[Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
Markus Schlattmann
firmen at schlattmann.de
Mon Oct 25 15:28:47 CDT 2010
Hi,
I still don't believe in those 540 m³ from 1000 kg dung. Since we only
just know it "fresh dung", let's try to get a backwards look at it:
Let's say we have 540 m³ biogas (dry gas, 0°C, 1013 mbar like literature
values in german tables, if we want to compare this to values given in
those tables).
Let's say we have 60% methane, 40% carbon dioxide (here it doesn't
matter anyway: it's not relevant if a C is in CH4 or in CO2)
So in those 540m³ would be 24,1 kmole C.
This corresponds to a mass of about 289 kg.
Considering a C-Content of 43% TS this would lead to a 673 kg fresh matter.
Much to dry for anaerobic digestion.
And this estimation is already done considering ALL of the C from the
substrate (even including all lignin) would be in the biogas. (In own
investigations ~30% of dung material is degradable)
Please correct me, if you find an error.
In comparison in literature tables (e.g. FNR(2004)) is given:
cattle liquid manure, TS 8-11%, VS 75-82 %TS, gas yield: 20-30m³ per t
fresh matter, 200-500m³ per t VS, 60% CH4
cattle (dry) manure, TS ~25%, VS 68-67 %TS, gas yield: 40-50m³ per t
fresh matter, 210-300m³ per t VS, 60% CH4
this seems reasonable.
Also the values given by Klaus Peter Hankel in his post today fit into
those values:
indian bovine manure: 18% DS, 83% vDS, 300 l biogas/kgvDS, 60% CH4
Since those 540m³ come from a batch digestion, I believe that there's a
higher gas yield per VS than in semi-continuous digestion, since there
is a long period with no addition od fresh, easily degradable matter. So
bacteria have the decision: "starve" or "eat lignin" :).
I also made this experience in own investigations of higher degredation
of fibers, but I don't think this effect is that big, even if the
digestion process is performed over 180 days (see estimation of C above).
If you should come across the original presentation again, please let me
know. I would be interested in the original values and the return of
investment calculations.
And coming back to P. Hankel's values (lets assume 1000 kg fresh matter):
1000 kg fresh matter
180 kg dry matter
77,4 kg C (assuming my value of 43%TS as given above)
149,4 kg volatile solids
with 300 l/kg VS leading to a total gas of 44,8 m³ (in the range of
literature values given above)
44,8 m³ Biogas corresponds to 24 kg C in the gas
24 kg in the gas is about 31% of C in the substrate (so this would
confirm my above value of about 30% degradation of dung material)
So these values make a perfect sense to me.
Best regards
Markus Schlattmann
Am 25.10.2010 16:42, schrieb Anand Karve:
> Dear Markus,
> it was the weight of fresh dung. Apparently, the system that I saw in
> Wardha was new to me, but not new in India. There already exists a
> commercial firm, which constructs similar systems. A colleague of mine
> showed me a recorded presentation of theirs. The presentation contains
> photographs of the system, tables showing return on investment, and
> data of biogas production. Their claims match those made by Centre of
> Science for Villages in Wardha. Dung contains enough carbon, but it is
> mainly in the form of lignin. Unless one assumes that somehow the
> lignin in the dung gets converted into biogas, one cannot explain the
> high biogas yield.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Markus Schlattmann
> <firmen at schlattmann.de <mailto:firmen at schlattmann.de>> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> when you compare the yields based on fresh mass, are you sure
> you're talking about the same "dung"?
>
> Here in Central Europe cattle often are kept in stables leading to
> liquid (~8%TS) manure.
> In India perhaps "dung" is "dried dung"?
> Generally, for comapring gas yields of substrates it's better to
> compare gas yields based on VS, not fresh matter, since water
> content may vary a lot.
>
> I can't think that there's a production of 18 times more biogas if
> we are talking about comparable dung. You may calculate/estimate a
> C-Balance. If there's one loading, you can't get more C in CH4/CO2
> out of the system than you have put into it with the
> substrate/inoculum in the beginning.
