[Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40

Markus Schlattmann firmen at schlattmann.de
Mon Oct 25 13:28:47 PDT 2010


Hi,

I still don't believe in those 540 m³ from 1000 kg dung. Since we only 
just know it "fresh dung", let's try to get a backwards look at it:

Let's say we have 540 m³ biogas (dry gas, 0°C, 1013 mbar like literature 
values in german tables, if we want to compare this to values given in 
those tables).

Let's say we have 60% methane, 40% carbon dioxide (here it doesn't 
matter anyway: it's not relevant if a C is in CH4 or in CO2)

So in those 540m³ would be 24,1 kmole C.
This corresponds to a mass of about 289 kg.
Considering a C-Content of 43% TS this would lead to a 673 kg fresh matter.
Much to dry for anaerobic digestion.
And this estimation is already done considering ALL of the C from the 
substrate (even including all lignin) would be in the biogas. (In own 
investigations ~30% of dung material is degradable)

Please correct me, if you find an error.

In comparison in literature tables (e.g. FNR(2004)) is given:
cattle liquid manure, TS 8-11%, VS 75-82 %TS, gas yield: 20-30m³ per t 
fresh matter, 200-500m³ per t VS, 60% CH4
cattle (dry) manure, TS ~25%, VS 68-67 %TS, gas yield: 40-50m³ per t 
fresh matter, 210-300m³ per t VS, 60% CH4
this seems reasonable.

Also the values given by Klaus Peter Hankel in his post today fit into 
those values:

indian bovine manure: 18% DS, 83% vDS, 300 l biogas/kgvDS, 60% CH4

Since those 540m³ come from a batch digestion, I believe that there's a 
higher gas yield per VS than in semi-continuous digestion, since there 
is a long period with no addition od fresh, easily degradable matter. So 
bacteria have the decision: "starve" or "eat lignin" :).
I also made this experience in own investigations of higher degredation 
of fibers, but I don't think this effect is that big, even if the 
digestion process is performed over 180 days (see estimation of C above).

If you should come across the original presentation again, please let me 
know. I would be interested in the original values and the return of 
investment calculations.

And coming back to P. Hankel's values (lets assume 1000 kg fresh matter):
1000 kg fresh matter
180 kg dry matter
77,4 kg C (assuming my value of 43%TS as given above)
149,4 kg volatile solids
with 300 l/kg VS leading to a total gas of 44,8 m³ (in the range of 
literature values given above)
44,8 m³ Biogas corresponds to 24 kg C in the gas
24 kg in the gas is about 31% of C in the substrate (so this would 
confirm my above value of about 30% degradation of dung material)
So these values make a perfect sense to me.


