without problems in finishing, and I had a guy who was honourable and
>> experienced with all aspects except mechanical polishing (at which he was
>> new).
>>
>> First, there is a white undercoat that can be used here as a base coat
>> over concrete to make for a lighter overall colour. This type of finish
>> has a coat of colour applied over it and then a sealer. The white
>> undercoat is optional. My first set of concrete floors (in my last house)
>> were finished without the white, but with the stain and sealer, then
>> burnished. We had to wait a minimum of 30 days to apply the stain , and
>> that was in August. I certainly had colour variation (looked like an old
>> leather bomber jacket), but no white whatsoever and no lifting of any
>> stain or finish.
>>
>> In my current house, I opted for grinding/stain/sealer/mechanical
>> polishing. It yields an entirely different finish--sort of like the old
>> granite stairs in my high school (not exactly a positive memory, but I got
>
>> over it). We had problems with the finish taking, even though we did the
>> grinding and stain 3 months after the pour. We had to grind the floors
>> twice--once before the first stain and then again to take it off, The
>> second stain looked beautiful but was ruined by an overzealous burnishing
>> (by the grinding machine company rep!). We then followed what Jason
>> suggested...stripped chemically and reapplied the stain and sealer. The
>> results are beautiful. I had some minor fissures, but we filled these and
>
>> they are not noticeable. The grinding created a horrible mess here, but I
>
>> did get through it and (now) would say it was worth the hassle.
>>
>> I'd do what you need to do to get rid of the current finish and start
>> again.I wouldn't cover it with anything....you'll pay more and ultimately
>> lose mass with anything but tile. If you're like me, the look of tile
>> wouldn't cut it either.
>>
>> My 2 cents' worth (2.12 cents' worth American these days! ;-) )
>>
>> Lynelle
>>
>> On 27/07/2011 7:04 PM, Bob Klahn wrote:
>>> On 7/27/2011 6:34 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>>>> Also can you explain more about shot blasting? You say it's more
>>>> cost-effective, but how does it compare to grinding as far as time
>>>> involved, how much it's going to totally mess up my house, etc.?
>>>
>>> I don't deal with concrete much, but I do know that a variation of
>>> shot-blasting, using small beads of frozen CO2 works wonders in other
>>> kinds of abrasive cleaning. Much the same as standard shot blasting,
>>> albeit somewhat less abrasive, it has the advantage of thermal abrasion
>>> and the pellets evaporate, reducing clean up.
>>>
>>> I can't say that it's applicable on concrete, but I'd be surprised if ti
>>> didn't have some application.
>>>
>>> Bob Klahn
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
> gylists.org
>>
>> --
>> Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to reach
>> me: lynelle at lahamilton.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
> gylists.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
> gylists.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 36
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 07:58:41 -0400
> From: Lynelle Hamilton <lynelle at lahamilton.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <4E314EF1.3000101 at lahamilton.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> First, let me say you have amazing resilience, given all you've gone
> through. It was hard enough living in my garage, and I had not gone
> through the loss of a fire.
>
> What I meant was that I wouldn't tile, carpet or lay wood. I'd strip or
> grind/polish with a new stain. Your new concrete guy is a good one to
> ask about which is best, given the condition of the floor and the
> surface the floor has already had applied. FWIW, we tried stuff in the
> walk in closet first to see, before using the process in the "open"
> areas. If it were me, I'd try to grind and stain again, partially
> because I like the finish I get with the grinding, but it is messy.
> Also, there are many treatments that are meant to be applied over "old"
> concrete, so make certain your contractor lays out all the options.
>
> I didn't mean to sound like it took months. The entire process for all
> the redos took about 3 weeks. The area done was about 2200 sq feet,
> (including a sun space). It was mid winter, in Ontario Canada, so we
> had to use electric heat and I was living in my garage. It did seem
> forever, but it wasn't. My floor had cured, so my experience with the
> process may be different than yours.
>
> I did find (as have visitors) that the small cracks I have, when
> noticed, contribute to the overall look of stone...rather like fissures.
> We made the conscious decision to forego expansion joints and expected
> some cracking.
>
> When I was selecting the finish, my guy directed me to
> http://www.concretenetwork.com It's a great source of ideas and
> information.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Lynelle
>
> On 27/07/2011 11:32 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>> I'm not real clear what you're suggesting when you say you wouldn't
>> cover it with anything. You mean not anything but concrete stain or
>> grinding? Or you only recommend grinding?
>>
>> I have a contractor coming out next week with a grinding/polishing
>> company rep, as apparently the technique the contractor is familiar
>> with won't work in my house (he believes) but the rep says there's a
>> new technique that may work in my house. That said, I cannot go
>> through all the hassles and time your floors apparently took. I built
>> this new house after a total fire loss when I was out of state for
>> several weeks last year. The stress of moving to a new part of my
>> property (for better sun and wind, and more), getting not just a new
>> house built but also a new access road, well, septic, solar/wind,
>> etc., and undergoing a winter build in a very cold climate in the
>> mountains was more stress than I ever want to go through again. I
>> could not handle having to move out for several months, redoing the
>> floor several more times, etc.--as it sounds like might be required
>> with the grinding/polishing technique. As I mentioned in my original
>> post, I need flooring that 1) provides thermal mass, 2) is durable, 3)
>> works with radiant heat, 4) is easy to maintain, 5) will be relatively
>> easy to put in over the defective concrete, 6) fits in with the
>> contemporary/nature style of my house. (I realize this list doesn't
>> exactly match what I put in the first email.) So far only porcelain or
>> natural stone tile seems to fit the bill, but if anyone has any other
>> suggestions, please let me know. (I'm turning away from natural stone
>> as it apparently scratches and I have dogs, plus much of it is
>> irregular so may be hard to keep clean.)
>>
>> Also one additional thought: the master bedroom and bathroom don't
>> need thermal mass as they're on the north and west sides of the house
>> with minimal windows, so if anyone can recommend something that would
>> look good with tile elsewhere (if I go that route) and meet
>> requirements 2-6 above, let me know that as well. I've been thinking
>> of keeping everything the same material, but that probably isn't
>> really necessary.
>>
>> Or am I misunderstanding your comments, Lynelle?
>>
>> Regardless, I've seen a lot of porcelain tile patterns (in large
>> squares, not just 12x12) that look great on floors. And after my
>> concrete fiasco I tend to like the idea of knowing what I'll be
>> getting--though some of the tiles do come with tremendous variety in
>> their tiles.
>>
>> One other problem with concrete is finding a good contractor. I've met
>> with many, many and really am not impressed with most who are
>> interested in my job (a few live a couple or more hours away and don't
>> want to come this far)--for various reasons. In contrast, the tile
>> people seem to really know what they're doing. Or maybe I'm just too
>> skittish after the concrete fiasco. I had really trusted the couple I
>> went with, in part due to her creative/artistic bent. I haven't found
>> similar creativity/artistry in any of the other concrete people.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynelle Hamilton"
>> <lynelle at lahamilton.com>
>> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>>
>>
>>> A few observations. I also have concrete as my finished floor. They
>>> were not without problems in finishing, and I had a guy who was
>>> honourable and experienced with all aspects except mechanical
>>> polishing (at which he was new).
>>>
>>> First, there is a white undercoat that can be used here as a base
>>> coat over concrete to make for a lighter overall colour. This type
>>> of finish has a coat of colour applied over it and then a sealer. The
>>> white undercoat is optional. My first set of concrete floors (in my
>>> last house) were finished without the white, but with the stain and
>>> sealer, then burnished. We had to wait a minimum of 30 days to apply
>>> the stain , and that was in August. I certainly had colour variation
>>> (looked like an old leather bomber jacket), but no white whatsoever
>>> and no lifting of any stain or finish.
>>>
>>> In my current house, I opted for grinding/stain/sealer/mechanical
>>> polishing. It yields an entirely different finish--sort of like the
>>> old granite stairs in my high school (not exactly a positive memory,
>>> but I got over it). We had problems with the finish taking, even
>>> though we did the grinding and stain 3 months after the pour. We had
>>> to grind the floors twice--once before the first stain and then again
>>> to take it off, The second stain looked beautiful but was ruined by
>>> an overzealous burnishing (by the grinding machine company rep!). We
>>> then followed what Jason suggested...stripped chemically and
>>> reapplied the stain and sealer. The results are beautiful. I had
>>> some minor fissures, but we filled these and they are not
>>> noticeable. The grinding created a horrible mess here, but I did get
>>> through it and (now) would say it was worth the hassle.
>>>
>>> I'd do what you need to do to get rid of the current finish and start
>>> again.I wouldn't cover it with anything....you'll pay more and
>>> ultimately lose mass with anything but tile. If you're like me, the
>>> look of tile wouldn't cut it either.
