[Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 17

Wed Oct 6 23:25:19 CDT 2010

G'day All,

First of all I keep telling people I am just Mr, but thanks for the honour.

Second, although I am "moderator" of this list it is actually an unmoderated
list, so I don't check each message (if I had to check each message it would
slow discussion somewhat and I would get very little other work done). I see
my main job as "cooling things" when discussion occasionally gets a bit
heated and helping people with difficulties like joining or posting.

Third remember that the membership is very varied, and I think this is one
of the strengths of the group. There are biologists who can name the
bacteria but may not be good at numbers, engineers who don't care how
digestion works but can calculate things, "back yard" size operators and
commercial operators and people from simple rural backgrounds as well as
those from advanced technologies and we can all help each other.

In theory (thanks to Dr David Fulford) 1 kg of sugar gives 865 litres of
biogas, so Dr Karves figures are ballpark. This will provide 0.27kW
continuous power at 100% efficiency (70% methane, 39MJ/m3 for those who need
to check!) or about 50 W electricity (this is at 20% efficiency) - this is
where the figures may diverge but we need to make sure we are talking about
the same thing (you may be able to run a 1 kW generator for an hour but it
may be at no load).

There was a discussion a while back on the old list about standardising
terms, which I have transferred to
http://biogas.wikispaces.com/Data+to+measure, so let's all try to use the
same terminology.

There are some good points made in most of the posts (I am only skimming
through the longer ones as I am meant to be marking essays) so let's try to
be diplomatic and helpful (as is usually the case).

Happy digesting,

HOOROO

Mr. Paul Harris, Room S116b, Waite Main Building Faculty of Sciences, The
University of Adelaide, Waite Campus, PMB 1, Glen Osmond SA 5064 Ph    : +61
8 8303 7880      Fax   : +61 8 8303 4386
<mailto:paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au> mailto:paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au
<http://www.adelaide.edu.au/directory/paul.harris>
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From: digestion-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
[mailto:digestion-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Sumedh
Bapat
Sent: Thursday, 7 October 2010 2:03 PM
To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 17

Dear Srinivas,

Sometimes it really surprises me weather we really know what we are talking
about in this list. 50% TS is a wrong postulation. You will never get more
than 25% TS in fresh food waste. Also as asked before by me, please explain
how will you get so much gas by practical experience and support it by
theory. These ridiculous statements are made to market the Biogas plants of
a particular type and not to promote the biogas industry. This is an utterly
selfish motive. 

When I joined this list, I had an impression that this is not a Biogas
product marketing platform but a 100% academic platform. I can see that some
members are purely mailing on this list  I wonder how Dr.Paul Harris allows
such communication on this list without taking any kind of objection to it.
When i had emailed my objections to such things in the past, someone had
claimed that put sugar and it gets degraded in 24 hours. I agree to it but
is it practically affordable to do such acticities. People talk about wheat
flour for biogas plants. please explain how can this be possible in
practical sense. Wont it be affordable to use LPG for making tea rather than
putting 1 Kg sugar in the biogas plant ? Is any technology a good technology
unless it is practically anc commercially viable ? What sense does it make
when people postulate gas generation figures on food waste and when you try
to question them, they support it with gas from sugar or flour ? Please ask
this question to yourself before you support such ridiculous statements
here, specially developed only from the sales and marketing perspective.
Please do not add about what your product is and please help keep this site
only academic or else this site will also become a rat race for product
salesmen. Had I wanted to do this, we would have started putting putting up
my presentations here and also started marketing our larger plants of 1-5
tons that we have done in India so far.

These are my personal opinions and suggestions.

Kind Regards,

Sumedh Bapat

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 2:56 PM, <digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>
wrote:

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: 1. Re: Inoculation for Small Digesters (Alexander Eaton)
  2. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based
     research and questions (Anand Karve)
  3. Re: size and cost of a small domestic biogas plant (Duncan Martin)
  4. Re: Eliminating Sulfides. (Igor ?krjanec)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 10:45:18 -0600
From: Alexander Eaton <alex at sistemabiobolsa.com>
To: For discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
       <digestion at listserv.repp.org>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] 1. Re: Inoculation for Small Digesters
Message-ID:
       <AANLkTikAsjbvk4LOv5GLvgPkz9rt0Xop6OBUUqdDpnye at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Thanks Peter.  This is how this thread started: we use paunch manure from
the first unit, but it is a stinky job, and not super easy to transport.
This is only an issue as we are ramping our installations up to 5-10 per
week.  I was hoping to find a comparably effective method that maybe
cultured the same bacteria, or at least concentrated the stomach material.
Any thoughts?