Best regards
Markus Schlattmann


Am 25.10.2010 16:42, schrieb Anand Karve:
> Dear Markus,
> it was the weight of fresh dung. Apparently, the system that I saw in 
> Wardha was new to me, but not new in India. There already exists a 
> commercial firm, which constructs similar systems. A colleague of mine 
> showed me a recorded presentation of theirs. The presentation contains 
> photographs of the system, tables showing return on investment, and 
> data of biogas production. Their claims match those made by Centre of 
> Science for Villages in Wardha. Dung contains enough carbon, but it is 
> mainly in the form of lignin. Unless one assumes that somehow the 
> lignin in the dung gets converted into biogas, one cannot explain the 
> high biogas yield.
> Yours
> A.D.Karve
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 4:57 PM, Markus Schlattmann 
> <firmen at schlattmann.de <mailto:firmen at schlattmann.de>> wrote:
>
>     Hi,
>
>     when you compare the yields based on fresh mass, are you sure
>     you're talking about the same "dung"?
>
>     Here in Central Europe cattle often are kept in stables leading to
>     liquid (~8%TS) manure.
>     In India perhaps "dung" is "dried dung"?
>     Generally, for comapring gas yields of substrates it's better to
>     compare gas yields based on VS, not fresh matter, since water
>     content may vary a lot.
>
>     I can't think that there's a production of 18 times more biogas if
>     we are talking about comparable dung. You may calculate/estimate a
>     C-Balance. If there's one loading, you can't get more C in CH4/CO2
>     out of the system than you have put into it with the
>     substrate/inoculum in the beginning.
>
>     Markus Schlattmann
>
>
>
>
>     Am 24.10.2010 11:31, schrieb Anand Karve:
>>     Dear Mr. Bapat,
>>     the biogas plant in Wardha, which accepts 1000 kg cattle dung as
>>     a one-time load and produces daily 3 cubic meter biogas
>>     continuously over a period of 180 days, was an absolutely novel
>>     system to me. In fact that is why I reported it, because I felt
>>     that somebody in the AD discussion group maight know more about
>>     it. Since neither the British scientists nor any of the Indian
>>     scientists present there could give a scientific explanation to
>>     this phenomenon, I have ventured a plausible explanation. The
>>     Archaea are a very ancient group of organisms. Lignin is produced
>>     by green plants, which evolved much later. Therefore the
>>     methanogens cannot digest lignin. The fact that in Wardha, this
>>     particular biogas plant was producing almost 18 times as much
>>     biogas as would be expected, can be explained by the assumption
>>     that lignin was being digested by some other organisms and the
>>     products of the lignin digesting organisms were being made
>>     available to the mehanogens. But the speculation that some
>>     species of organisms conduct extra-cellular digestion of
>>     cellulose or lignin, and make the products of such digestion
>>     available to the methanogens, is not acceptable to me, because if
>>     such were really the case, one would have used such organisms to
>>     produce sugars from lignocellulosic material and then obtained
>>     alcohol from these sugars. Since nobody has succeeded in doing
>>     this, I feel that the organisms that digest cellulose or lignin
>>     consume the sugars themselves and multiply their own numbers, and
>>     that the methanogens consume these microbes to produce methane. I
>>     am ready to accept any other explanation, if it is logical.
>>     Yours
>>     A.D.Karve
>>
>>     On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Sumedh Bapat
>>     <sumedh.bapat at gmail.com <mailto:sumedh.bapat at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Dear Dr. Karve,
>>         I am sorry to comment on this again but I cannot overlook the
>>         discrepancy in the information you have provided here..
>>         */ on October 17 you said : /*
>>         "In any case, once it is accepted that the methanogenic
>>         organisms do not digest the dung directly and that they need
>>         the help of other organisms to digest it, one cannot accept
>>         that dung is the food of the methanogens. It is like saying
>>         that manure applied to a field is human food, because through
>>         a number of biological processes it ultimately ends up into
>>         products, which the humans eat."
>>         */on October 24 you said : /*
>>         "According to text book knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have
>>         produced about 30,000 litres (or 30 cubic meters) biogas. But
>>         this particular biogas plant produces 540 cubic meters of it."
>>
>>         I also happen to notice that both the subjects refer to cow
>>         dung. Now it can be seen that you claim that some other plant
>>         is generating 540 times more gas than your plants.
>>         Do you mean that this 540 m3 gas that you saw, is produced by
>>         Methanogens which have consumed other similar organisms from
>>         the biogas plant , which in turn had "eaten" the Cpw Dung ?
>>         Can you please explain the sudden Biogas Generation manifold
>>         increase from 30 m3 (conventionally known) to 540 m3 ?
>>         /Again/ _ Can you please provide a basis for such a finding ?
>>         Kind Regards,
>>         Sumedh Bapat
>>
>>         On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:30 AM,
>>         <digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>         <mailto:digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>> wrote:
>>
>>             Send Digestion mailing list submissions to
>>             digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>             <mailto:digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>             To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>             http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>             or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>             digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>             <mailto:digestion-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>             You can reach the person managing the list at