>>>
>>> My 2 cents' worth (2.12 cents' worth American these days! ;-) )
>>>
>>> Lynelle
>>>
>>> On 27/07/2011 7:04 PM, Bob Klahn wrote:
>>>> On 7/27/2011 6:34 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>>>>> Also can you explain more about shot blasting? You say it's more
>>>>> cost-effective, but how does it compare to grinding as far as time
>>>>> involved, how much it's going to totally mess up my house, etc.?
>>>>
>>>> I don't deal with concrete much, but I do know that a variation of
>>>> shot-blasting, using small beads of frozen CO2 works wonders in
>>>> other kinds of abrasive cleaning. Much the same as standard shot
>>>> blasting, albeit somewhat less abrasive, it has the advantage of
>>>> thermal abrasion and the pellets evaporate, reducing clean up.
>>>>
>>>> I can't say that it's applicable on concrete, but I'd be surprised
>>>> if ti didn't have some application.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Klahn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to
>>> reach me: lynelle at lahamilton.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>
> --
> Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to reach
> me: lynelle at lahamilton.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 37
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:02:38 -0400
> From: Alan Abrams <alan at abramsdesignbuild.com>
> To: listserv Green Building new
> <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Greenbuilding] semantics
> Message-ID:
> <CADj3_s7G82bksMBQJmZdWgU4XTjXatKqLymTcb=XZ--DkQs8MQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> language continually evolves...
>
> http://www.mapleblock.com/detail/maple-butcher-block-countertops-25/
>
>
>
> *Alan Abrams**
> Abrams Design Build LLC*
> *A sustainable approach to beautiful space*
>
> 6411 Orchard Avenue Suite 102
> Takoma Park, MD 20912
> office 301-270-NET- ZERO (301-270-6380)
> fax 301-270-1466
> cell 202-437-8583
> alan at abramsdesignbuild.com
> www.abramsdesignbuild.com
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/6c4ba7ef/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 38
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 08:59:49 -0500
> From: "Ktot \(g\)" <ktottotc at gmail.com>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <0EB66DC9513041B9BA94763EFE342E4A at Barb27E1513D96>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> I have been told by numerous concrete contractors that after the stain, a sealer is always applied--one of several possible types. Then a layer of wax may be applied, as that provides a scuff or scratch layer. But without exception, everyone told me after staining, they apply a sealer before any possible wax.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Anncha
> To: Green Building
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 10:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
> I don't understand why anyone would seal the stained floors. Waxing is so much nicer, it gives a beautiful warm glow. I did my floors ten years ago, waxed them
> and was told to wax them every year, did that once but have never bothered again. I am so happy with them and get compliments all the time.
>
>
> Anncha
>
>
> Anncha Briggs, ASID/ASRID
> AR State Registered Interior Designer #2001
> NCIDQ Certificate #015650
> design and art consultation
> T 501 663 1016
>
>
> E anncha1 at aol.com
>
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
> On Jul 27, 2011, at 5:34 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>
>
> I can't imagine the dark stains that are peeling up are white based, but I'm no stain expert and (another problem) the contractor refuses to tell me the brand/name of stain used (other than it's water-based).
>
> What do you mean "the concrete was never acid etched before using the sealer"? I don't believe anything was done after staining before sealing other than waiting a few days. What is the etching that should have been done--how is it done, etc.? This could be useful in further documenting the problems (since ultimately the contractor IS going to be paying for my new floor, though probably not by their choice).
>
> Also can you explain more about shot blasting? You say it's more cost-effective, but how does it compare to grinding as far as time involved, how much it's going to totally mess up my house, etc.? No one's mentioned this yet but it sounds like something I should look into, especially since sealer removal will be required whether I go with more concrete staining or with tile (or something else I haven't yet considered). We're talking about 1500 sq. ft. in multiple rooms and hallways.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Pace
> To: Green Building
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 5:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
> Non-acid stains like soy stains or polymer stains only sit on the surface and in some of the macro-pores of the concrete. Acid stain works by chemically reacting with the free lime in the concrete and the salts in the stain, to physically alter the chemistry of the concrete, thus changing the color. The white you see could be a white base stain, or, it could be that the concrete was never acid etched before using the sealer. Acid etching removes the ?cream? off the surface of the concrete. This is the fine white or grey powder that will eventually dust off the surface. Without removing the cream, any coating or topical stain will eventually peel off the surface, since its only sticking to dust.
>
> Grinding and shot blasting are two different ways to achieve the same end result. It its a large area, shot blasting will be more cost effective and will require less prep before the next coating is applied.
>
>
> Andrew Pace
> Green Design Center?
> Waukesha, WI
>
>
>
> On 7/27/11 5:05 PM, "Ktot (g)" <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have been told water-based stain--which was used to get the mottled creative pattern that was intended (without white blooms)--does not sink into the concrete like acid-stain does. Either way, where the stain and sealer have pulled up, there's plain white. It's chalky. Numerous concrete contractors had no idea what that was, telling me my contractor must have done a white layer of stain first, which I knew was not the case. One finally pointed out it's calcium carbonate that chemically reacted to something (the diesel/propane fuel? the exterior stain that was used indoors [as I later found out]?) That makes sense to me as one gets white on the finger when rubbing those areas. The white areas are all white--the stain has completely lifted up. So it does not seem to have gone down into the concrete--unless there is more under the calcium carbonate.
>
> Also I should have mentioned earlier much of the sealer seems to have disappeared. When put down it was very shiny (as it was supposed to remain) but now in many areas there appears to be little or no sealer (this is from work done two months ago), and one contractor commented the sealer is soft (vs. it supposedly the hardest, most durable there is per my contractor who clearly misled me in numerous ways).
>
> Per the sealer tech rep, the sealer does need to be removed whether I go with concrete again or with tile. He seems to lean towards grinding to remove it. Is that the same as the shot blast you mention?
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/32e8a52f/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 39
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 07:03:40 -0700
> From: "JOHN SALMEN" <terrain at shaw.ca>
> To: "'Green Building'" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <002401cc4d2f$274de600$75e9b200$@ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
> Thanks for that link. Useful site - interesting information on flyash
> content inhibiting staining and the increasing use of dyes.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Lynelle
> Hamilton
> Sent: July-28-11 4:59 AM
> To: Green Building
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
> First, let me say you have amazing resilience, given all you've gone
> through. It was hard enough living in my garage, and I had not gone
> through the loss of a fire.
>
> What I meant was that I wouldn't tile, carpet or lay wood. I'd strip or
> grind/polish with a new stain. Your new concrete guy is a good one to
> ask about which is best, given the condition of the floor and the
> surface the floor has already had applied. FWIW, we tried stuff in the
> walk in closet first to see, before using the process in the "open"
> areas. If it were me, I'd try to grind and stain again, partially
> because I like the finish I get with the grinding, but it is messy.
> Also, there are many treatments that are meant to be applied over "old"
> concrete, so make certain your contractor lays out all the options.
>
> I didn't mean to sound like it took months. The entire process for all
> the redos took about 3 weeks. The area done was about 2200 sq feet,
> (including a sun space). It was mid winter, in Ontario Canada, so we
> had to use electric heat and I was living in my garage. It did seem
> forever, but it wasn't. My floor had cured, so my experience with the
> process may be different than yours.
>
> I did find (as have visitors) that the small cracks I have, when
> noticed, contribute to the overall look of stone...rather like fissures.
> We made the conscious decision to forego expansion joints and expected
> some cracking.
>
> When I was selecting the finish, my guy directed me to
> http://www.concretenetwork.com It's a great source of ideas and
> information.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Lynelle
>
> On 27/07/2011 11:32 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>> I'm not real clear what you're suggesting when you say you wouldn't
>> cover it with anything. You mean not anything but concrete stain or
>> grinding? Or you only recommend grinding?
>>
>> I have a contractor coming out next week with a grinding/polishing
>> company rep, as apparently the technique the contractor is familiar
>> with won't work in my house (he believes) but the rep says there's a
>> new technique that may work in my house. That said, I cannot go
>> through all the hassles and time your floors apparently took. I built
>> this new house after a total fire loss when I was out of state for
>> several weeks last year. The stress of moving to a new part of my
>> property (for better sun and wind, and more), getting not just a new
>> house built but also a new access road, well, septic, solar/wind,
>> etc., and undergoing a winter build in a very cold climate in the
>> mountains was more stress than I ever want to go through again. I
>> could not handle having to move out for several months, redoing the
>> floor several more times, etc.--as it sounds like might be required
>> with the grinding/polishing technique. As I mentioned in my original
>> post, I need flooring that 1) provides thermal mass, 2) is durable, 3)
>> works with radiant heat, 4) is easy to maintain, 5) will be relatively
>> easy to put in over the defective concrete, 6) fits in with the
>> contemporary/nature style of my house. (I realize this list doesn't
>> exactly match what I put in the first email.) So far only porcelain or
>> natural stone tile seems to fit the bill, but if anyone has any other
>> suggestions, please let me know. (I'm turning away from natural stone
>> as it apparently scratches and I have dogs, plus much of it is
>> irregular so may be hard to keep clean.)
