[Digestion] Just a spoonfull of sugar (per sq.m) makes the soil life enhance?
Mark Wells
mark at gaiacooperative.com
Mon Oct 25 05:13:44 CDT 2010
Dear Dr Karve,
Re the application of 25kg of sugar per acre every three months to improve
soil life and the release of soluble minerals. This is an application rate
of less than a just 6.2grams of sugar over a square meter of earth. Is this
correct?
Regards
Mark Wells
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 12:58:18 +0800
From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
<digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 31
Message-ID:
<AANLkTimtM04PxpfV95kwhr+vtbwO0fqLgbF0m6R9JxFm at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Mr. Oliviera,
there is a positive correlation between the population density of microbes
in the soil and soil fertility. Therefore, application of any biodegradable
organic material to the soil causes the microbes in the soil to multiply. In
the process of multiplication, they absorb minerals from the soil. The
textbooks say that they cannot absorb minerals from the soil, because the
soil minerals are insoluble, but that is not true. Water is a universal
solvent, and the capillary water in the soil always contains all the soil
minerals dissolved in it, albeit in a very small concentration, which can be
measured only in P.P.M. or P.P.B. If you applied pure sugar to the soil, the
soil microbes increase their numbers 500 to 1000 times within 24 hours.This
shows that the microbes can take up minerals from the capillary water in the
soil. The minerals sequestered in their cells are now in the form of
proteins, co-enzymes etc,.which are highly water soluble. When the organic
matter has been exhausted, the microbes die of starvation, and when their
cells lyse, the minerals released in the soil are taken up by plants. Thus,
even a relatively small quantity of high calorie organic matter applied to
the soil can lead to an increase in the soil fertility. Literally thousands
of farmers in Maharashtra state in India are nowadays following this tactic.
They apply to their field just 25 kg sugar per acre, once every three
months, and no other chemical fertilizer or organic manure. And yet they get
very high yield from their crops, equivalent to the yield that they used to
obtain by applying costly chemical fertilizers.
Yours
A.D.Karve
On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 6:18 AM, Ivo Oliveira <ivomdb at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I've been reading a couple of documents about vermicompost and digester
> effluent aplication to different crops. For exemple: Vegetables (carrot,
> spinach, onions etc), Fruits and maize. For instance when applying
digester
> effluent to vegetables 100 l per hectare (of a total 300 l mixed with
water
> on a 1:3 ratio) should be added every 10 days. It seems quite small....
> However I found in other articles that you can apply raw digester effluent
> without dilution but doesn't say the amounts that should be added.
>
> Using Vermicompost the information seems more available but still not
sure.
> For example I found that you can apply 120 g of vermicompost/ plant (crop)
> or 60 g or 10 g to vegetables.....
>
> So... the information available is some what diverse. I wonder if someone
> could share his knowledge when using digester effluent or vermicompost as
an
> organic fertilizer.
>
> Thanks,
> Ivo Oliveira
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 12:00 PM, <
> digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
>
>> Send Digestion mailing list submissions to
>> digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
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>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 29 (David Fulford)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:21:31 +0100
>> From: David Fulford <davidf at kingdombio.com>
>> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 29
>> Message-ID: <4CB5882B.1040104 at kingdombio.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>>
>> Listers, Hi
>>
>> The Ashden Awards <http://www.ashdenawards.org/int_awards> are looking
>> for projects on renewable energy to be submitted for a possible award.
>> Biogas projects have done well in past years (see the videos listed
>> under Ashden Awards on the Biogas Wikispaces
>> <http://biogas.wikispaces.com/Videos> page). I have added the two that
>> won awards in 2010.
>>
>> If you think you have, or know of, a project that could be classed as an
>> "Energy Champion", that relates to any form of renewable energy do
>> consider applying. The deadline for International Awards is fairly tight
>> - 19 October, so you need to download the information
>> <
>>
http://www.ashdenawards.org/files/docs/2011/International_EOI_briefing.pdf
>> >
>> and the forms
>> <
>>
http://www.ashdenawards.org/files/application_form_2010/Ashden_Awards_2011_I
nternational_EOI_form.xls
>> >
>> and fill them in quickly. As well as projects involving biogas, they are
>> also looking for projects on the wider subject of biomass, as well as
>> solar, hydro and wind, or any system that provides or encourages the use
>> of sustainable energy.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> David Fulford
>> --
>>
>> ********************************************************************
>> Dr David Fulford CEnv MEI, 15, Brandon Ave, Woodley, Reading RG5 4PU
>> d.j.fulford at btinternet.com <mailto:d.j.fulford at btinternet.com>, Tel:
>> +44(0)118 326 9779 Mob: +44(0)7746 806401
>> Kingdom Bioenergy Ltd, www.kingdombio.com <http://www.kingdombio.com>,
>> davidf at kindombio.com <mailto:davidf at kindombio.com>
>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Digestion mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>>
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sts.org
>>
>> for more information about digestion, see
>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 31
>> ****************************************
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digestion mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
sts.org
>
> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
>
>
--
***
Dr. A.D. Karve
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
*Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:07:45 +0530
From: Sumedh Bapat <sumedh.bapat at gmail.com>
To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
Message-ID:
<AANLkTimwCStXcg7Yf57U8MAVtAXt+C-uK20wEq=GWdZx at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Dr. Karve,
I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the discrepancy in
the information you have provided here..