>>             digestion-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>             <mailto:digestion-owner at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>             When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is
>>             more specific
>>             than "Re: Contents of Digestion digest..."
>>
>>
>>             Today's Topics:
>>
>>               1. Re: Attachment to previous Article - More scientific
>>             based
>>                  research and questions (Anand Karve)
>>
>>
>>             ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>             Message: 1
>>             Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2010 02:43:13 +0800
>>             From: Anand Karve <adkarve at gmail.com
>>             <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com>>
>>             To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>>             <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
>>             <mailto:digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
>>             Subject: Re: [Digestion] Attachment to previous Article -
>>             More
>>                    scientific based research and questions
>>             Message-ID:
>>             <AANLkTi=qxog1xd-4Q9JOwVaNpL8S=Bgpc2n=JxY7R5a=@mail.gmail.com
>>             <http://mail.gmail.com/>>
>>             Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>>             Dear Dr. Martin,
>>             I have just returned from a city called Wardha, where I
>>             attended a workshop
>>             arranged jointly by the Research Councils of UK and the
>>             Department of
>>             Science and Technology, Government of India. About 20
>>             scientists each from
>>             UK and India were invited to this meeting.
>>             In the course of field visits organised during the
>>             workshop, Dr. Soham
>>             Pandya, The Director of Centre of Science for Villages,
>>             an NGO in Wardha,
>>             showed us an amazing biogas plant on his campus. This
>>             biogas plant accepts
>>             about 1000 kg cattle dung as a one-time load and produces
>>             daily about 3
>>             cubic meters of biogas, continuously over a period of
>>             about 180 days.  This
>>             is not the only biogas plant constructed by him. Using
>>             funds from the
>>             Department of Science and Technology, He has constructed
>>             a similar biogas
>>             plant in another place called Hingoli, where a one-time
>>             load  of 1000 kg
>>             dung yields biogas continuously for 6 months, to run an
>>             electricity
>>             generator for daily 3 to 4 hours, to provide electric
>>             lighting to all the
>>             houses in the village.  Officials of the Department of
>>             Science and
>>             Technology vouched for the veracity of these claims.
>>             According to text book
>>             knowledge, 1000 kg dung should have produced about 30,000
>>             litres (or 30
>>             cubic meters) biogas. But this particular biogas plant
>>             produces 540 cubic
>>             meters of it.
>>             Neither Dr. Pandya nor any other scientist could give a
>>             scientific explanation to this phenomenally high yield of
>>             biogas. Dung of
>>             Indian cattle consists mainly of lignin (from the veins
>>             and midribs of the
>>             grass and leaves that they feed on) and micro-organisms.
>>             One has to assume
>>             in this case, that there are microbes in the dung that
>>             feed on the lignin
>>             and that the methanogens digested the lignin eating microbes.
>>             Yours
>>             A.D.Karve
>>
>>             On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Duncan Martin
>>             <duncanjmartin at gmail.com
>>             <mailto:duncanjmartin at gmail.com>>wrote:
>>
>>             > Perhaps Dr Karve & I should agree to disagree?
>>             >
>>             > To argue that dung is not food for the methanogens
>>             because they need help
>>             > to digest it is really a semantic quibble. It misses
>>             the point I was
>>             > responding to - that the digestion process is not
>>             *completed *by the act
>>             > of defaecation, it is merely *terminated* for the owner
>>             of the gut in
>>             > question.
>>             >
>>             > I have never seen any serious literature suggesting
>>             that microbes are
>>             > altruistic. However, the principles of commensalism are
>>             well established and
>>             > I see no basis for dismissing them. Moreover, the
>>             complex web of metabolic
>>             > interactions in AD has been extensively researched and
>>             is pretty well
>>             > understood - though I am sure there is more to discover.
>>             >
>>             > Nor have I seen any literature whatsoever suggesting
>>             that the methanogens
>>             > consume other microorganisms. I would be intrigued to
>>             see a proposed
>>             > mechanism.
>>             >
>>             > To dismiss all the textbooks as wrong (see previous
>>             postings) is unhelpful,
>>             > at best. Who could only say that unless he had read
>>             every one of them? Of
>>             > course, there are mistakes - even in the best books -
>>             if only because
>>             > science moves on, so any book becomes outdated. And
>>             there are indeed some
>>             > layman's guides to AD that include some odd ideas - but
>>             who would take them
>>             > as serious guides to the science?
>>             >
>>             > When we find such errors, let us use this forum to
>>             report them - giving
>>             > exact references. But lets not confuse newcomers to the
>>             field by dismissing
>>             > every other source of information as rubbish.
>>             >
>>             > Finally, let us accept that each of us is entitled to
>>             his opinion - but