>>
>> Also one additional thought: the master bedroom and bathroom don't
>> need thermal mass as they're on the north and west sides of the house
>> with minimal windows, so if anyone can recommend something that would
>> look good with tile elsewhere (if I go that route) and meet
>> requirements 2-6 above, let me know that as well. I've been thinking
>> of keeping everything the same material, but that probably isn't
>> really necessary.
>>
>> Or am I misunderstanding your comments, Lynelle?
>>
>> Regardless, I've seen a lot of porcelain tile patterns (in large
>> squares, not just 12x12) that look great on floors. And after my
>> concrete fiasco I tend to like the idea of knowing what I'll be
>> getting--though some of the tiles do come with tremendous variety in
>> their tiles.
>>
>> One other problem with concrete is finding a good contractor. I've met
>> with many, many and really am not impressed with most who are
>> interested in my job (a few live a couple or more hours away and don't
>> want to come this far)--for various reasons. In contrast, the tile
>> people seem to really know what they're doing. Or maybe I'm just too
>> skittish after the concrete fiasco. I had really trusted the couple I
>> went with, in part due to her creative/artistic bent. I haven't found
>> similar creativity/artistry in any of the other concrete people.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynelle Hamilton"
>> <lynelle at lahamilton.com>
>> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>>
>>
>>> A few observations. I also have concrete as my finished floor. They
>>> were not without problems in finishing, and I had a guy who was
>>> honourable and experienced with all aspects except mechanical
>>> polishing (at which he was new).
>>>
>>> First, there is a white undercoat that can be used here as a base
>>> coat over concrete to make for a lighter overall colour. This type
>>> of finish has a coat of colour applied over it and then a sealer. The
>>> white undercoat is optional. My first set of concrete floors (in my
>>> last house) were finished without the white, but with the stain and
>>> sealer, then burnished. We had to wait a minimum of 30 days to apply
>>> the stain , and that was in August. I certainly had colour variation
>>> (looked like an old leather bomber jacket), but no white whatsoever
>>> and no lifting of any stain or finish.
>>>
>>> In my current house, I opted for grinding/stain/sealer/mechanical
>>> polishing. It yields an entirely different finish--sort of like the
>>> old granite stairs in my high school (not exactly a positive memory,
>>> but I got over it). We had problems with the finish taking, even
>>> though we did the grinding and stain 3 months after the pour. We had
>>> to grind the floors twice--once before the first stain and then again
>>> to take it off, The second stain looked beautiful but was ruined by
>>> an overzealous burnishing (by the grinding machine company rep!). We
>>> then followed what Jason suggested...stripped chemically and
>>> reapplied the stain and sealer. The results are beautiful. I had
>>> some minor fissures, but we filled these and they are not
>>> noticeable. The grinding created a horrible mess here, but I did get
>>> through it and (now) would say it was worth the hassle.
>>>
>>> I'd do what you need to do to get rid of the current finish and start
>>> again.I wouldn't cover it with anything....you'll pay more and
>>> ultimately lose mass with anything but tile. If you're like me, the
>>> look of tile wouldn't cut it either.
>>>
>>> My 2 cents' worth (2.12 cents' worth American these days! ;-) )
>>>
>>> Lynelle
>>>
>>> On 27/07/2011 7:04 PM, Bob Klahn wrote:
>>>> On 7/27/2011 6:34 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>>>>> Also can you explain more about shot blasting? You say it's more
>>>>> cost-effective, but how does it compare to grinding as far as time
>>>>> involved, how much it's going to totally mess up my house, etc.?
>>>>
>>>> I don't deal with concrete much, but I do know that a variation of
>>>> shot-blasting, using small beads of frozen CO2 works wonders in
>>>> other kinds of abrasive cleaning. Much the same as standard shot
>>>> blasting, albeit somewhat less abrasive, it has the advantage of
>>>> thermal abrasion and the pellets evaporate, reducing clean up.
>>>>
>>>> I can't say that it's applicable on concrete, but I'd be surprised
>>>> if ti didn't have some application.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Klahn
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
> gylists.org
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to
>>> reach me: lynelle at lahamilton.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
> gylists.org
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
> gylists.org
>>
>>
>
> --
> Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to reach
> me: lynelle at lahamilton.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
> gylists.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 40
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 09:25:44 -0500
> From: Anncha <anncha1 at aol.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <4A8004CB-7BE6-4BAF-B30D-9829512F90F3 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed";
> DelSp="yes"
>
> All the jobs I have been involved in we have only used a sealer once,
> and it was in a commercial setting. Too shiny, for my personal taste.
> With wax, the floors are matte more looking and grow more beautiful
> by the year and take on their own patina. One caveat, the first two
> weeks, the floors are a little slippery, but after that, no worries.
>
>
>
> Anncha
>
> Anncha Briggs, ASID/ASRID
> AR State Registered Interior Designer #2001
> NCIDQ Certificate #015650
> design and art consultation
> T 501 663 1016
>
> E anncha1 at aol.com
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
> On Jul 28, 2011, at 8:59 AM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>
>> I have been told by numerous concrete contractors that after the
>> stain, a sealer is always applied--one of several possible types.
>> Then a layer of wax may be applied, as that provides a scuff or
>> scratch layer. But without exception, everyone told me after
>> staining, they apply a sealer before any possible wax.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Anncha
>> To: Green Building
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 10:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>>
>> I don't understand why anyone would seal the stained floors. Waxing
>> is so much nicer, it gives a beautiful warm glow. I did my floors
>> ten years ago, waxed them
>> and was told to wax them every year, did that once but have never
>> bothered again. I am so happy with them and get compliments all the
>> time.
>>
>> Anncha
>>
>> Anncha Briggs, ASID/ASRID
>> AR State Registered Interior Designer #2001
>> NCIDQ Certificate #015650
>> design and art consultation
>> T 501 663 1016
>>
>> E anncha1 at aol.com
>>
>> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>>
>> On Jul 27, 2011, at 5:34 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>>
>>> I can't imagine the dark stains that are peeling up are white
>>> based, but I'm no stain expert and (another problem) the contractor
>>> refuses to tell me the brand/name of stain used (other than it's
>>> water-based).
>>>
>>> What do you mean "the concrete was never acid etched before using
>>> the sealer"? I don't believe anything was done after staining
>>> before sealing other than waiting a few days. What is the etching
>>> that should have been done--how is it done, etc.? This could be
>>> useful in further documenting the problems (since ultimately the
>>> contractor IS going to be paying for my new floor, though probably
>>> not by their choice).
>>>
>>> Also can you explain more about shot blasting? You say it's more
>>> cost-effective, but how does it compare to grinding as far as time
>>> involved, how much it's going to totally mess up my house, etc.? No
>>> one's mentioned this yet but it sounds like something I should look
>>> into, especially since sealer removal will be required whether I go
>>> with more concrete staining or with tile (or something else I
>>> haven't yet considered). We're talking about 1500 sq. ft. in
>>> multiple rooms and hallways.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Andrew Pace
>>> To: Green Building
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 5:23 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>>>
>>> Non-acid stains like soy stains or polymer stains only sit on the
>>> surface and in some of the macro-pores of the concrete. Acid stain
>>> works by chemically reacting with the free lime in the concrete and
>>> the salts in the stain, to physically alter the chemistry of the
>>> concrete, thus changing the color. The white you see could be a
>>> white base stain, or, it could be that the concrete was never acid
>>> etched before using the sealer. Acid etching removes the ?cream?
>>> off the surface of the concrete. This is the fine white or grey
>>> powder that will eventually dust off the surface. Without removing
>>> the cream, any coating or topical stain will eventually peel off
>>> the surface, since its only sticking to dust.
>>>
>>> Grinding and shot blasting are two different ways to achieve the
>>> same end result. It its a large area, shot blasting will be more
>>> cost effective and will require less prep before the next coating
>>> is applied.
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew Pace
>>> Green Design Center?
>>> Waukesha, WI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 7/27/11 5:05 PM, "Ktot (g)" <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have been told water-based stain--which was used to get the
>>> mottled creative pattern that was intended (without white blooms)--
>>> does not sink into the concrete like acid-stain does. Either way,
>>> where the stain and sealer have pulled up, there's plain white.
