[Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40

Markus Schlattmann firmen at schlattmann.de
Mon Oct 25 01:57:46 PDT 2010


Hi,

when you compare the yields based on fresh mass, are you sure you're 
talking about the same "dung"?

Here in Central Europe cattle often are kept in stables leading to 
liquid (~8%TS) manure.
In India perhaps "dung" is "dried dung"?
Generally, for comapring gas yields of substrates it's better to compare 
gas yields based on VS, not fresh matter, since water content may vary a 
lot.

I can't think that there's a production of 18 times more biogas if we 
are talking about comparable dung. You may calculate/estimate a 
C-Balance. If there's one loading, you can't get more C in CH4/CO2 out 
of the system than you have put into it with the substrate/inoculum in 
the beginning.

Markus Schlattmann




Am 24.10.2010 11:31, schrieb Anand Karve:
> Dear Mr. Bapat,
> the biogas plant in Wardha, which accepts 1000 kg cattle dung as a 
> one-time load and produces daily 3 cubic meter biogas continuously 
> over a period of 180 days, was an absolutely novel system to me. In 
> fact that is why I reported it, because I felt that somebody in the AD 
> discussion group maight know more about it. Since neither the British 
> scientists nor any of the Indian scientists present there could give a 
> scientific explanation to this phenomenon, I have ventured a 
> plausible explanation. The Archaea are a very ancient group of 
> organisms. Lignin is produced by green plants, which evolved much 
> later. Therefore the methanogens cannot digest lignin. The fact that 
> in Wardha, this particular biogas plant was producing almost 18 times 
> as much biogas as would be expected, can be explained by the 
> assumption that lignin was being digested by some other organisms and 
> the products of the lignin digesting organisms were being made 
> available to the mehanogens. But the speculation that some species of 
> organisms conduct extra-cellular digestion of cellulose or lignin, and 
> make the products of such digestion available to the methanogens, is 
> not acceptable to me, because if such were really the case, one would 
> have used such organisms to produce sugars from lignocellulosic 
> material and then obtained alcohol from these sugars. Since nobody has 
> succeeded in doing this, I feel that the organisms that digest 
> cellulose or lignin consume the sugars themselves and multiply their 
> own numbers, and that the methanogens consume these microbes to 
> produce methane. I am ready to accept any other explanation, if it is 
> logical.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Sumedh Bapat <sumedh.bapat at gmail.com 
> <mailto:sumedh.bapat at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Dear Dr. Karve,
>     I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the
>     discrepancy in the information you have provided here..
>     */ on October 17 you said : /*
>     "In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms
>     do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of
>     other organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the
>     food of the methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to
>     a field is human food, because through a number of biological
>     processes it ultimately ends up into products, which the humans eat."
>     */on October 24 you said : /*
>     "According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have
>     produced about 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But this
>     particular biogas plant produces 540 cubic meters of it."
>
>     I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow dung.
>     Now it can be seen that you claim that some other plant is
>     generating 540 times more gas than your plants.
>     Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by
>     Methanogens which have consumed other similar organisms from the
>     biogas plant , which in turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?
>     Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold
>     increase from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?
>     /Again/ _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?
>     Kind Regards,
>     Sumedh Bapat
>
>     On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM,
>     <digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>     <mailto:digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>> wrote:
>
>         Send Digestion mailing list submissions to
>         digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
>         <mailto:digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
>         To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>         or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>         <mailto:digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
>         You can reach the person managing the list at
>         digestion-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
>         <mailto:digestion-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>
>         When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
>         specific
>         than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."
>
>
>         Today's Topics:
>
>           1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based
>              research and questions (Anand Karve)
>
>
>         ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         Message: 1
>         Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800
>         From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com>>
>         To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>         <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
>         <mailto:digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
>         Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More
>                scientific based research and questions
>         Message-ID:
>         <AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@mail.gmail.com
>         <http://mail.gmail.com/>>
>         Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>         Dear Dr. Martin,
>         I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I
>         attended a workshop
>         arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the
>         Department of
>         Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20
>         scientists each from
>         UK and India were invited to this meeting.
>         In the course of field visits organised during the workshop,
>         Dr. Soham
>         Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages, an NGO
>         in Wardha,
>         showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This biogas
>         plant accepts
>         about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces
>         daily about 3
>         cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of about
>         180 days.  This
>         is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using funds
>         from the
>         Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed a
>         similar biogas
>         plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time load
>          of 1000 kg
>         dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an
>         electricity
>         generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric lighting
>         to all the
>         houses in the village.  Officials of the Department of Science and
>         Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims. According
>         to text book
>         knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000
>         litres (or 30
>         cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant
>         produces 540 cubic
>         meters of it.
>         Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a
>         scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of
>         biogas. Dung of
>         Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins and
>         midribs of the
>         grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms. One
>         has to assume
>         in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that feed on
>         the lignin
>         and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.
>         Yours
>         A.D.Karve
>
>         On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin
>         <duncanjmartin at gmail.com <mailto:duncanjmartin at gmail.com>>wrote:
>
>         > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?
>         >
>         > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because
>         they need help
>         > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the
>         point I was
>         > responding to - that the digestion process is not *completed
>         *by the act
>         > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of
>         the gut in
>         > question.
>         >
>         > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that
>         microbes are
>         > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well
>         established and
>         > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex
>         web of metabolic
>         > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is
>         pretty well
>         > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.
>         >
>         > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that
>         the methanogens
>         > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a