>>             > lets reserve this forum for the fruits of practical
>>             experience and
>>             > evidence-based information.
>>             >
>>             > I suggest we draw a line under the present debate.
>>             >
>>             > Duncan Martin, PhD, MCIWM, MIChemE, MIEI
>>             > Cloughjordan Ecovillage
>>             > Ireland
>>             >
>>             > On 17 October 2010 16:39, Anand Karve
>>             <adkarve at gmail.com <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>             >
>>             >> Dear Duncan,
>>             >> I dont believe in the theory of a chain of
>>             micro-organisms, with one
>>             >> species converting the cellulose into glucose, another
>>             converting the
>>             >> glucose into an organic acid (e.g. citric acid), still
>>             another converting
>>             >> the organic acid into acetic acid and ultimately the
>>             acetic acid being
>>             >> converted by the methanogenic organisms into carbon
>>             dioxide and methane. If
>>             >> this were true, one would have by now isolated the
>>             organism that converted
>>             >> cellulose into glucose and used the glucose to produce
>>             alcohol. Cellulose is
>>             >> the most ubiquitously found organic compount in the
>>             world and with this
>>             >> simple process, one would have produced unlimited
>>             quantity of liquid fuel.
>>             >> But even today, the conversion of cellulose into
>>             glucose is achieved in any
>>             >> industrial process by using a cellulolytic enzyme
>>             extracted from a
>>             >> cellulolytic organism. The reason for this is, that
>>             the glucose converted by
>>             >> the organism from cellulose is consumed by the same
>>             organism. And once it is
>>             >> consumed by an organism, it is converted into its cell
>>             all the way down to
>>             >> carbon dioxide. The micro-organisms in the gut of an
>>             animal cannot be
>>             >> expected to be so altruistic as to predigest the food
>>             and suply it to the
>>             >> methanogens. I feel that the methanogenic organisms
>>             consume the fellow
>>             >> micro-organisms in the gut of animals and digest them
>>             to produce methane and
>>             >> carbon dioxide. Such dog-eat-dog reactions occur also
>>             in the soil supplied
>>             >> with organic matter.
>>             >>         In any case, once it is accepted that the
>>             methanogenic organisms
>>             >> do not digest the dung directly and that they need the
>>             help of other
>>             >> organisms to digest it, one cannot accept that dung is
>>             the food of the
>>             >> methanogens. It is like saying that manure applied to
>>             a field is human food,
>>             >> because through a number of biological processes it
>>             ultimately ends up into
>>             >> products, which the humans eat.
>>             >> Yours
>>             >> A.D.Karve
>>             >>   On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:27 PM, Duncan Martin
>>             <duncanjmartin at gmail.com <mailto:duncanjmartin at gmail.com>
>>             >> > wrote:
>>             >>
>>             >>>
>>             >>> Yes, the gut methanogens do, in a sense, eat what the
>>             animal eats.
>>             >>> However, it would be more accurate to say that their
>>             diet is derived from
>>             >>> what the animal eats. The methanogens in the gut of a
>>             cow are surrounded by
>>             >>> celluose and other biopolymers but they cannot digest
>>             them. They live on the
>>             >>> waste products of other microbial processes. The web
>>             of metabolic
>>             >>> interactions is well known.
>>             >>>
>>             >>> Where I would "hoot out" Dr Karve is his belief that
>>             dung cannot serve as
>>             >>> food for the methanogens because they are "thrown
>>             out" of the body along
>>             >>> with the dung. I don't understand the logic here.
>>             >>>
>>             >>>
>>             >>>
>>             >> _______________________________________________
>>             >> Digestion mailing list
>>             >>
>>             >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>             >> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>>             <mailto:Digestion at bioenergylists.org>
>>             >>
>>             >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the
>>             web page
>>             >>
>>             >>
>>             http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>             >>
>>             >> for more information about digestion, see
>>             >> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>>             >> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>>             >> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>             >>
>>             >>
>>             >>
>>             >
>>             > _______________________________________________
>>             > Digestion mailing list
>>             >
>>             > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>             > Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>>             <mailto:Digestion at bioenergylists.org>
>>             >
>>             > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web
>>             page
>>             >
>>             >
>>             http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>             >
>>             > for more information about digestion, see
>>             > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>>             > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>>             > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>             >
>>             >
>>             >
>>
>>
>>             --
>>             ***
>>             Dr. A.D. Karve
>>             President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>>