>>> It's chalky. Numerous concrete contractors had no idea what that
>>> was, telling me my contractor must have done a white layer of stain
>>> first, which I knew was not the case. One finally pointed out it's
>>> calcium carbonate that chemically reacted to something (the diesel/
>>> propane fuel? the exterior stain that was used indoors [as I later
>>> found out]?) That makes sense to me as one gets white on the finger
>>> when rubbing those areas. The white areas are all white--the stain
>>> has completely lifted up. So it does not seem to have gone down
>>> into the concrete--unless there is more under the calcium carbonate.
>>>
>>> Also I should have mentioned earlier much of the sealer seems to
>>> have disappeared. When put down it was very shiny (as it was
>>> supposed to remain) but now in many areas there appears to be
>>> little or no sealer (this is from work done two months ago), and
>>> one contractor commented the sealer is soft (vs. it supposedly the
>>> hardest, most durable there is per my contractor who clearly misled
>>> me in numerous ways).
>>>
>>> Per the sealer tech rep, the sealer does need to be removed whether
>>> I go with concrete again or with tile. He seems to lean towards
>>> grinding to remove it. Is that the same as the shot blast you
>>> mention?
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/c3b3b8d4/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 41
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:33:18 -0400
> From: RT <Archilogic at yahoo.ca>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <op.vzb2pog7t09nld at t60-pc>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed;
> delsp=yes
>
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:56:11 -0400, Ktot (g) <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Talking to various experts, at least 28 days should have been left
>> between pour and cure.
>
> Either you or the "various experts" are confused because the above
> statement makes no sense.
> A look at the strength vs time graph (example shown in link provided in
> previous message)
> will quickly illustrate why.
>
> There is no assurance that grinding down improperly cured concrete
> (whether it be with carborundum stones or diamond stones) will yield a
> better finished surface.
>
> If the concrete was crappy concrete (ie compromised mix quality due to
> addition of water at the site, followed by improper curing) to begin with,
> grinding away the more dense surface layer (created as a result of the
> troweling process) is only going to expose more poor quality concrete.
>
> Then you'd still have to apply surface treatments in order to make the
> concrete look and wear like something other than crappy concrete. And
> since the wear layer would only be a very thin, chemical stew film, it's
> likely need to be refinished again and again and again over the years.
>
> Why bother with the time, trouble, mess , energy and expense ?
>
> I'd cover it over with tile (preferably an unglazed, fully vitrified
> porcelain or such-like) or stone (not a limestone or marble because
> they're too soft).
>
>
> --
> === * ===
> Rob Tom
> Kanata, Ontario, Canada
> < A r c h i L o g i c at Y a h o o dot C A >
> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit REPLY)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 42
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:45:46 -0400
> From: "Marilyn" <cybercrone at eol.ca>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Just an update
> Message-ID: <4E313DDA.4329.414430 at cybercrone.eol.ca>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
>
> That sounds amazing! I hope you will tell us how it does in the winter, and maybe some
> photos?
> ~m
>
> -------------- Original message ---------------
> thanks for the info--I hope you will keep us posted on performance.
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 9:33 AM, Lynelle Hamilton <lynelle at lahamilton.com> wrote:
> I knew I'd raise questions.
> I am in Napanee, Ontario (SW of Kingston). HDD annually is 4311; CDD is 215.
> These stats are from the Weather Network. The HDD is quite a bit higher than
> EnCan's estimates for Kingston, so I don't know how accurate they may be.
> Floor is 2200 Sq ft.
> I don't have cooling, and the heat is tied to the dryer and DHW and stove. I am
> trying to calculate summer usage to give me a rough idea of the winter heat load.
> No blower test as yet
> The house does rely on solar gain and shading. 3' overhangs on all sides.
> Windows calculated at 13% of wall area. Most are south facing (only 30sq ft of
> windows on north wall) Windows were 'tuned' to the exposure by Thermotech)
> 14' door/window combo in great room. Small solarium on south with approx 40 sq
> ft of glazing
> Concrete floors throughout
>
> L
>
> On 27/07/2011 8:51 AM, Alan Abrams wrote:
> Lynelle-
>
> Congrats on the house. One hundred questions come to mind. Such as:
> What region are you?
> What are the average HDD's and CDD's for your location?
> What is the floor area of the house?
> Can you isolate the KW's and or BTU's used for heating and cooling for given
> periods?
> Did you do a blower door test on the house after completion? Do you use heat
> recovery ventilation?
> Does the house rely on solar heat gain and or solar shading? Any other
> consideration of window location and solar exposure?
> What sort of glazing did you use?
>
> regards-
> AA
>
> *Alan Abrams**
> Abrams Design Build LLC*
> /A sustainable approach to beautiful space/
>
> 6411 Orchard Avenue Suite 102
> Takoma Park, MD 20912
> office 301-270-NET- ZERO (301-270-6380)
> fax 301-270-1466
> cell 202-437-8583
> alan at abramsdesignbuild.com <mailto:alan at abramsdesignbuild.com>
> www.abramsdesignbuild.com <http://www.abramsdesignbuild.com/>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 8:39 AM, Lynelle Hamilton <lynelle at lahamilton.com
> <mailto:lynelle at lahamilton.com>> wrote:
>
> Since I get tremendous information from the folks on this list, I
> thought I'd share what has transpired so far on my house, in the
> hope it helps others.
>
> House is Durisol, R28, plus 2" of closed cell soy foam on outside.
> Slab on grade with 5ft frost wall underneath. North wall bermed
> to 5'. Windows are Thermotech. 2200 square feet.
> Overall: R42 in walls, R34 under slab, R65 in ceiling.
> LED lights (mostly from IKEA) in many areas, CFLs in many. 2
> Halogens, bought when the salesperson promised that the GU10 CFLs
> would fit in the fixture. They did not, so both are on dimmers
> and will be replaced when the budget allows.
> HeatKit masonry heater; propane fired radiant in floor (Rinnai on
> demand system).
> Propane stove and dryer
> No waste hot water recovery system, as virtually all drains are
> embedded in floor.
> Outer taps fed by cistern, run by jet pump as needed. Jet pump
> will eventually run on solar.
>
> Performance:
>
> 95-98F degree heat last week, for several days. Minimal wind
> Interior temp never higher than 75F.
> Hydro (electricity) bills past two months <$70/month, even when
> running table saw, mitre saw and concrete mixer, in addition to
> home office equipment.
> I can't gauge propane consumption yet, as the tank won't be
> refilled until the fall.
>
> FWIW!
>
> Thanks again for all the information you've given me.
>
> -- Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to
>
> reach me: lynelle at lahamilton.com <mailto:lynelle at lahamilton.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
> <mailto:Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org>
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> --
> Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to reach me:
> lynelle at lahamilton.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
>
> Cybercrone
> http://www.eol.ca/~cybercrone
> Hm-m-m-m . . .
> A good laugh is sunshine in a house.
> --William Makepeace Thackeray
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/f0090604/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 43
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:45:05 -0400
> From: Jeff Buscher <jeff.buscher at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID:
> <CAMozq2PT5NCZbyMKF-c=Yw+PF7vCBcw9uPe8E9B-SMt763n_TA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> We just used a single application of Earth Paint
> Rainforest<http://www.earthpaint.net/product_rainforest_more_info.php>(linseed
> oil, pine resin, bees wax, and citrus solvent) on a slab. We had
> it tinted with 200% of the normal amount of pigment that would be normally
> be used. We didn't do any concrete prep or use any additional sealers. We
> also scored the slab with a 4' grid pattern and grouted the joints. It has
> a nice matte leather look and gets a lot of compliments. A lot of people
> ask if it's some kind of stone.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Anncha <anncha1 at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> All the jobs I have been involved in we have only used a sealer once, and
>> it was in a commercial setting. Too shiny, for my personal taste.
>> With wax, the floors are matte more looking and grow more beautiful by
>> the year and take on their own patina. One caveat, the first two weeks, the
>> floors are a little slippery, but after that, no worries.
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/61633126/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 44
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:02:54 -0500
> From: Anncha <anncha1 at aol.com>
> To: ArchiLogic at chaffyahoo.ca, Green Building
> <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <E061D268-3D11-4BC9-81CB-75E27F1F4493 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed";
> DelSp="yes"
>
> Yes, new concrete must cure before it will take any stain, at least 28
> days!
>
> Anncha
>
>
> Anncha Briggs, ASID/ASRID
> AR State Registered Interior Designer #2001
> NCIDQ Certificate #015650
> design and art consultation
> T 501 663 1016
>
> E anncha1 at aol.com
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
> On Jul 28, 2011, at 9:33 AM, RT wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:56:11 -0400, Ktot (g) <ktottotc at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Talking to various experts, at least 28 days should have been left
>>> between pour and cure.
>>
>> Either you or the "various experts" are confused because the above
>> statement makes no sense.
>> A look at the strength vs time graph (example shown in link provided
>> in previous message)
>> will quickly illustrate why.
