[Greenbuilding] epdm vs. tar geen roof

Mon Aug 29 15:40:02 CDT 2011

By roll down, torch down, or cold applied I mean the asphalt rolls, or
ply bitumen.
I heard torch down was illegal but there must be some exception
because the materials are still sold at the hardware stores and I see
it done a lot. I'm not sure why they do it since cold applied is just
as easy.

Gennaro Brooks-Church

Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA
www.EcoBrooklyn.com
22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 4:22 PM, David Bergman <bergman at cyberg.com> wrote:
> Just a side note: aren't torch down roofs illegal in NYC?
>
> David
>
> At 03:53 PM 8/29/2011, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn wrote:
>
> It is strange you all are saying that torch down rolls are the way to
> go. I was always under the impression that EPDM lasted a lot longer. I
> just called Allied Roofing and they confirmed that the manufacturers
> warranty for roll down is about 20 years and EPDM is about 30 years.
>
> Gennaro Brooks-Church
>
> Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA
> www.EcoBrooklyn.com
> 22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:46 PM, John Straube <jfstraube at gmail.com> wrote:
>> My experience with pricing is different John.
>> Orifice choke valves on roof drains do a good job and are a couple hundred
>> bucks per drain.
>> The premium for a green roof is at least $10 per square foot plus any
>> additional structure cost. That often shows up as a lot of money.
>> Storm water management of parking lots is a different beast.
>>
>> Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "JOHN SALMEN" <terrain at shaw.ca>
>> Sender: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 09:18:41
>> To: 'Green Building'<greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>; 'Rob
>> Tom'<Archilogic at yahoo.ca>
>> Reply-To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] epdm vs. tar geen roof
>>
>> I would agree about 2 ply bitumen as a decent option at least from
>> durability and recycled content. I disagree about simpler methods for
>> stormwater retention - which is probably one of the most redeeming
>> features
>> of a green roof (adding stormwater quality to that). Most other methods
>> are
>> ground invasive and require a different and costly level of engineering
>> and
>> technology (even a good porous parking lot is difficult to do well).
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> [ mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of John
>> Straube
>> Sent: August-29-11 8:32 AM
>> To: Rob Tom; Green Building
>> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] epdm vs. tar geen roof
>>
>> Practical experience with EPDM roofs is that they do not have great
>> durability.  This is one reason they, and TPO, are almost never used in
>> green roofs. I would also assume you would be specifying a protected
>> membrane roof in any case you care about durability.  Worry about which
>> membrane uses more or less oil or energy seems completely misplaced if
>> there
>> is a trade off with durability which there will be with roofing products.
>> Pick the most durable, or nearly the most durable, roof membrane and save
>> environmental impact on the life-cycle.
>> Tar roof is not sufficiently specific to make judgements.  There are many
>> types.
>> I would always recommend either a two-ply modified bitumen roof, or liquid
>> applied glass matt reinforced hot rubberized asphalt if all you cared
>> about
>> was durability.
>>
>> Speaking of cooking the books, Dr Lui's report, like most you will find,
>> over sell the performance benefits of green roofs.  They do this by
>> comparing an excellent green roof design with the dumbest low slope roof
>> we
>> know how to build (an exposed membrane black roof).   A fair comparison is
>> to compare a green roof to a protect membrane roof (PMR) with white balast
>> (pavers or river rock).  When this is done the energy savings and
>> durability
>> benefits of a green roof essentially vanish.  The benefits of dust
>> removal,
>> stormwater retention remain.  There are cheaper ways to retain stormwater
>> than a green roof.  The reason for a green roof is mostly because they are
>> beautiful to look at relative to the options, and in intensely urban areas
>> they add to biodiversity (they don't do much in rural settings).
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2011-08-29, at 10:20 AM, RT wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 23:13:45 -0400, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn
>> <info at ecobrooklyn.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> So....over 30 years.
>>>> Tar roof - $40, more petro chemicals consumed, more waster created.
>>>> EPDM + green roof - $40,
>>>
>>>> Your thoughts? How do my numbers look?
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd say that the numbers look like they were "cooked" by someone who
>>> might
>> have done creative book-keeping for Tony Soprano et al.
>>>
>>> But aside from that, all or most of the benefits in the comparison are
>>> due
>> to the Green Roof component and a Green Roof can be installed over any
>> waterproof membrane and provide the same benefits.
>>>
>>> Without actually checking the actual numbers (not my job, eh ?) I have a
>> gut feeling that the embodied-energy of a hot-mopped tar membrane is lower
>> than that of an EPDM.
>>>
>>> But using Gennaro's numbers for life expectancy -- 30 years -- I'd say
>> that that's pretty ?!$$-poor performance (PPPP or 4P).
>>>
>>> Any Greenie worth their chlorophyll would shun asphalt shingles as a
>> sloped roofing option largely because of their short service life (30
>> years
>> max) and their high waste factor (ie not recyclable for the most part) so
>> it's curious that one would consider a 30-year tar or EPDM membrane as
>> viable options for a flat roof.
>>>
>>> That is to say, perhaps third, fourth or fifth non-petro options might be
>> considered for the membrane (the Green Roof being a "given" if for no
>> other
>> reason, because it extends the life of the membrane, like IRMAs).
>>>
>>> The other benefits are quantified in Dr. Karen Lui's report (if the IRC
>>> at
>> NRC) which I've cited here numerous times in the past.
>>>
>>> --
>>> === * ===
>>> Rob Tom
>>> Kanata, Ontario, Canada
>>> < A r c h i L o g i c  at  Y a h o o  dot  c a >
>>> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "reply")
>>>
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>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
>> gylists.org
>>
>> Dr John Straube, P.Eng.
>> Associate Professor
>> University of Waterloo
>> Dept of Civil Eng. & School of Architecture
>> www.buildingscience.com
>>
>>
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> David Bergman  RA   LEED AP
> DAVID BERGMAN ARCHITECT / FIRE & WATER LIGHTING + FURNITURE
> architecture . interiors . ecodesign . lighting . furniture
> bergman at cyberg.com    www.cyberg.com
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