* on October 17 you said :*
"In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms do not
digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other organisms to
digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the methanogens. It is
like saying that manure applied to a field is human food, because through a
number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into products, which
the humans eat."
*on October 24 you said :*
"According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about
30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant
produces 540 cubic meters of it."
I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow dung. Now it can
be seen that you claim that some other plant is generating 540 times more
gas than your plants.
Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by Methanogens
which have consumed other similar organisms from the biogas plant , which in
turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?
Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold increase
from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?
*Again* _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?
Kind Regards,
Sumedh Bapat
On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <
digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
> Send Digestion mailing list submissions to
> digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>
>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
sts.org
>
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> digestion-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based
> research and questions (Anand Karve)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800
> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More
> scientific based research and questions
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Dr. Martin,
> I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I attended a
workshop
> arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the Department of
> Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20 scientists each from
> UK and India were invited to this meeting.
> In the course of field visits organised during the workshop, Dr. Soham
> Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages, an NGO in Wardha,
> showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This biogas plant accepts
> about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces daily about 3
> cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of about 180 days.
This
> is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using funds from the
> Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed a similar biogas
> plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time load of 1000 kg
> dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an electricity
> generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric lighting to all the
> houses in the village. Officials of the Department of Science and
> Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims. According to text
book
> knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000 litres (or 30
> cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant produces 540 cubic
> meters of it.
> Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a
> scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of biogas. Dung of
> Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins and midribs of the
> grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms. One has to assume
> in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that feed on the lignin
> and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin <duncanjmartin at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?
> >
> > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because they need
help
> > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the point I was
> > responding to - that the digestion process is not *completed *by the act
> > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of the gut in
> > question.
> >
> > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that microbes are
> > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well established
> and
> > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex web of
> metabolic
> > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is pretty well
> > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.
> >
> > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that the
methanogens
> > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a proposed
> > mechanism.
> >
> > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous postings) is
> unhelpful,
> > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every one of them?
Of
> > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if only because
> > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there are indeed
some
> > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who would take
> them
> > as serious guides to the science?
> >
> > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report them - giving
> > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the field by
> dismissing
> > every other source of information as rubbish.
> >
> > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his opinion - but
> > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical experience and
> > evidence-based information.
> >
> > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.
> >
> > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI
> > Cloughjordan Ecovillage
> > Ireland
> >
> > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Duncan,
> >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms, with one
> >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another converting the
> >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still another
> converting
> >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic acid being
> >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide and
methane.
> If
> >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism that
> converted
> >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce alcohol.
> Cellulose is
> >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world and with this
> >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity of liquid
> fuel.
> >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is achieved in
> any
> >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted from a
> >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the glucose
> converted by
> >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same organism. And once
> it is
> >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all the way down
> to
> >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal cannot be
> >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and suply it to
> the
> >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume the fellow
> >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to produce
methane
> and
> >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in the soil
> supplied
> >> with organic matter.
> >> In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic
organisms
> >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other
> >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the
> >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to a field is human
> food,
> >> because through a number of biological processes it ultimately ends up
> into
> >> products, which the humans eat.
> >> Yours
> >> A.D.Karve
> >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin <
> duncanjmartin at gmail.com
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the animal eats.
> >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet is derived
> from
> >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow are
> surrounded by
> >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest them. They live
> on the
> >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of metabolic
> >>> interactions is well known.
> >>>
> >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung cannot serve
> as
> >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of the body
> along
> >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Digestion mailing list
> >>
> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>
> >>
>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
sts.org
> >>
> >> for more information about digestion, see
> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Digestion mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
sts.org
> >
> > for more information about digestion, see
> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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>
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>
> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
>
>
> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
> ****************************************
>
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Message: 3
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 17:31:10 +0800
From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
<digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
Message-ID:
<AANLkTinpeuNYs446hbVAu2o5Dz17v9U6jCgyhkhgKxkO at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Dear Mr. Bapat,
the biogas plant in Wardha, which accepts 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time
load and produces daily 3 cubic meter biogas continuously over a period of
180 days, was an absolutely novel system to me. In fact that is why I
reported it, because I felt that somebody in the AD discussion group maight
know more about it. Since neither the British scientists nor any of the
Indian scientists present there could give a scientific explanation to this
phenomenon, I have ventured a plausible explanation. The Archaea are a very
ancient group of organisms. Lignin is produced by green plants, which
evolved much later. Therefore the methanogens cannot digest lignin. The fact
that in Wardha, this particular biogas plant was producing almost 18 times
as much biogas as would be expected, can be explained by the assumption
that lignin was being digested by some other organisms and the products of
the lignin digesting organisms were being made available to the
mehanogens. But the speculation that some species of organisms conduct
extra-cellular digestion of cellulose or lignin, and make the products
of such digestion available to the methanogens, is not acceptable to me,
because if such were really the case, one would have used such organisms to
produce sugars from lignocellulosic material and then obtained alcohol from
these sugars. Since nobody has succeeded in doing this, I feel that the
organisms that digest cellulose or lignin consume the sugars themselves and
multiply their own numbers, and that the methanogens consume these microbes
to produce methane. I am ready to accept any other explanation, if it is
logical.