>>
>> There is no assurance that grinding down improperly cured concrete
>> (whether it be with carborundum stones or diamond stones) will yield a
>> better finished surface.
>>
>> If the concrete was crappy concrete (ie compromised mix quality due
>> to addition of water at the site, followed by improper curing) to
>> begin with, grinding away the more dense surface layer (created as a
>> result of the troweling process) is only going to expose more poor
>> quality concrete.
>>
>> Then you'd still have to apply surface treatments in order to make
>> the concrete look and wear like something other than crappy
>> concrete. And since the wear layer would only be a very thin,
>> chemical stew film, it's likely need to be refinished again and
>> again and again over the years.
>>
>> Why bother with the time, trouble, mess , energy and expense ?
>>
>> I'd cover it over with tile (preferably an unglazed, fully vitrified
>> porcelain or such-like) or stone (not a limestone or marble because
>> they're too soft).
>>
>>
>> --
>> === * ===
>> Rob Tom
>> Kanata, Ontario, Canada
>> < A r c h i L o g i c at Y a h o o dot C A >
>> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit REPLY)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/29827f83/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 45
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:04:14 -0400
> From: Alan Abrams <alan at abramsdesignbuild.com>
> To: ArchiLogic at chaffyahoo.ca, Green Building
> <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID:
> <CADj3_s7X73QgC_8ZzGyuOrRXi7FrYZA3-nti9KheR3KxG2kLKA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> adding to the comments below--in general--it has become almost an industry
> standard to finish concrete incorrectly. to achieve a strong, weather
> resistant surface, the concrete has to be jitterbugged while still plastic.
>
>
> this is accomplished, immediately after screeding, with a device that is a
> flat, lightly framed plate of perforated aluminum, with a looping handle.
> The plate is driven with repetitve vertical blows to punch down the coarse
> aggregate and bring up the fines. Hence the term "jitterbug," representing
> the motion of the operator's butt as he maneuvers the device. Then the
> surface is lovingly bullfloated until it gleams. all this tends to bring up
> a film of water carrying only the finest particles.
>
> Lastly, when the film of water evaporates, the mix is hard troweled, further
> compacting the surface. what is left near the surface is mostly a well
> consolidated mix of fines and portland, that (if drying is properly
> retarded) will cure to a hard, durable surface.
>
> in contrast, it is universal for the contractor to place, screed, eat lunch,
> and maybe sweep with a stiff broom. The resulting surface is a slurry of
> water and portland, barely covering the coarse aggregate. First frost, this
> surface disintegrates, leaving a horrible pock marked surface that continues
> to erode. Almost EVERY sidewalk in DC is placed this way--I cannot take a
> walk in my community without seeing yard after yard of this stuff.
>
> AA
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:33 AM, RT <Archilogic at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:56:11 -0400, Ktot (g) <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Talking to various experts, at least 28 days should have been left between
>>> pour and cure.
>>>
>>
>> Either you or the "various experts" are confused because the above
>> statement makes no sense.
>> A look at the strength vs time graph (example shown in link provided in
>> previous message)
>> will quickly illustrate why.
>>
>> There is no assurance that grinding down improperly cured concrete
>> (whether it be with carborundum stones or diamond stones) will yield a
>> better finished surface.
>>
>> If the concrete was crappy concrete (ie compromised mix quality due to
>> addition of water at the site, followed by improper curing) to begin with,
>> grinding away the more dense surface layer (created as a result of the
>> troweling process) is only going to expose more poor quality concrete.
>>
>> Then you'd still have to apply surface treatments in order to make the
>> concrete look and wear like something other than crappy concrete. And since
>> the wear layer would only be a very thin, chemical stew film, it's likely
>> need to be refinished again and again and again over the years.
>>
>> Why bother with the time, trouble, mess , energy and expense ?
>>
>> I'd cover it over with tile (preferably an unglazed, fully vitrified
>> porcelain or such-like) or stone (not a limestone or marble because they're
>> too soft).
>>
>>
>> --
>> === * ===
>> Rob Tom
>> Kanata, Ontario, Canada
>> < A r c h i L o g i c at Y a h o o dot C A >
>> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit REPLY)
>>
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.**org <Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.**org/mailman/listinfo/**greenbuilding_lists.*
>> *bioenergylists.org<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/d9c3fd1b/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 46
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:06:37 -0500
> From: Anncha <anncha1 at aol.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <726D2E93-185E-4CDD-8B52-D8B6A0BE090B at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed";
> DelSp="yes"
>
> Exactly, the floors takes on a wonderful matte look and do look like
> stone after a while, especially if you score the concrete.
>
> Anncha
>
>
> Anncha Briggs, ASID/ASRID
> AR State Registered Interior Designer #2001
> NCIDQ Certificate #015650
> design and art consultation
> T 501 663 1016
>
> E anncha1 at aol.com
>
> Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
>
> On Jul 28, 2011, at 9:45 AM, Jeff Buscher wrote:
>
>> We just used a single application of Earth Paint Rainforest (linseed
>> oil, pine resin, bees wax, and citrus solvent) on a slab. We had it
>> tinted with 200% of the normal amount of pigment that would be
>> normally be used. We didn't do any concrete prep or use any
>> additional sealers. We also scored the slab with a 4' grid pattern
>> and grouted the joints. It has a nice matte leather look and gets a
>> lot of compliments. A lot of people ask if it's some kind of stone.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Anncha <anncha1 at aol.com> wrote:
>> All the jobs I have been involved in we have only used a sealer
>> once, and it was in a commercial setting. Too shiny, for my personal
>> taste.
>> With wax, the floors are matte more looking and grow more
>> beautiful by the year and take on their own patina. One caveat, the
>> first two weeks, the floors are a little slippery, but after that,
>> no worries.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/9ba6ae2c/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 47
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 13:07:35 -0500
> From: Leslie Moyer <lesliemoyer at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <3A4C6AB8-2D21-48EA-8524-E833C820CF12 at lrec.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On Jul 27, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Ward Edwards wrote:
>
>> For our counters we used unfinished 3/4" cherry flooring and then sanded and sealed it with several coats of polyurethane. They have been standing up quite well for the last 6 years. Take a look athttp://ownerbuilder.ca/images/20080105-IMG_0192.jpg
>
> What kind of substrate did you attach them to? Did you adhere them with glue? Nails? Both?
>
> Leslie Moyer
> unschooler at lrec.org
> www.ShadyGroveNaturalFarm.com
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110727/e0e51314/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 48
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 08:11:49 -0700
> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] semantics
> Message-ID:
> <CAE5fceD6UMup4GA6L3Da8B69hmR2e-Y3=3TynCGCbq_AcibXJg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> yahbut - referring to a countertop made of edge/vertical grain strips as a
> butcherblock is akin to referring to all bicycles as Penny Farthings, or to
> all chairs as ottomans. The common everyday wooden countertop reimagined or
> rebranded as the now nearly obsolete specialized commercial installation -
> weird.
>
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 7:02 AM, Alan Abrams <alan at abramsdesignbuild.com>wrote:
>
>> language continually evolves...
>>
>> http://www.mapleblock.com/detail/maple-butcher-block-countertops-25/
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/979dcbda/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 49
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:20:37 -0500
> From: "Ktot \(g\)" <ktottotc at gmail.com>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <16C8F987F7F44C7599279C408BFD8C2C at Barb27E1513D96>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Do you have any photos of floors you've done this way? Also what kind of prep will it need to remove the current water-based stain and exterior deck sealer (which I only found out was made for outdoors, not indoors, after the problems began being noticed)?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff Buscher
> To: Green Building
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
> We just used a single application of Earth Paint Rainforest (linseed oil, pine resin, bees wax, and citrus solvent) on a slab. We had it tinted with 200% of the normal amount of pigment that would be normally be used. We didn't do any concrete prep or use any additional sealers. We also scored the slab with a 4' grid pattern and grouted the joints. It has a nice matte leather look and gets a lot of compliments. A lot of people ask if it's some kind of stone.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Anncha <anncha1 at aol.com> wrote:
>
> All the jobs I have been involved in we have only used a sealer once, and it was in a commercial setting. Too shiny, for my personal taste.
> With wax, the floors are matte more looking and grow more beautiful by the year and take on their own patina. One caveat, the first two weeks, the floors are a little slippery, but after that, no worries.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/3160732d/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 50
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:22:48 -0400
> From: Alan Abrams <alan at abramsdesignbuild.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] semantics
> Message-ID:
> <CADj3_s5ov34=pBqWk6k2v-RK5y_jL1wY1HtwOhfw_Rq3+1TNQw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 11:11 AM, Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> yahbut - referring to a countertop made of edge/vertical grain strips as a
>> butcherblock is akin to referring to all bicycles as Penny Farthings, or to
>> all chairs as ottomans. The common everyday wooden countertop reimagined
>> or rebranded as the now nearly obsolete specialized commercial installation- weird.
