[Digestion] Just a spoonfull of sugar (per sq.m) makes the soil life enhance?
Anand Karve
adkarve at gmail.com
Mon Oct 25 09:28:51 CDT 2010
Dear Mr. Wells,
I made a mistake in writing the previous message. It should have been 25 kg
sugar per hectare, which means only 2.5 g sugar per square meter. One can
also apply 125 kg green leaves per ha, which gives the same rate of
application on dry weight basis. In fact, I became interested in this
phenomenon after I discovered that 1 kg sugar yielded more than 800 litres
of biogas. Literally thousands of farmers in Maharashtra State in India
apply to their fields 25 kg sugar, 25 kg cow dung and 25 litres cow urine
per hectare, and no chemical fertilizers. They get very high yield, and
practically everybody reported that there were no pests and diseases on
their crops. Locally this mixture is called elixir water. My students and I
have personally visited their farms to see their crops and to verify their
claims. Even one of our staff members uses the same method in his own farm.
He grows sugarcane and last year he harvested 170 tons per ha of stripped
stalks of sugarcane, which is an amazingly high yield in a state, which has
an average sugarcane yield of only about 90 tons per ha.
Yours
A.D.Karve
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Mark Wells <mark at gaiacooperative.com>wrote:
> Dear Dr Karve,
> Re the application of 25kg of sugar per acre every three months to improve
> soil life and the release of soluble minerals. This is an application rate
> of less than a just 6.2grams of sugar over a square meter of earth. Is
> this
> correct?
> Regards
> Mark Wells
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 12:58:18 +0800
> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 31
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTimtM04PxpfV95kwhr+vtbwO0fqLgbF0m6R9JxFm at mail.gmail.com<AANLkTimtM04PxpfV95kwhr%2BvtbwO0fqLgbF0m6R9JxFm at mail.gmail.com>
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Mr. Oliviera,
> there is a positive correlation between the population density of microbes
> in the soil and soil fertility. Therefore, application of any biodegradable
> organic material to the soil causes the microbes in the soil to multiply.
> In
> the process of multiplication, they absorb minerals from the soil. The
> textbooks say that they cannot absorb minerals from the soil, because the
> soil minerals are insoluble, but that is not true. Water is a universal
> solvent, and the capillary water in the soil always contains all the soil
> minerals dissolved in it, albeit in a very small concentration, which can
> be
> measured only in P.P.M. or P.P.B. If you applied pure sugar to the soil,
> the
> soil microbes increase their numbers 500 to 1000 times within 24 hours.This
> shows that the microbes can take up minerals from the capillary water in
> the
> soil. The minerals sequestered in their cells are now in the form of
> proteins, co-enzymes etc,.which are highly water soluble. When the organic
> matter has been exhausted, the microbes die of starvation, and when their
> cells lyse, the minerals released in the soil are taken up by plants. Thus,
> even a relatively small quantity of high calorie organic matter applied to
> the soil can lead to an increase in the soil fertility. Literally thousands
> of farmers in Maharashtra state in India are nowadays following this
> tactic.
> They apply to their field just 25 kg sugar per acre, once every three
> months, and no other chemical fertilizer or organic manure. And yet they
> get
> very high yield from their crops, equivalent to the yield that they used to
> obtain by applying costly chemical fertilizers.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 6:18 AM, Ivo Oliveira <ivomdb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I've been reading a couple of documents about vermicompost and digester
> > effluent aplication to different crops. For exemple: Vegetables (carrot,
> > spinach, onions etc), Fruits and maize. For instance when applying
> digester
> > effluent to vegetables 100 l per hectare (of a total 300 l mixed with
> water
> > on a 1:3 ratio) should be added every 10 days. It seems quite small....
> > However I found in other articles that you can apply raw digester
> effluent
> > without dilution but doesn't say the amounts that should be added.
> >
> > Using Vermicompost the information seems more available but still not
> sure.
> > For example I found that you can apply 120 g of vermicompost/ plant
> (crop)
> > or 60 g or 10 g to vegetables.....
> >
> > So... the information available is some what diverse. I wonder if someone
> > could share his knowledge when using digester effluent or vermicompost as
> an
> > organic fertilizer.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ivo Oliveira
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 12:00 PM, <
> > digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Send Digestion mailing list submissions to
> >> digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >>
> >>
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
> sts.org
> >>
> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >> digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >> digestion-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >> 1. Re: Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 29 (David Fulford)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:21:31 +0100
> >> From: David Fulford <davidf at kingdombio.com>
> >> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
> >> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 29
> >> Message-ID: <4CB5882B.1040104 at kingdombio.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
> >>
> >> Listers, Hi
> >>
> >> The Ashden Awards <http://www.ashdenawards.org/int_awards> are looking
> >> for projects on renewable energy to be submitted for a possible award.