>
> Markus Schlattmann
>
>
>
>
> Am 24.10.2010 11:31, schrieb Anand Karve:
>> Dear Mr. Bapat,
>> the biogas plant in Wardha, which accepts 1000 kg cattle dung as
>> a one-time load and produces daily 3 cubic meter biogas
>> continuously over a period of 180 days, was an absolutely novel
>> system to me. In fact that is why I reported it, because I felt
>> that somebody in the AD discussion group maight know more about
>> it. Since neither the British scientists nor any of the Indian
>> scientists present there could give a scientific explanation to
>> this phenomenon, I have ventured a plausible explanation. The
>> Archaea are a very ancient group of organisms. Lignin is produced
>> by green plants, which evolved much later. Therefore the
>> methanogens cannot digest lignin. The fact that in Wardha, this
>> particular biogas plant was producing almost 18 times as much
>> biogas as would be expected, can be explained by the assumption
>> that lignin was being digested by some other organisms and the
>> products of the lignin digesting organisms were being made
>> available to the mehanogens. But the speculation that some
>> species of organisms conduct extra-cellular digestion of
>> cellulose or lignin, and make the products of such digestion
>> available to the methanogens, is not acceptable to me, because if
>> such were really the case, one would have used such organisms to
>> produce sugars from lignocellulosic material and then obtained
>> alcohol from these sugars. Since nobody has succeeded in doing
>> this, I feel that the organisms that digest cellulose or lignin
>> consume the sugars themselves and multiply their own numbers, and
>> that the methanogens consume these microbes to produce methane. I
>> am ready to accept any other explanation, if it is logical.
>> Yours
>> A.D.Karve
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Sumedh Bapat
>> <sumedh.bapat at gmail.com <mailto:sumedh.bapat at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Dr. Karve,
>> I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the
>> discrepancy in the information you have provided here..
>> */ on October 17 you said : /*
>> "In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic
>> organisms do not digest the dung directly and that they need
>> the help of other organisms to digest it, one cannot accept
>> that dung is the food of the methanogens. It is like saying
>> that manure applied to a field is human food, because through
>> a number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into
>> products, which the humans eat."
>> */on October 24 you said : /*
>> "According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have
>> produced about 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But
>> this particular biogas plant produces 540 cubic meters of it."
>>
>> I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow
>> dung. Now it can be seen that you claim that some other plant
>> is generating 540 times more gas than your plants.
>> Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by
>> Methanogens which have consumed other similar organisms from
>> the biogas plant , which in turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?
>> Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold
>> increase from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?
>> /Again/ _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?
>> Kind Regards,
>> Sumedh Bapat
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM,
>> <digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> <mailto:digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>> wrote:
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>> 1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific
>> based
>> research and questions (Anand Karve)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800
>> From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com
>> <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com>>
>> To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>> <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
>> <mailto:digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article -
>> More
>> scientific based research and questions
>> Message-ID:
>> <AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@mail.gmail.com
>> <http://mail.gmail.com/>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> Dear Dr. Martin,
>> I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I
>> attended a workshop
>> arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the
>> Department of
>> Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20
>> scientists each from
>> UK and India were invited to this meeting.
>> In the course of field visits organised during the
>> workshop, Dr. Soham
>> Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages,
>> an NGO in Wardha,
>> showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This
>> biogas plant accepts
>> about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces
>> daily about 3
>> cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of
>> about 180 days. This
>> is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using
>> funds from the
>> Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed
>> a similar biogas
>> plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time
>> load of 1000 kg
>> dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an
>> electricity
>> generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric
>> lighting to all the
>> houses in the village. Officials of the Department of
>> Science and
>> Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims.
>> According to text book
>> knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000
>> litres (or 30
>> cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant
>> produces 540 cubic
>> meters of it.
>> Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a
>> scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of
>> biogas. Dung of
>> Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins
>> and midribs of the
>> grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms.
>> One has to assume
>> in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that
>> feed on the lignin
>> and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.
>> Yours
>> A.D.Karve
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin
>> <duncanjmartin at gmail.com
>> <mailto:duncanjmartin at gmail.com>>wrote:
>>
>> > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?
>> >
>> > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens
>> because they need help
>> > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses
>> the point I was
>> > responding to - that the digestion process is not
>> *completed *by the act
>> > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner
>> of the gut in
>> > question.
>> >
>> > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting
>> that microbes are
>> > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are
>> well established and
>> > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the
>> complex web of metabolic
>> > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and
>> is pretty well
>> > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.
>> >
>> > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting
>> that the methanogens
>> > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to
>> see a proposed
>> > mechanism.
>> >
>> > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous
>> postings) is unhelpful,
>> > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read
>> every one of them? Of
>> > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books -
>> if only because
>> > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And
>> there are indeed some
>> > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but
>> who would take them
>> > as serious guides to the science?
>> >
>> > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to
>> report them - giving
>> > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the
>> field by dismissing
>> > every other source of information as rubbish.
>> >
>> > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to
>> his opinion - but
>> > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical
>> experience and
>> > evidence-based information.
>> >
>> > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.
>> >
>> > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI
>> > Cloughjordan Ecovillage
>> > Ireland
>> >
>> > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve
>> <adkarve at gmail.com <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Dear Duncan,
>> >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of
>> micro-organisms, with one
>> >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another
>> converting the
>> >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still
>> another converting
>> >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the
>> acetic acid being
>> >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon
>> dioxide and methane. If
>> >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the
>> organism that converted
>> >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce
>> alcohol. Cellulose is
>> >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the
>> world and with this
>> >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited
>> quantity of liquid fuel.
>> >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into
>> glucose is achieved in any
>> >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme
>> extracted from a
>> >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that
>> the glucose converted by
>> >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same
>> organism. And once it is
>> >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell
>> all the way down to
>> >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an
>> animal cannot be
>> >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food
>> and suply it to the
>> >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms
>> consume the fellow
>> >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them
>> to produce methane and
>> >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also
>> in the soil supplied
>> >> with organic matter.
>> >> In any case, once it is accepted that the
>> methanogenic organisms
>> >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the
>> help of other
>> >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is
>> the food of the
>> >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to
>> a field is human food,
>> >> because through a number of biological processes it
>> ultimately ends up into
>> >> products, which the humans eat.
>> >> Yours
>> >> A.D.Karve
>> >> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin
>> <duncanjmartin at gmail.com <mailto:duncanjmartin at gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the
>> animal eats.
>> >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their
>> diet is derived from
>> >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a
>> cow are surrounded by
>> >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest
>> them. They live on the
>> >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web
>> of metabolic
>> >>> interactions is well known.
>> >>>
>> >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that
>> dung cannot serve as
>> >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown
>> out" of the body along
>> >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >> _______________________________________________
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>> >> for more information about digestion, see
>> >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> >
>> > for more information about digestion, see
>> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> ***
>> Dr. A.D. Karve
>> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>>
>> *Please change my email address in your records to:
>> adkarve at gmail.com <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com> *
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>> for more information about digestion, see
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>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>
>>
>>
>> End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
>> ****************************************
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> for more information about digestion, see
>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ***
>> Dr. A.D. Karve
>> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>>
>> *Please change my email address in your records to:
>> adkarve at gmail.com <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com> *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Digestion mailing list
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>> for more information about digestion, see
>> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>> and the Biogas Wikihttp://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
> Markus Schlattmann
>
> --------------------------------------
> schlattmann sustainables
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>
> Dipl.-Ing. agr. Markus Schlattmann
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> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
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>
>
>
>
> --
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com
> <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com> *
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> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
--
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Markus Schlattmann
--------------------------------------
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