>>             *Please change my email address in your records to:
>>             adkarve at gmail.com <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com> *
>>             -------------- next part --------------
>>             An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>             URL:
>>             <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20101024/49a74dc6/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>>             ------------------------------
>>
>>             _______________________________________________
>>             Digestion mailing list
>>
>>             to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>             Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>>             <mailto:Digestion at bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>             to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>             http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>             for more information about digestion, see
>>             Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>>             http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>>             and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>             End of Digestion Digest, Vol 2, Issue 40
>>             ****************************************
>>
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         Digestion mailing list
>>
>>         to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>         Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>>         <mailto:Digestion at bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>         to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>         http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>         for more information about digestion, see
>>         Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>>         http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>>         and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>     ***
>>     Dr. A.D. Karve
>>     President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>>
>>     *Please change my email address in your records to:
>>     adkarve at gmail.com <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com> *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Digestion mailing list
>>
>>     to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>     Digestion at bioenergylists.org  <mailto:Digestion at bioenergylists.org>
>>
>>     to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>     http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>>     for more information about digestion, see
>>     Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>>     http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>>     and the Biogas Wikihttp://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>
>
>
>     -- 
>
>     Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
>     Markus Schlattmann
>
>     --------------------------------------
>     schlattmann sustainables
>     schlattmann.de  <http://schlattmann.de/>
>
>     Dipl.-Ing. agr. Markus Schlattmann
>     Grünseiboldsdorfer Weg 5
>     85416 Langenbach
>
>     Tel.: +49 (0)8761 72162-60
>     Fax.: +49 (0)8761 72162-61
>
>     E-Mail: firmen at schlattmann de
>     Web:www.schlattmann.de  <http://www.schlattmann.de/>
>     -------------------------------------
>
>     Die Informationen in dieser E-Mail und im Anhang sind vertraulich und
>     nur für den/die benannten Empfänger bestimmt. Öffnen, Nutzen oder
>     Verbreiten durch unautorisierte Personen ist untersagt. Falls Sie nicht
>     der Empfänger oder eine entsprechend autorisierte Person sind,
>     informieren Sie bitte den Absender und vernichten Sie die Nachricht.
>
>
>     The information in this email and in any attachment is confidential and
>     intended only for the attention and use of the recipient(s) as
>     addressed. It must not be disclosed, used or disseminated by any
>     unauthorized person. If you are not the intended recipient or
>     accordingly authorized, please contact the sender and delete the
>     message.
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Digestion mailing list
>
>     to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>     Digestion at bioenergylists.org <mailto:Digestion at bioenergylists.org>
>
>     to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>     http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
>     for more information about digestion, see
>     Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>     http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>     and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> ***
> Dr. A.D. Karve
> President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)
>
> *Please change my email address in your records to: adkarve at gmail.com 
> <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com> *
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digestion mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>


-- 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Markus Schlattmann

--------------------------------------
schlattmann sustainables
schlattmann.de

Dipl.-Ing. agr. Markus Schlattmann
Grünseiboldsdorfer Weg 5
85416 Langenbach

Tel.: +49 (0)8761 72162-60
Fax.: +49 (0)8761 72162-61

E-Mail: firmen at schlattmann de
Web:www.schlattmann.de
-------------------------------------

Die Informationen in dieser E-Mail und im Anhang sind vertraulich und
nur für den/die benannten Empfänger bestimmt. Öffnen, Nutzen oder
Verbreiten durch unautorisierte Personen ist untersagt. Falls Sie nicht
der Empfänger oder eine entsprechend autorisierte Person sind,
informieren Sie bitte den Absender und vernichten Sie die Nachricht.


The information in this email and in any attachment is confidential and
intended only for the attention and use of the recipient(s) as
addressed. It must not be disclosed, used or disseminated by any
unauthorized person. If you are not the intended recipient or
accordingly authorized, please contact the sender and delete the
message.


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/digestion_lists.bioenergylists.org/attachments/20101025/1bd5a61f/attachment.html>


More information about the Digestion mailing list