> >> Biogas projects have done well in past years (see the videos listed
> >> under Ashden Awards on the Biogas Wikispaces
> >> <http://biogas.wikispaces.com/Videos> page). I have added the two that
> >> won awards in 2010.
> >>
> >> If you think you have, or know of, a project that could be classed as an
> >> "Energy Champion", that relates to any form of renewable energy do
> >> consider applying. The deadline for International Awards is fairly tight
> >> - 19 October, so you need to download the information
> >> <
> >>
> http://www.ashdenawards.org/files/docs/2011/International_EOI_briefing.pdf
> >> >
> >> and the forms
> >> <
> >>
>
> http://www.ashdenawards.org/files/application_form_2010/Ashden_Awards_2011_I
> nternational_EOI_form.xls
> >> >
> >> and fill them in quickly. As well as projects involving biogas, they are
> >> also looking for projects on the wider subject of biomass, as well as
> >> solar, hydro and wind, or any system that provides or encourages the use
> >> of sustainable energy.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> David Fulford
> >> --
> >>
> >> ********************************************************************
> >> Dr David Fulford CEnv MEI, 15, Brandon Ave, Woodley, Reading RG5 4PU
> >> d.j.fulford at btinternet.com <mailto:d.j.fulford at btinternet.com>, Tel:
> >> +44(0)118 326 9779 Mob: +44(0)7746 806401
> >> Kingdom Bioenergy Ltd, www.kingdombio.com <http://www.kingdombio.com>,
> >> davidf at kindombio.com <mailto:davidf at kindombio.com>
> >>
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> >> >
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Digestion mailing list
> >>
> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >>
> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >>
> >>
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
> sts.org
> >>
> >> for more information about digestion, see
> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 31
> >> ****************************************
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Digestion mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
> sts.org
> >
> > for more information about digestion, see
> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 14:07:45 +0530
> From: Sumedh Bapat <sumedh.bapat at gmail.com>
> To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTimwCStXcg7Yf57U8MAVtAXt+C-uK20wEq=GWdZx at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Dr. Karve,
> I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the discrepancy
> in
> the information you have provided here..
>
> * on October 17 you said :*
> "In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms do not
> digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other organisms to
> digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the methanogens. It
> is
> like saying that manure applied to a field is human food, because through a
> number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into products, which
> the humans eat."
>
> *on October 24 you said :*
> "According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about
> 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant
> produces 540 cubic meters of it."
>
>
> I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow dung. Now it
> can
> be seen that you claim that some other plant is generating 540 times more
> gas than your plants.
> Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by Methanogens
> which have consumed other similar organisms from the biogas plant , which
> in
> turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?
> Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold increase
> from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?
> *Again* _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?
>
> Kind Regards,
> Sumedh Bapat
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <
> digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
>
> > Send Digestion mailing list submissions to
> > digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >
> >
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
> sts.org
> >
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > digestion-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based
> > research and questions (Anand Karve)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800
> > From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
> > To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
> > <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More
> > scientific based research and questions
> > Message-ID:
> > <AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Dear Dr. Martin,
> > I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I attended a
> workshop
> > arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the Department of
> > Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20 scientists each
> from
> > UK and India were invited to this meeting.
> > In the course of field visits organised during the workshop, Dr. Soham
> > Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages, an NGO in Wardha,
> > showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This biogas plant
> accepts
> > about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces daily about 3
> > cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of about 180 days.
> This
> > is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using funds from the
> > Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed a similar biogas
> > plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time load of 1000 kg
> > dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an electricity
> > generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric lighting to all the
> > houses in the village. Officials of the Department of Science and
> > Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims. According to text
> book
> > knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000 litres (or 30
> > cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant produces 540 cubic
> > meters of it.
> > Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a
> > scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of biogas. Dung of
> > Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins and midribs of
> the
> > grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms. One has to
> assume
> > in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that feed on the lignin
> > and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.
> > Yours
> > A.D.Karve
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin <duncanjmartin at gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?
> > >
> > > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because they need
> help
> > > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the point I was
> > > responding to - that the digestion process is not *completed *by the
> act
> > > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of the gut in
> > > question.
> > >
> > > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that microbes are
> > > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well
> established
> > and
> > > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex web of
> > metabolic
> > > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is pretty well
> > > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.
> > >
> > > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that the
> methanogens
> > > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a proposed
> > > mechanism.
> > >
> > > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous postings) is
> > unhelpful,
> > > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every one of them?
> Of
> > > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if only because
> > > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there are indeed
> some
> > > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who would take
> > them
> > > as serious guides to the science?