>>
>>
>
> t'is the invert of "genericide," in which a trademarked name becomes
> generic.
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/bcb65b77/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 51
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:27:20 -0500
> From: "Ktot \(g\)" <ktottotc at gmail.com>
> To: <ArchiLogic at chaffyahoo.ca>, "Green Building"
> <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <CBF5D9279F254DA5AF5E3351BAE8B2E2 at Barb27E1513D96>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
> ***See below...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "RT" <Archilogic at yahoo.ca>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
>> On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 17:56:11 -0400, Ktot (g) <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Talking to various experts, at least 28 days should have been left
>>> between pour and cure.
>
> ***In my case, obviously 11 days was not adequate. One just need look at the
> floor to see that.
>>
>> Either you or the "various experts" are confused because the above
>> statement makes no sense.
>> A look at the strength vs time graph (example shown in link provided in
>> previous message)
>> will quickly illustrate why.
>>
>> There is no assurance that grinding down improperly cured concrete
>> (whether it be with carborundum stones or diamond stones) will yield a
>> better finished surface.
>>
>> If the concrete was crappy concrete (ie compromised mix quality due to
>> addition of water at the site, followed by improper curing) to begin with,
>> grinding away the more dense surface layer (created as a result of the
>> troweling process) is only going to expose more poor quality concrete.
>
> ***NO water was added at the site. The concrete came straight out of the
> concrete truck, as seven pea gravel mix or something like that. I'm sure no
> water was added as none was available--my solar/wind system wasn't in so my
> well wasn't yet working and my contractor did not haul in water other than
> maybe a bit for cleaning tools and the like.
>>
>> Then you'd still have to apply surface treatments in order to make the
>> concrete look and wear like something other than crappy concrete. And
>> since the wear layer would only be a very thin, chemical stew film, it's
>> likely need to be refinished again and again and again over the years.
>
> ***I really do NOT believe the concrete pour or mix itself was at all
> defective. This was a very reputable contractor--just one who doesn't know
> how to react properly when they have perhaps their first failure in stained
> concrete.
>>
>> Why bother with the time, trouble, mess , energy and expense ?
>>
>> I'd cover it over with tile (preferably an unglazed, fully vitrified
>> porcelain or such-like) or stone (not a limestone or marble because
>> they're too soft).
>
> ***I've mentioned several times I'm looking at porcelain tile, in part
> because I'm edgy about going through any more potential disasters with
> concrete. That said, what is "unglazed, fully vitrified porcelain"? I've
> looked at tiles at the various flooring stores, which include those by
> Arizona Tile, Florida Tile, and various other companies. I have no idea what
> unglazed... is nor how to look for it. The stone I've looked at is slate but
> that still will show dog nail scratches so I'm leaning strongly towards
> porcelain. So please explain your term a bit further. Also why you say that
> kind is preferable. Thank you.
>>
>>
>> --
>> === * ===
>> Rob Tom
>> Kanata, Ontario, Canada
>> < A r c h i L o g i c at Y a h o o dot C A >
>> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit REPLY)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 52
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:32:41 -0400
> From: RT <Archilogic at yahoo.ca>
> To: GBioEL <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: SB Yahoos <sb-r-us at yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Greenbuilding] 10 kW solar power plant production
> Message-ID: <op.vzb5grdzt09nld at t60-pc>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed;
> delsp=yes
>
>
> I thought y'all might be interested in seeing some production figures
> [short version] that one of my neighbours sent along after our exchange on
> shearing llamas wandered off into the ozone.
>
> He took advantage of our province's MicroFIT program
>
> http://microfit.powerauthority.on.ca/
>
> to install a 10 kW capacity, ground-mounted solar array a couple of
> winter's ago .
>
> His panels are attached to a 12 metre (40 ft) long horizontal pipe
> oriented with it's long axis running North-South, suspended about 3 metres
> (10 ft) off of the ground.
>
> The pipe rotates to follow the arc of the sun over the course of the day.
>
> This setup is interesting because it outproduces (by as much as 40% on a
> day-to-day basis in winter) an identical-sized, conventionally-oriented
> (ie rectangular array whose long dimension runs East-West) fixed array
> just a few kilometres away.
>
> The Enphase site (in the link below) provides real-time output figures of
> the latter as well as daily, monthly, annual etc.
>
> I had wanted to ask members of this List if they might have some
> suggestions for gizmos which would enable my neighbour to monitor the
> output from his array (and maybe feed it to a spreadsheet program which
> could ultimately plot it in nice multi-coloured graphs) from the comfort
> of his house on his laptop, but the notion slipped my geezer mind,
> repeatedly.
>
>
> ------- Forwarded message -------
> From: [a neighbour]
> To: [me]
> Cc:
> Subject: [not]Re:Llamas spitting
> Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2011 21:57:06 -0400
>
> I compare with Enphase, which sells mini inverters.
> This is their website with daily output figures.
>
> http://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/public/systems/VTTw3026
>
> Today they did 65.2 Kwh, ours did 83.5, a difference of +28 %, a smaller
> difference than most days as we had early morning clouds, which offsets the
> early morning advantage I would normally get with the single axis. I
> notice that Enphase has produced 1.48 MWH so far this month. It sounds
> pretty neat
> in megawatts. I don't know what our would be, but I can assume about 30 %
> more.
>
> Ironically we are benefitting from time of use rates as our axis returns to
> start at 11 am, the lowest rate, so we pay even less of a miniscule charge.
> [snip]
>
>> And if you have a moment some time, I'd be interested in seeing some
>> more of your solar power plant's output figures.
>>
>> Last time, (winter) you mentioned that you were regularly getting up to
>> 40% more than the fixed array in Dunrobin.
>>
>> I'm curious as to how much difference there is during the longer days of
>> summer.
> [snip]
>
> ================ end of forwarded material ==========
>
>
> --
> === * ===
> Rob Tom
> Kanata, Ontario, Canada
> < A r c h i L o g i c at Y a h o o dot C A >
> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit REPLY)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 53
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:39:18 -0500
> From: "Ktot \(g\)" <ktottotc at gmail.com>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <39AEF6A08C65400E9A097964506CFF57 at Barb27E1513D96>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=response
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lynelle Hamilton" <lynelle at lahamilton.com>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 6:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
>> First, let me say you have amazing resilience, given all you've gone
>> through. It was hard enough living in my garage, and I had not gone
>> through the loss of a fire.
>
> ***Thank you. It actually got far worse. I've just gone through a "year from
> hell" but the other aspects have nothing to do with greenbuilding so I'll
> not elaborate on them here. That said, one has to just move forward. One of
> my comments to myself upon finding the fire results (by the way, my only
> nearby neighbors saw smoke 4-5 days and never had the brains to call 911; to
> make things worse they then blamed ME for their stupidity!) was I needed to
> look at this as an opportunity to have the home I really wanted (in spite of
> the fact that I'd lost everything, including irreplaceable things of course,
> and that no way did my insurance cover even half of the rebuild), and I
> could not let the fire destroy me, my health, along with my home. That's
> been my attitude from the start and I will say the new home is pretty
> fantastic (except the floors)--though I really won't be able to test things
> like the solar thermal radiant and passive solar until next winter when I
> get sub-zero temps--and I definitely wouldn't want anyone to go through the
> challenges and problems I've gone through this past year.
>>
>> What I meant was that I wouldn't tile, carpet or lay wood. I'd strip or
>> grind/polish with a new stain. Your new concrete guy is a good one to ask
>> about which is best, given the condition of the floor and the surface the
>> floor has already had applied. FWIW, we tried stuff in the walk in closet
>> first to see, before using the process in the "open" areas. If it were
>> me, I'd try to grind and stain again, partially because I like the finish
>> I get with the grinding, but it is messy. Also, there are many treatments
>> that are meant to be applied over "old" concrete, so make certain your
>> contractor lays out all the options.
>
> ***You refer to my new concrete guy. Problem is I haven't found one I like,
> one who I feel is truly knowledgeable and also creative enough to give me
> beautiful floors.
>>
>> I didn't mean to sound like it took months. The entire process for all
>> the redos took about 3 weeks. The area done was about 2200 sq feet,
>> (including a sun space). It was mid winter, in Ontario Canada, so we had
>> to use electric heat and I was living in my garage. It did seem forever,
>> but it wasn't. My floor had cured, so my experience with the process may
>> be different than yours.
>
> ***The sealer person told me once the sealer is removed, I only need to
> allow a few days for any of the moisture to dry out, and I had figured about
> three weeks start to finish for the redo, so it does sounds somewhat in line
> with your process.