>         proposed
>         > mechanism.
>         >
>         > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous
>         postings) is unhelpful,
>         > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every
>         one of them? Of
>         > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if
>         only because
>         > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there
>         are indeed some
>         > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who
>         would take them
>         > as serious guides to the science?
>         >
>         > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report
>         them - giving
>         > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the
>         field by dismissing
>         > every other source of information as rubbish.
>         >
>         > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his
>         opinion - but
>         > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical
>         experience and
>         > evidence-based information.
>         >
>         > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.
>         >
>         > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI
>         > Cloughjordan Ecovillage
>         > Ireland
>         >
>         > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com
>         <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com>> wrote:
>         >
>         >> Dear Duncan,
>         >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms,
>         with one
>         >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another
>         converting the
>         >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still
>         another converting
>         >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic
>         acid being
>         >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide
>         and methane. If
>         >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism
>         that converted
>         >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce
>         alcohol. Cellulose is
>         >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world
>         and with this
>         >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity
>         of liquid fuel.
>         >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is
>         achieved in any
>         >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted
>         from a
>         >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the
>         glucose converted by
>         >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same
>         organism. And once it is
>         >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all
>         the way down to
>         >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal
>         cannot be
>         >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and
>         suply it to the
>         >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume
>         the fellow
>         >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to
>         produce methane and
>         >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in
>         the soil supplied
>         >> with organic matter.
>         >>         In any case, once it is accepted that the
>         methanogenic organisms
>         >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help
>         of other
>         >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the
>         food of the
>         >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to a
>         field is human food,
>         >> because through a number of biological processes it
>         ultimately ends up into
>         >> products, which the humans eat.
>         >> Yours
>         >> A.D.Karve
>         >>   On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin
>         <duncanjmartin at gmail.com <mailto:duncanjmartin at gmail.com>
>         >> > wrote:
>         >>
>         >>>
>         >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the
>         animal eats.
>         >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet
>         is derived from
>         >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow
>         are surrounded by
>         >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest
>         them. They live on the
>         >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of
>         metabolic
>         >>> interactions is well known.
>         >>>
>         >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung
>         cannot serve as
>         >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of
>         the body along
>         >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.
>         >>>
>         >>>
>         >>>
>         >> _______________________________________________
>         >> Digestion mailing list
>         >>
>         >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>         >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>         <mailto:Digestion at bioenergylists.org>
>         >>
>         >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>         >>
>         >>
>         http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>         >>
>         >> for more information about digestion, see
>         >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>         >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>         >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>         >>
>         >>
>         >>
>         >
>         > _______________________________________________
>         > Digestion mailing list
>         >
>         > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>         > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>         <mailto:Digestion at bioenergylists.org>
>         >
>         > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>         >
>         >
>         http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>         >
>         > for more information about digestion, see
>         > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>         > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>         > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>         >
>         >
>         >
>
>
>         --
>         ***
>         Dr. A.D. Karve
>         President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
>         *Please change my email address in your records to:
>         adkarve at gmail.com <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com> *
>         -------------- next part --------------
>         An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>         URL:
>         <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20101024/49a74dc6/attachment-0001.html>
>
>         ------------------------------
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         Digestion mailing list
>
>         to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>         Digestion at bioenergylists.org <mailto:Digestion at bioenergylists.org>
>
>         to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>         http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>         for more information about digestion, see
>         Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>         http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>         and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
>
>
>         End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
>         ****************************************
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Digestion mailing list
>
>     to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>     Digestion at bioenergylists.org <mailto:Digestion at bioenergylists.org>
>
>     to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>     http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>     for more information about digestion, see
>     Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>     http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>     and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com 
> <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com> *
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digestion mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>


-- 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Markus Schlattmann

--------------------------------------
schlattmann sustainables
schlattmann.de

Dipl.-Ing. agr. Markus Schlattmann
Grünseiboldsdorfer Weg 5
85416 Langenbach

Tel.: +49 (0)8761 72162-60
Fax.: +49 (0)8761 72162-61

E-Mail: firmen at schlattmann de
Web:www.schlattmann.de
-------------------------------------

Die Informationen in dieser E-Mail und im Anhang sind vertraulich und
nur für den/die benannten Empfänger bestimmt. Öffnen, Nutzen oder
Verbreiten durch unautorisierte Personen ist untersagt. Falls Sie nicht
der Empfänger oder eine entsprechend autorisierte Person sind,
informieren Sie bitte den Absender und vernichten Sie die Nachricht.


The information in this email and in any attachment is confidential and
intended only for the attention and use of the recipient(s) as
addressed. It must not be disclosed, used or disseminated by any
unauthorized person. If you are not the intended recipient or
accordingly authorized, please contact the sender and delete the
message.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20101025/bd58aa15/attachment.html>


More information about the Digestion mailing list