> > >
> > > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report them - giving
> > > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the field by
> > dismissing
> > > every other source of information as rubbish.
> > >
> > > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his opinion - but
> > > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical experience and
> > > evidence-based information.
> > >
> > > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.
> > >
> > > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI
> > > Cloughjordan Ecovillage
> > > Ireland
> > >
> > > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Dear Duncan,
> > >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms, with one
> > >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another converting the
> > >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still another
> > converting
> > >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic acid being
> > >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide and
> methane.
> > If
> > >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism that
> > converted
> > >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce alcohol.
> > Cellulose is
> > >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world and with
> this
> > >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity of liquid
> > fuel.
> > >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is achieved
> in
> > any
> > >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted from a
> > >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the glucose
> > converted by
> > >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same organism. And once
> > it is
> > >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all the way
> down
> > to
> > >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal cannot be
> > >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and suply it to
> > the
> > >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume the fellow
> > >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to produce
> methane
> > and
> > >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in the soil
> > supplied
> > >> with organic matter.
> > >> In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic
> organisms
> > >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other
> > >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the
> > >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to a field is human
> > food,
> > >> because through a number of biological processes it ultimately ends up
> > into
> > >> products, which the humans eat.
> > >> Yours
> > >> A.D.Karve
> > >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin <
> > duncanjmartin at gmail.com
> > >> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the animal eats.
> > >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet is derived
> > from
> > >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow are
> > surrounded by
> > >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest them. They live
> > on the
> > >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of metabolic
> > >>> interactions is well known.
> > >>>
> > >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung cannot
> serve
> > as
> > >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of the body
> > along
> > >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Digestion mailing list
> > >>
> > >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> > >>
> > >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >>
> > >>
> >
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
> sts.org
> > >>
> > >> for more information about digestion, see
> > >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> > >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> > >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Digestion mailing list
> > >
> > > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> > >
> > > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> > >
> > >
> >
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
> sts.org
> > >
> > > for more information about digestion, see
> > > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> > > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> > > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > ***
> > Dr. A.D. Karve
> > President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
> >
> > *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Digestion mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> >
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
> sts.org
> >
> > for more information about digestion, see
> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >
> >
> >
> > End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
> > ****************************************
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 17:31:10 +0800
> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinpeuNYs446hbVAu2o5Dz17v9U6jCgyhkhgKxkO at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear Mr. Bapat,
> the biogas plant in Wardha, which accepts 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time
> load and produces daily 3 cubic meter biogas continuously over a period of
> 180 days, was an absolutely novel system to me. In fact that is why I
> reported it, because I felt that somebody in the AD discussion group maight
> know more about it. Since neither the British scientists nor any of the
> Indian scientists present there could give a scientific explanation to this
> phenomenon, I have ventured a plausible explanation. The Archaea are a very
> ancient group of organisms. Lignin is produced by green plants, which
> evolved much later. Therefore the methanogens cannot digest lignin. The
> fact
> that in Wardha, this particular biogas plant was producing almost 18 times
> as much biogas as would be expected, can be explained by the assumption
> that lignin was being digested by some other organisms and the products of
> the lignin digesting organisms were being made available to the
> mehanogens. But the speculation that some species of organisms conduct
> extra-cellular digestion of cellulose or lignin, and make the products
> of such digestion available to the methanogens, is not acceptable to me,
> because if such were really the case, one would have used such organisms to
> produce sugars from lignocellulosic material and then obtained alcohol from
> these sugars. Since nobody has succeeded in doing this, I feel that the
> organisms that digest cellulose or lignin consume the sugars themselves and
> multiply their own numbers, and that the methanogens consume these microbes
> to produce methane. I am ready to accept any other explanation, if it is
> logical.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Sumedh Bapat <sumedh.bapat at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Dear Dr. Karve,
> > I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the discrepancy
> > in the information you have provided here..
> >
> > * on October 17 you said :*
> > "In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic organisms do not
> > digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other organisms
> to
> > digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of the methanogens. It
> is
> > like saying that manure applied to a field is human food, because through
> a
> > number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into products, which
> > the humans eat."
> >
> > *on October 24 you said :*
> > "According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced
> about
> > 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas
> plant
> > produces 540 cubic meters of it."
> >
> >
> > I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow dung.
> > Now it can be seen that you claim that some other plant is generating 540
> > times more gas than your plants.
> > Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by Methanogens
> > which have consumed other similar organisms from the biogas plant , which
> in
> > turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?
> > Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold increase
> > from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?