A

On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 5:56 AM, P M Allison
<pmallison at optusnet.com.au>wrote:

> For an excellent AD starter culture I have used the contents of a freshly
> slaughtered cow's stomach, preferably the first unit which contains the
> methano-bacteria, rather than the others.
> I have also trialed septic tank biological cultures in dried and pelleted
> forms as long as anaerobes are part of the cultural mix.
> Peter.
> ____________________________________
> Digestion mailing list
> Digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
sts.org
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> http://info.bioenergylists.org <http://info.bioenergylists.org/> 
>

--
Alexander Eaton
Sistema Biobolsa
IRRI-Mexico

Mex cel: (55) 11522786
US cel: 970 275 4505

alex at sistemabiobolsa.com
alexanderb.eaton at gmail.com
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www.irrimexico.org <http://www.irrimexico.org/> 
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 08:47:18 +0800
From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
To: paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au, For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
       <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More
       scientific based research and questions
Message-ID:
       <AANLkTikiegvQRR3HowhYq5PM6hXsws+vrR6bH57PXCCo at mail.gmail.com
<mailto:AANLkTikiegvQRR3HowhYq5PM6hXsws%2BvrR6bH57PXCCo at mail.gmail.com> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Dear Hooroo,
our ARTI biogas system produces about 800 litres or 0.8 cubic meters biogas
from 1 kg (dry weight) of food waste. It takes about 500 litres (0.5 cubic
m) to generate one kW electricity, if one uses an internal combustion engine
to drive the generator.  The article reproduced by you says that 3 tons of
food waste produces enough power to provide electricity to 25 houses for a
day. Assuming that the food waste mentioned in the article has about 50%
water, the three tons are reduced to a dry weight of 1.5 tons, which would
produce, in a single phase ARTI biogas plant, about 1,200,000 litres or 1200
cubic meters of biogas, enough to generate about 2400 kW electricity. It is
unfortunate that the article reproduced by you does not give figures, but I
thnk that with food waste as rqw material, the ARTI biogas system might turn
out to be more efficient in converting food waste into biogas. There are
also factual mistakes in the article reproduced by you. It says that there
are no methane producing bacteria in the human gut. This is not true. The
methanogens are found in the guts of all animals. I also question the
concept of a series of organisms converting cellulose to starch to sugar to
organic acids to acetic acid to methane. An organism needs extra-cellular
digestion only in the case of cellulose. Once it gets converted into
glucose, it is taken into the cell and metabolised to the end by one and the
same micro-organism.
Yours
A.D.Karve

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 6:08 AM, Paul Harris
<paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au>wrote:

>  G?day All,
>
>
>
> A couple of people have asked for the attachment to an article I reposted
> for Dhanesh Kumar [daquab4u at gmail.com]. I left it off thinking it had
> exceeded the Listserver size limit but will try again.
>
>
>
> Happy Digesting,
>
> HOOROO
> Turning Trash Into Power
> Biological Engineers Generate Natural Gas with Bacteria
>
> *October 1, 2006* ? A new kind of waste digester uses two different
> strains of bacteria in different tanks. This would normally take place in
> the same environment, but microbiologists have now separated it into two
> stages that increases natural-gas production. The technology increases
> efficiency and can turn three tons of food scraps into enough energy to
> power 25 homes for a day.
>  ------------------------------
>
> *See also:*
>
> *Plants & Animals* <http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/plants_animals/>
>
>    - Extreme
Survival<http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/plants_animals/extreme_survival/>
>    - Bacteria <http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/plants_animals/bacteria/>
>
> *Earth & Climate* <http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/earth_climate/>
>
>    - Energy and the
Environment<http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/earth_climate/energy/>
>    - Renewable
Energy<http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/earth_climate/renewable_energy/>
>
> *Matter & Energy* <http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/matter_energy/>
>
>    -
Electricity<http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/matter_energy/electricity/>
>    - Organic
Chemistry<http://www.sciencedaily.com/news/matter_energy/organic_chemistry/>
>
> *Reference* <http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/>
>
>    -
Biodegradation<http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/b/biodegradation.htm>
>    - Waste
management<http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/w/waste_management.htm>
>    - Biomass <http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/b/biomass.htm>
>    - Sewage
treatment<http://www.sciencedaily.com/articles/s/sewage_treatment.htm>
>
> DAVIS, Calif. -- There's a new twist on the old adage, one man's trash is
> another man's treasure. Now that trash may be another man's power.
> Researchers in California are turning garbage into bio-gas that may one
day
> provide the electricity in your home.
>
> Trash could soon be powering your home. A new digester can transform it
> into energy. It uses two strains of bacteria to convert waste into
bio-gas.
> Most digesters store both bacteria in the same tank, which makes the
process
> unpredictable and slow. But not this digester.
>
> "Zhang's process takes the two bacteria and separates them into two
> separate environments," Dave Konwinski, the director of OnSite Power
Systems
> in Davis, Calif., tells DBIS.
>
> This new and improved digester is the brain child of Biological Engineer
> Ruihong Zhang. She and her students at UC Davis first built its prototype
in
> the lab. She's thrilled her new technology is being put to use in the real
> world.
>
> "It's a new technology ... So it's like a child grow into adult," she
says.
>
>
> The digester will turn three tons of food scraps into energy for 25 houses
> a day. But it's not just for homes. The digester could be especially
useful
> to fuel processing plants. It s scheduled to be up and running this fall.
> OnSite Power Systems plans to market it in several states in the next
couple
> of years, including California, Wisconsin and Minnesota.
>
> "We can actually scale a digester to fit their current operations, fill it
> right at their operations, take the waste stream into the digester, and
the
> energy right back into the plant," Konwinski says. "It will make a
> substantial dent in our current energy requirement for petroleum."
>
> It's a win-win-win situation for the environment, industry and consumers.
>
> *BACKGROUND:* Environmental engineers at the University of California,
> Davis, are building a full-scale anaerobic digester that can convert any
> type of solid organic waste into electricity -- even leftovers from
> restaurants. The system is part of the $100,000 Sacramento Municipal
Utility
> District (SMUD pilot project), but an even larger digester system is being
> put into place in San Francisco.
>
> *HOW IT WORKS:* In the process, food waste is collected from restaurants
> and institutions and then fed to bacteria that thrive in low-oxygen
> environments. It's called anaerobic digestion, a naturally occurring
process
> of decomposition. One type of bacteria turns carbohydrates into simple
> sugars, amino acids and fatty acids. A second group of bacteria eats those
> compounds and turns them into hydrogen gas, carbon dioxide, and acetic
acid
> -- the primary component of vinegar. Then a third group of bacteria takes
> those broken-down compounds and turns them into methane and carbon
dioxide.
> Between 60 and 80 percent becomes methane. The methane can be used as fuel
> for an internal combustion engine that provides electricity.
>
> *TYPES OF DIGESTION:* Anaerobic digestion is not the same thing as human
> digestion, since the type of bacteria that produce methane don't live in
the
> human digestive tract. Industrial anaerobic digesters can also harness
this
> natural process to treat waste, provide heat, and increase nutrients in
> soil. They are most commonly used for sewage treatment and for managing
> animal waste.
>
> *BENEFITS:* The goal of SMUD is to obtain 20 percent of its electricity
> from renewable sources such as wind, solar, and biodegradable matter by
> 2011. Currently SMUD derives 10 percent of its electricity from renewable
> sources, of which biomass accounts for 2.5 percent. The UC-Davis digester
> would keep food and other biodegradable waste out of landfills; food
> leftovers account for 18 percent of a landfill's contents. One tone of
> leftover food can produce enough fuel to power 18 homes for one day.
>
> *WHAT ARE EXTREMOPHILES?* An extremophile is any microbe that thrives in
> extreme conditions, such as temperature (extreme heat or cold), pressure,
> salinity, low oxygen environments, or high concentrations of hostile
> chemicals. Most extremophiles belong to a class known as archaeobacteria,
> but certain species of worm, crustacean and krill can also be considered
> extremophiles.
>
> *The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers,
Inc.<http://www.ieeeusa.org/>,
> contributed to the information contained in the TV portion of this report.
> *
>
>
>
> [image:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/images/ivanhoe.gif]<http://www.ivanhoe.com/ftk>
>
> *Note:** This story and accompanying video were originally produced for
> the American Institute of Physics series Discoveries and Breakthroughs in
> Science <http://www.aip.org/dbis/> by Ivanhoe Broadcast News and are
> protected by copyright law. All rights reserved.*
>
>
>
> Ads by
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> Related Stories
> ------------------------------
>
> *New 'Digester' Converts Garbage To
Energy<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041012093158.htm>
> * (October 12, 2004) ? UC Davis bioenvironmental engineer Ruihong Zhang
> sees a vast untapped resource in lawn clippings, household table scraps
and
> other biodegradable materials: enough energy to keep the lights burning in
> ...  > *read
more*<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/10/041012093158.htm>
>
> [image:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/images/2010/04/100414083539-thumb.jpg]<http://ww
w.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100414083539.htm>
> *New Super Bacterium Doubles Hydrogen Gas
Production<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100414083539.htm>
> * (April 14, 2010) ? Hydrogen gas is today used primarily for
> manufacturing chemicals, but a bright future is predicted for it as a
> vehicle fuel in combination with fuel cells. In order to produce hydrogen
> gas in a way ...  > *read
more*<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100414083539.htm>
>
> *Synthesizing Gas, Making
Energy<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070911155512.htm>
> * (September 12, 2007) ? A way to convert natural gas into raw materials
> for the chemical industry and generate power as a by-product could lead to
> more environmental benign manufacturing processes. Making synthesis gas --
a
> ...  > *read
more*<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070911155512.htm>
>
> *Sweet Smell Of Success: New UF System Helps Dairy Farms Reduce
Odors<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/11/001122183221.htm>
> * (November 24, 2000) ? With hundreds or thousands of cows eating,
> drinking and, well, doing what cows do naturally, dairy farms have earned
a
> reputation for bad odors. Combine that with urban sprawl that brings city
> ...  > *read
more*<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/11/001122183221.htm>
>
> *Storing Green Electricity as Natural
Gas<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100505113227.htm>
> * (May 5, 2010) ? Renewable electricity can be transformed into a
> substitute for natural gas. Until now, electricity was generated from gas.
> Now, a German-Austrian cooperation wants to go in the opposite direction.
In
> ...  > *read
more*<http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100505113227.htm>
>  Search ScienceD <http://www.sciencedaily.com/subscribe/>
>
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--
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Dr. A.D. Karve
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)

*Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 08:05:22 +0100
From: Duncan Martin <duncanjmartin at gmail.com>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
       <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] size and cost of a small domestic biogas
       plant
Message-ID:
       <AANLkTimykuvh_x2D7jhcpZz0sfXF=QWPM4EkEwJM+aeS at mail.gmail.com
<mailto:QWPM4EkEwJM%2BaeS at mail.gmail.com> >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

A typo I think - or has the Law of Conservation of Mass been repealed?

" Using daily 1 kg (dry weight) food waste produces daily about 700 to 800
kg biogas" !

Maybe 7-800 litres?

Duncan Martin
Cloughjordan Ecovillage
Ireland

On 4 October 2010 07:47, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Members,
> this question was raised in a recent flurry of messages. Instead of
> repeating them, I  wish to state the following:
>  Using daily 1 kg (dry weight) food waste produces daily about 700 to 800
> kg biogas, which most small families (4 to 5 persons) find quite adequate
> for cooking all their meals. Our biogas plant has a digester of 1000
litres
> and a moving drum type of a gas holder having a capacity of about 750
> litres. The  cost of complete biogas plant is about US$200, if it is
> manufactured according instructions contained in our video which can be
> downloaded from our web site www.arti-india.org
<http://www.arti-india.org/>  by paying us US$10 through
> Pay Pal. The matter was also discussed if yeast had beneficial effect on
> biogas production. Frankly, I do not see why and how yeast should benefit
> the process. Yeast would actually act as a competitor of the methanogens
in
> that the sugar that would normally have produced biogas, would be used by
> the yeast in producing alcohol. It is likely that alcohol can act as
> substrate for the methanogens (glycerin, which is an alcohol,  can be used
> by the methanogens as a substrate), but a lot of energy would be wasted in
> this process in comparison to obtaining methane directly from the sugars
by
> using the methanogens.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
> --
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Message: 4
Date: Wed, 06 Oct 2010 11:25:47 +0200
From: Igor ?krjanec <igor.skrjanec at gmail.com>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
       <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Eliminating Sulfides.
Message-ID: <4CAC409B.9010903 at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; Format="flowed"