Yours
A.D.Karve
On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Sumedh Bapat <sumedh.bapat at gmail.com>wrote:
> Dear Dr. Karve,
> I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the discrepancy
> in the information you have provided here..
>
> * on October 17 you said :*
> "In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms do not
> digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other organisms to
> digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the methanogens. It
is
> like saying that manure applied to a field is human food, because through
a
> number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into products, which
> the humans eat."
>
> *on October 24 you said :*
> "According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about
> 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas
plant
> produces 540 cubic meters of it."
>
>
> I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow dung.
> Now it can be seen that you claim that some other plant is generating 540
> times more gas than your plants.
> Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by Methanogens
> which have consumed other similar organisms from the biogas plant , which
in
> turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?
> Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold increase
> from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?
> *Again* _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?
>
> Kind Regards,
> Sumedh Bapat
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <
> digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
>
>> Send Digestion mailing list submissions to
>> digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>
>>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
sts.org
>>
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> digestion-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based
>> research and questions (Anand Karve)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800
>> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
>> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More
>> scientific based research and questions
>> Message-ID:
>> <AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Dear Dr. Martin,
>> I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I attended a
>> workshop
>> arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the Department of
>> Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20 scientists each
from
>> UK and India were invited to this meeting.
>> In the course of field visits organised during the workshop, Dr. Soham
>> Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages, an NGO in Wardha,
>> showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This biogas plant
accepts
>> about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces daily about 3
>> cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of about 180 days.
>> This
>> is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using funds from the
>> Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed a similar biogas
>> plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time load of 1000 kg
>> dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an electricity
>> generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric lighting to all the
>> houses in the village. Officials of the Department of Science and
>> Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims. According to text
>> book
>> knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000 litres (or 30
>> cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant produces 540 cubic
>> meters of it.
>> Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a
>> scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of biogas. Dung of
>> Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins and midribs of
the
>> grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms. One has to
assume
>> in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that feed on the lignin
>> and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.
>> Yours
>> A.D.Karve
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin <duncanjmartin at gmail.com
>> >wrote:
>>
>> > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?
>> >
>> > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because they need
>> help
>> > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the point I was
>> > responding to - that the digestion process is not *completed *by the
act
>> > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of the gut in
>> > question.
>> >
>> > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that microbes are
>> > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well
established
>> and
>> > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex web of
>> metabolic
>> > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is pretty well
>> > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.
>> >
>> > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that the
>> methanogens
>> > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a proposed
>> > mechanism.
>> >
>> > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous postings) is
>> unhelpful,
>> > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every one of them?
>> Of
>> > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if only because
>> > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there are indeed
>> some
>> > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who would take
>> them
>> > as serious guides to the science?
>> >
>> > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report them - giving
>> > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the field by
>> dismissing
>> > every other source of information as rubbish.
>> >
>> > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his opinion - but
>> > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical experience and
>> > evidence-based information.
>> >
>> > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.
>> >
>> > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI
>> > Cloughjordan Ecovillage
>> > Ireland
>> >
>> > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Dear Duncan,
>> >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms, with one
>> >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another converting the
>> >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still another
>> converting
>> >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic acid being
>> >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide and
>> methane. If
>> >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism that
>> converted
>> >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce alcohol.
>> Cellulose is
>> >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world and with
this
>> >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity of liquid
>> fuel.
>> >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is achieved
in
>> any
>> >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted from a
>> >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the glucose
>> converted by
>> >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same organism. And once
>> it is
>> >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all the way
down
>> to
>> >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal cannot be
>> >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and suply it to
>> the
>> >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume the fellow
>> >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to produce
>> methane and
>> >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in the soil
>> supplied
>> >> with organic matter.
>> >> In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic
>> organisms
>> >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other
>> >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the
>> >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to a field is human
>> food,
>> >> because through a number of biological processes it ultimately ends up
>> into
>> >> products, which the humans eat.
>> >> Yours
>> >> A.D.Karve
>> >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin <
>> duncanjmartin at gmail.com
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the animal eats.
>> >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet is derived
>> from
>> >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow are
>> surrounded by
>> >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest them. They live
>> on the
>> >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of metabolic
>> >>> interactions is well known.
>> >>>
>> >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung cannot
serve
>> as
>> >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of the body
>> along
>> >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
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>> >>
>> >> for more information about digestion, see
>> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
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>> >
>> > for more information about digestion, see
>> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> ***
>> Dr. A.D. Karve
>> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>>
>> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
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> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
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>
>
--
***
Dr. A.D. Karve
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
*Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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