> > *Again* _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> > Sumedh Bapat
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM, <
> > digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
> >
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> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >> 1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific based
> >> research and questions (Anand Karve)
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800
> >> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com>
> >> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
> >> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article - More
> >> scientific based research and questions
> >> Message-ID:
> >> <AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@mail.gmail.com>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >>
> >> Dear Dr. Martin,
> >> I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I attended a
> >> workshop
> >> arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the Department of
> >> Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20 scientists each
> from
> >> UK and India were invited to this meeting.
> >> In the course of field visits organised during the workshop, Dr. Soham
> >> Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages, an NGO in
> Wardha,
> >> showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This biogas plant
> accepts
> >> about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces daily about 3
> >> cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of about 180 days.
> >> This
> >> is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using funds from the
> >> Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed a similar
> biogas
> >> plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time load of 1000 kg
> >> dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an electricity
> >> generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric lighting to all
> the
> >> houses in the village. Officials of the Department of Science and
> >> Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims. According to text
> >> book
> >> knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000 litres (or 30
> >> cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant produces 540
> cubic
> >> meters of it.
> >> Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a
> >> scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of biogas. Dung
> of
> >> Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins and midribs of
> the
> >> grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms. One has to
> assume
> >> in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that feed on the
> lignin
> >> and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.
> >> Yours
> >> A.D.Karve
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin <duncanjmartin at gmail.com
> >> >wrote:
> >>
> >> > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?
> >> >
> >> > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens because they need
> >> help
> >> > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses the point I was
> >> > responding to - that the digestion process is not *completed *by the
> act
> >> > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner of the gut in
> >> > question.
> >> >
> >> > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting that microbes are
> >> > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are well
> established
> >> and
> >> > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the complex web of
> >> metabolic
> >> > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and is pretty well
> >> > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.
> >> >
> >> > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting that the
> >> methanogens
> >> > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to see a proposed
> >> > mechanism.
> >> >
> >> > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous postings) is
> >> unhelpful,
> >> > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read every one of them?
> >> Of
> >> > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books - if only because
> >> > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And there are indeed
> >> some
> >> > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but who would take
> >> them
> >> > as serious guides to the science?
> >> >
> >> > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to report them -
> giving
> >> > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the field by
> >> dismissing
> >> > every other source of information as rubbish.
> >> >
> >> > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to his opinion -
> but
> >> > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical experience and
> >> > evidence-based information.
> >> >
> >> > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.
> >> >
> >> > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI
> >> > Cloughjordan Ecovillage
> >> > Ireland
> >> >
> >> > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Dear Duncan,
> >> >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of micro-organisms, with one
> >> >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another converting the
> >> >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still another
> >> converting
> >> >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the acetic acid
> being
> >> >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon dioxide and
> >> methane. If
> >> >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the organism that
> >> converted
> >> >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce alcohol.
> >> Cellulose is
> >> >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the world and with
> this
> >> >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited quantity of liquid
> >> fuel.
> >> >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into glucose is achieved
> in
> >> any
> >> >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme extracted from a
> >> >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that the glucose
> >> converted by
> >> >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same organism. And
> once
> >> it is
> >> >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell all the way
> down
> >> to
> >> >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an animal cannot be
> >> >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food and suply it to
> >> the
> >> >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms consume the
> fellow
> >> >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them to produce
> >> methane and
> >> >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also in the soil
> >> supplied
> >> >> with organic matter.
> >> >> In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic
> >> organisms
> >> >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the help of other
> >> >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is the food of
> the
> >> >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to a field is
> human
> >> food,
> >> >> because through a number of biological processes it ultimately ends
> up
> >> into
> >> >> products, which the humans eat.
> >> >> Yours
> >> >> A.D.Karve
> >> >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin <
> >> duncanjmartin at gmail.com
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the animal eats.
> >> >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their diet is derived
> >> from
> >> >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a cow are
> >> surrounded by
> >> >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest them. They
> live
> >> on the
> >> >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web of metabolic
> >> >>> interactions is well known.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that dung cannot
> serve
> >> as
> >> >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown out" of the body
> >> along
> >> >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Digestion mailing list
> >> >>
> >> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
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> >> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> >> >>
> >>
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
> sts.org
> >> >>
> >> >> for more information about digestion, see
> >> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> >> >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> >> >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Digestion mailing list
> >> >
> >> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> >> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
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> >> >
> >>
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
> sts.org
> >> >
> >> > for more information about digestion, see
> >> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> >> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> >> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ***
> >> Dr. A.D. Karve
> >> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
> >>
> >> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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> >> >
> >>
> >> ------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Digestion mailing list
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> >>
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> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
> sts.org
> >>
> >> for more information about digestion, see
> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
> >> ****************************************
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Digestion mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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> sts.org
> >
> > for more information about digestion, see
> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
>
>
> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 41
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> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
>
--
***
Dr. A.D. Karve
President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
*Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com *
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