>>
>> I did find (as have visitors) that the small cracks I have, when noticed,
>> contribute to the overall look of stone...rather like fissures. We made
>> the conscious decision to forego expansion joints and expected some
>> cracking.
>
> ***For what it's worth, I've found expansion joints are a waste of time. I
> have horrible deep/wide cracking right where the expansion cuts were made,
> and those cuts were not filled with anything so they're ugly (and not even)
> and trap everything possible. Being a brand new house, and the main floor
> over a garage and basement, I understand settling, but if I'd known I'd get
> such horrible cracking I'd have foregone the expansion joints anyway. Mine
> are not small like yours and do not contribute to the look--just to the
> ugliness.
>>
>> When I was selecting the finish, my guy directed me to
>> http://www.concretenetwork.com It's a great source of ideas and
>> information.
>
> ***Will check it out.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>
> ***All information is useful. Thank you.
>>
>> Lynelle
>>
>> On 27/07/2011 11:32 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>>> I'm not real clear what you're suggesting when you say you wouldn't cover
>>> it with anything. You mean not anything but concrete stain or grinding?
>>> Or you only recommend grinding?
>>>
>>> I have a contractor coming out next week with a grinding/polishing
>>> company rep, as apparently the technique the contractor is familiar with
>>> won't work in my house (he believes) but the rep says there's a new
>>> technique that may work in my house. That said, I cannot go through all
>>> the hassles and time your floors apparently took. I built this new house
>>> after a total fire loss when I was out of state for several weeks last
>>> year. The stress of moving to a new part of my property (for better sun
>>> and wind, and more), getting not just a new house built but also a new
>>> access road, well, septic, solar/wind, etc., and undergoing a winter
>>> build in a very cold climate in the mountains was more stress than I ever
>>> want to go through again. I could not handle having to move out for
>>> several months, redoing the floor several more times, etc.--as it sounds
>>> like might be required with the grinding/polishing technique. As I
>>> mentioned in my original post, I need flooring that 1) provides thermal
>>> mass, 2) is durable, 3) works with radiant heat, 4) is easy to maintain,
>>> 5) will be relatively easy to put in over the defective concrete, 6) fits
>>> in with the contemporary/nature style of my house. (I realize this list
>>> doesn't exactly match what I put in the first email.) So far only
>>> porcelain or natural stone tile seems to fit the bill, but if anyone has
>>> any other suggestions, please let me know. (I'm turning away from natural
>>> stone as it apparently scratches and I have dogs, plus much of it is
>>> irregular so may be hard to keep clean.)
>>>
>>> Also one additional thought: the master bedroom and bathroom don't need
>>> thermal mass as they're on the north and west sides of the house with
>>> minimal windows, so if anyone can recommend something that would look
>>> good with tile elsewhere (if I go that route) and meet requirements 2-6
>>> above, let me know that as well. I've been thinking of keeping everything
>>> the same material, but that probably isn't really necessary.
>>>
>>> Or am I misunderstanding your comments, Lynelle?
>>>
>>> Regardless, I've seen a lot of porcelain tile patterns (in large squares,
>>> not just 12x12) that look great on floors. And after my concrete fiasco I
>>> tend to like the idea of knowing what I'll be getting--though some of the
>>> tiles do come with tremendous variety in their tiles.
>>>
>>> One other problem with concrete is finding a good contractor. I've met
>>> with many, many and really am not impressed with most who are interested
>>> in my job (a few live a couple or more hours away and don't want to come
>>> this far)--for various reasons. In contrast, the tile people seem to
>>> really know what they're doing. Or maybe I'm just too skittish after the
>>> concrete fiasco. I had really trusted the couple I went with, in part due
>>> to her creative/artistic bent. I haven't found similar
>>> creativity/artistry in any of the other concrete people.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynelle Hamilton"
>>> <lynelle at lahamilton.com>
>>> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 8:40 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>>>
>>>
>>>> A few observations. I also have concrete as my finished floor. They
>>>> were not without problems in finishing, and I had a guy who was
>>>> honourable and experienced with all aspects except mechanical polishing
>>>> (at which he was new).
>>>>
>>>> First, there is a white undercoat that can be used here as a base coat
>>>> over concrete to make for a lighter overall colour. This type of
>>>> finish has a coat of colour applied over it and then a sealer. The white
>>>> undercoat is optional. My first set of concrete floors (in my last
>>>> house) were finished without the white, but with the stain and sealer,
>>>> then burnished. We had to wait a minimum of 30 days to apply the stain
>>>> , and that was in August. I certainly had colour variation (looked like
>>>> an old leather bomber jacket), but no white whatsoever and no lifting of
>>>> any stain or finish.
>>>>
>>>> In my current house, I opted for grinding/stain/sealer/mechanical
>>>> polishing. It yields an entirely different finish--sort of like the old
>>>> granite stairs in my high school (not exactly a positive memory, but I
>>>> got over it). We had problems with the finish taking, even though we
>>>> did the grinding and stain 3 months after the pour. We had to grind the
>>>> floors twice--once before the first stain and then again to take it off,
>>>> The second stain looked beautiful but was ruined by an overzealous
>>>> burnishing (by the grinding machine company rep!). We then followed
>>>> what Jason suggested...stripped chemically and reapplied the stain and
>>>> sealer. The results are beautiful. I had some minor fissures, but we
>>>> filled these and they are not noticeable. The grinding created a
>>>> horrible mess here, but I did get through it and (now) would say it was
>>>> worth the hassle.
>>>>
>>>> I'd do what you need to do to get rid of the current finish and start
>>>> again.I wouldn't cover it with anything....you'll pay more and
>>>> ultimately lose mass with anything but tile. If you're like me, the look
>>>> of tile wouldn't cut it either.
>>>>
>>>> My 2 cents' worth (2.12 cents' worth American these days! ;-) )
>>>>
>>>> Lynelle
>>>>
>>>> On 27/07/2011 7:04 PM, Bob Klahn wrote:
>>>>> On 7/27/2011 6:34 PM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>>>>>> Also can you explain more about shot blasting? You say it's more
>>>>>> cost-effective, but how does it compare to grinding as far as time
>>>>>> involved, how much it's going to totally mess up my house, etc.?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't deal with concrete much, but I do know that a variation of
>>>>> shot-blasting, using small beads of frozen CO2 works wonders in other
>>>>> kinds of abrasive cleaning. Much the same as standard shot blasting,
>>>>> albeit somewhat less abrasive, it has the advantage of thermal abrasion
>>>>> and the pellets evaporate, reducing clean up.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't say that it's applicable on concrete, but I'd be surprised if
>>>>> ti didn't have some application.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob Klahn
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>>>
>>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to reach
>>>> me: lynelle at lahamilton.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Effective immediately, please use the following e-mail address to reach
>> me: lynelle at lahamilton.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 54
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:41:48 -0500
> From: "Ktot \(g\)" <ktottotc at gmail.com>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <529A00AB82FE4EA092109797AE07A7D8 at Barb27E1513D96>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Huh? Not at all. New homes settle and concrete cracks. That's not at all the
> real problem. I'd live with the normal cracking as well as the stained
> floors as they came out IF they weren't completely defective due to moisture
> and perhaps other problems. If you saw the white and the peeling, you would
> never say the cracking/settling is the real problem.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nick Pyner" <npyner at tig.com.au>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 7:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org]On
>> Behalf Of Ktot(g)
>>
>>> I have a brand new home (finished mid-May)
>>> concrete (which has been cracking due to the
>> house settling)
>>
>> ____________________________
>>
>> It seems that is what your real problem is. All this talk of stains and
>> tiles is just cosmetic.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick Pyner
>>
>> Dee Why NSW
>> -----
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
>> Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3792 - Release Date: 07/27/11
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 55
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 08:43:34 -0700
> From: Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> To: ArchiLogic at yahoo.ca, Green Building
> <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: SB Yahoos <sb-r-us at yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] 10 kW solar power plant production
> Message-ID:
> <CAE5fceD484krgcJtuN+pMGGvYt=EtYWWKoFpn-t6BV4dg+1QdA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Cool.
>
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 8:32 AM, RT <Archilogic at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>>
>> His panels are attached to a 12 metre (40 ft) long horizontal pipe oriented
>> with it's long axis running North-South, suspended about 3 metres (10 ft)
>> off of the ground.
>>
>> The pipe rotates to follow the arc of the sun over the course of the day.
>>
>
> I'm trying to visualize this array. Does the North end of the pipe angle up
> by XY degrees?
> Or are the individual panels tilted up?
> Is the array 2x26 panels (I got that from the first graphic found at the
> Enphase link)?
> Does the XY angle above change over the course of the year?