 Na 5.10.2010 23:57, Ken Calvert je pisal:
> Igor,  to my way of thinking, the use of ferric chloride is expensive,
> because it is difficult to recover out of the system and you have to
> keep buying more.  I am not sure quite where you intend to use it?  If
> you are adding it to the input into the digester  it will settle
> inside and gradually clog your system.   For me, the best filter
> system is
> a heavy steel, or a plastic drum  filled with bashed up rusty tin
> cans.  Make sure they are rusty, because new ones are still coated
> with a varnish that they use instead of the old tin plate.  Place the
> iron oxide filter between the digester and the flexy gas bag for
> storage.  This makes for an even rate of flow with enough moisture in
> the gas to activate the reaction.  The H2S in the gas reacts with the
> metalic iron or iron oxide and makes iron sulfide.   When nearly all
> the oxide has gone, and the only way to be really sure is to have two
> drums in parallel and switch from one to the other at regular
> intervals,  all that is required to regenerate that drum is to open it
> to the air.
> In the presence of oyygen ferrous sulfide reverts to metalic iron and
> elemental sulfur, along with the evolution of a lot of heat  With a
> heavy steel drum that is no problem, you just hook a small blower onto
> one outlet.   With a plastic drum its a case of just opening the inlet
> and outlet .and positioning the drum in such a way that the heat will
> cause a convention flow of hot air.  And if the drum gets too hot
> reduce the air current.  With all the iron back into its metalic state
> the drum is ready for recycle, until there is so much flowers of
> sulfur that every thing gets clogged up.    ATB.  Ken C.
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Igor ?krjanec <mailto:igor.skrjanec at gmail.com>
>     *To:* For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>     <mailto:digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>     *Sent:* Wednesday, October 06, 2010 12:55 AM
>     *Subject:* Re: [Digestion] (no subject)
>
>     Na 4.10.2010 20:15, Arturo ?valos je pisal:
>>
>>     Hello all
>>
>>     Does someone know something about use ferric chloride to reduce
>>     the sulfur content in the biogas?
>>
>>     Thanks for the information
>>
>>     //
>>
>>     Arturo
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Digestion mailing list
>>     Digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
sts.org
>
>     Hallo Arturo
>
>
>     Ferric chloride is normally use for a neutralizations of H_2 S.
>     Hydrogen sulfide is slightly soluble in water and acts as a weak
>     acid <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_acid>, because of this is
>     harmful for a CHP unit.
>
>     H_2 S is a product of sulfate-reducing bacteria
>     <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfate-reducing_bacteria> which are
>     also present in biogas reactor. Sulfate-reducing bacteria
>     <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfate-reducing_bacteria> use
>     present sulfats from substrates to oxidize the organic matter.
>
>     Hydrogen sulfide reacts with metal ions to form metal sulfides
>     <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfide> (H_2 S + FeCl_2 ? FeS + 2
>     HCl). Iron sulfide is not soluble and it is not problematic for a
>     biogas process and CHP unit.
>
>     When biogas plant works normally hydrogen sulfide is not
>     problematic, because of its oxidation with aerobic bacteria to
>     elementary sulphur.
>
>
>     Bye
>
>     Igor
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Hello Ken,

In Europe we use ferric chloride only in start-up. After month or two
you don?t need FeCL_2 anymore, because we blowing into reactor small
quantity of air. This is obligatory for aerobic bacteria which convert
H_2 S in to elemental sulfur. This method is also efficient, cheap and
easy to handle.

Normally you need for 1 MW biogas plant around 0,5 m^3 FeCl_2. Because
of low quantity of FeCL_2 we don?t haw any problems with sediment FeS
and also this low concentracion of FeS are welcom as a fertilizer.

Igor

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