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/b2deb551/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 56
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:53:29 -0500
> From: Sacie Lambertson <sacie.lambertson at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID:
> <CAM6L0t5NcwxdMiutH=_YwWS7ur4BDS=pQ2uMUnGJbEgMLeqzoA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Aside from normal settling, wonder how much rebar went into that floor and
> whether the only 2" slab had anything to do with the cracking? We have 3"
> concrete over foam (heat in floor too), that over steel joists, lots of
> joints cut, with minimal and acceptable hairline cracks. Maybe more than
> normal settling too--how are the basement walls? Sacie
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/56c71560/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 57
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:56:43 -0400
> From: Jeff Buscher <jeff.buscher at gmail.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID:
> <CAMozq2O9EAnnJ7-g+cn4LgZq4ANSgLMY0zzL74pW8zGFCgyaCA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Photos:
> http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Avis=B0&Dato=20110519&Kategori=PHOTO23&Lopenr=305190051&Ref=PH&odyssey=mod|galleriespic
>
> The front porch (photos 15 and 16) and the walk-out basement apartment
> floors (starting at photo 62) are both concrete stained/sealed with
> Rainforest. The porch looks like the basement in real life, but the
> lighting makes it look grey in the photos. We left the stain on some
> squares longer than others before we wiped it off to give some color
> variation (photo 72).
>
> The darker colored brick floors and walls in other pictures are compressed
> earth block made from the subsoil on site. The blocks are about 90 lbs/cu
> ft so they are a little less dense than concrete. They have a much lower
> effusivity, so they feel much warmer if you're walking around in socks in
> the winter. They are great for direct gain solar storage. Those floors
> were sealed with a coat of untinted Earth Paint Rainforest, and several
> coats of untinted Earth Paint Mountain (cashew oil + other stuff). The
> brick walls in the stair have not been sealed. That's the natural color of
> the soil.
>
> Also, Ben Pratt was right. I find your tone to be very abrasive, and I
> think you should show more appreciation to the folks on this list. If this
> is the way you talk to everyone, I'm not surprised that you didn't have a
> good experience building your house or getting help when things didn't go
> well.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 11:20 AM, Ktot (g) <ktottotc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> **
>> Do you have any photos of floors you've done this way? Also what kind of
>> prep will it need to remove the current water-based stain and exterior deck
>> sealer (which I only found out was made for outdoors, not indoors, after the
>> problems began being noticed)?
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/712b2e13/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 58
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 11:58:39 -0400
> From: "Ward Edwards" <ward at buildgreen.ca>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>, "Leslie
> Moyer" <lesliemoyer at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Counters
> Message-ID: <op.vzb6n11ntgn5r4 at scanning-pc.rescast.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15; format=flowed;
> delsp=yes
>
> For a substrate, we used 1/2" plywood. The boards were just nailed down
> using a finish nailer with 18 guage finish nails if I remember correctly.
>
> Ward Edwards
>
> On Wed, 27 Jul 2011 14:07:35 -0400, Leslie Moyer <lesliemoyer at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 27, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Ward Edwards wrote:
>>
>>> For our counters we used unfinished 3/4" cherry flooring and then
>>> sanded and sealed it with several coats of polyurethane. They have been
>>> standing up quite well for the last 6 years. Take a look
>>> athttp://ownerbuilder.ca/images/20080105-IMG_0192.jpg
>>
>> What kind of substrate did you attach them to? Did you adhere them with
>> glue? Nails? Both?
>>
>> Leslie Moyer
>> unschooler at lrec.org
>> www.ShadyGroveNaturalFarm.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 59
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:58:55 -0500
> From: Anncha <anncha1 at aol.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
> Message-ID: <65DA6D46-0434-44E4-A057-486B9BE46DC0 at aol.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed";
> DelSp="yes"
>
> Have no idea how to remove what is on there now. Off to work , maybe
> I can find some pictures later.
>
> Anncha
> On Jul 28, 2011, at 10:20 AM, Ktot (g) wrote:
>
>> Do you have any photos of floors you've done this way? Also what
>> kind of prep will it need to remove the current water-based stain
>> and exterior deck sealer (which I only found out was made for
>> outdoors, not indoors, after the problems began being noticed)?
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jeff Buscher
>> To: Green Building
>> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2011 9:45 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Redoing all floors
>>
>> We just used a single application of Earth Paint Rainforest (linseed
>> oil, pine resin, bees wax, and citrus solvent) on a slab. We had it
>> tinted with 200% of the normal amount of pigment that would be
>> normally be used. We didn't do any concrete prep or use any
>> additional sealers. We also scored the slab with a 4' grid pattern
>> and grouted the joints. It has a nice matte leather look and gets a
>> lot of compliments. A lot of people ask if it's some kind of stone.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Anncha <anncha1 at aol.com> wrote:
>> All the jobs I have been involved in we have only used a sealer
>> once, and it was in a commercial setting. Too shiny, for my personal
>> taste.
>> With wax, the floors are matte more looking and grow more
>> beautiful by the year and take on their own patina. One caveat, the
>> first two weeks, the floors are a little slippery, but after that,
>> no worries.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20110728/2cac572f/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 60
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:36:06 -0400
> From: Corwyn <corwyn at midcoast.com>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] semantics
> Message-ID: <4E319E06.4070402 at midcoast.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 7/28/2011 10:02 AM, Alan Abrams wrote:
>> language continually evolves...
>>
>> http://www.mapleblock.com/detail/maple-butcher-block-countertops-25/
>
> It does.
>
> However given that they say this "Wood Welded Maple Butcher Block is the
> most traditional of all Butcher Block products." I don't think they are
> evolving the meaning, I just think they are getting it wrong.
>
> And that's the crux of the matter of evolving language issue isn't it?
> If we don't allow any changes, we can't communicate given the changes in
> the world; If we allow any changes, we can't communicate since there is
> no commonality. So, the metric I use is, is the change beneficial to
> communication. In this instance, perhaps a case can be made. As always
> letting advertisers make these cases is fraught with peril.
>
> Thank You Kindly,
>
> Corwyn
>
>
> --
> Topher Belknap
> Green Fret Consulting
> Kermit didn't know the half of it...
> http://www.greenfret.com/
> topher at greenfret.com
> (207) 882-7652
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 61
> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:32:25 -0400
> From: Clarke Olsen <colsen at fairpoint.net>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: [Greenbuilding] semantics, concrete
> Message-ID: <2A5EEA2E-9A82-4CD5-BC65-4135F61AC85B at fairpoint.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
> Like the way real estate agents presume to sell "homes", when all
> they can really move are houses.
> In political speech, the way "people" have become "folks". "We the
> folks.."?
>
> Concrete story: I did a floor that I stained by adding 250 pounds of
> powdered dye to 19 yds of concrete. Yeah, I had five 50 # bags,
> 1 orange, 2 red, 1 burnt umber, i sienna.... The interesting part is
> this: It didn't seem like enough, because an entrance step,
> cast with the excess, was an uninspiring pink, but the actual floor
> was a nifty terra-cotta! The concrete contractor said it was the
> action of the power trowel which darkened the pigment! Almost totally
> happy with the floor, I went over it (green) with a vibrating
> sander, using a large "ScotchBrite" type pad, to minor, but
> noticeable, effect.
>
> Question: on a recent floor, we decided no stain, just sealer. Is wax
> recommended?
>
> And: blue chalk-line powder makes an interesting concrete dye. In
> quantities too small to turn it blue, it make concrete even
> more like.. concrete. If you like concrete, you'll love concrete
> plus. Kind of pops it out, you might say.
>
>
> Clarke Olsen
> 373 route 203
> Spencertown, NY 12165
> USA
> 518-392-4640
> colsen at fairpoint.net
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 28, 2011, at 1:36 PM, Corwyn wrote:
>
>> On 7/28/2011 10:02 AM, Alan Abrams wrote:
>>> language continually evolves...
>>>
>>> http://www.mapleblock.com/detail/maple-butcher-block-countertops-25/
>>
>> It does.
>>
>> However given that they say this "Wood Welded Maple Butcher Block
>> is the most traditional of all Butcher Block products." I don't
>> think they are evolving the meaning, I just think they are getting
>> it wrong.
>>
>> And that's the crux of the matter of evolving language issue isn't
>> it? If we don't allow any changes, we can't communicate given the
>> changes in the world; If we allow any changes, we can't communicate
>> since there is no commonality. So, the metric I use is, is the
>> change beneficial to communication. In this instance, perhaps a
>> case can be made. As always letting advertisers make these cases
>> is fraught with peril.
>>
>> Thank You Kindly,
>>
>> Corwyn
>>
>>
>> --
>> Topher Belknap
>> Green Fret Consulting
>> Kermit didn't know the half of it...
>> http://www.greenfret.com/
>> topher at greenfret.com
>> (207) 882-7652
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/
>> greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
> End of Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 11, Issue 17
> *********************************************
More information about the Greenbuilding
mailing list