[Digestion] Digestion of Honey Waste

Wed Feb 16 22:10:10 CST 2011

Dear Brent,

The information on using biogas in boilers and the damage it does is 
very useful information. Do you have records that could be put in the 
biogas wikispaces page? It would other groups who are using biogas in 
boilers to identify the problems they will face. A brief report 
(hopefully with pictures) would be useful. We need information on the 
problems as well as the benefits of AD.

The difference between your experience and that of Dr Anand Karve is 
that in India most biogas is burnt in "open" conditions, where there is 
plenty of ventilation. Any sulphuric acid generated by burning hydrogen 
sulphide is well diluted by air. A heater in a livestock building would 
be an enclosed system in which the sulphuric acid can collect and cause 
rust and other damage to the heat exchangers and exhaust system. Your 
exhaust systems are likely to encounter cold conditions in which water 
from combustion will condense, allowing the sulphur dioxide to dissolve 
and oxidise to form sulphuric acid. The temperature in India is usually 
high enough to prevent condensation, so the sulphur dioxide can escape 
into the atmosphere.

If we have more information about both approaches available in the 
public realm, we avoid misleading people. If biogas companies in India 
were expected to clean their biogas before use, their systems would 
become uneconomic. However, as you have pointed out, when biogas is used 
in colder climates, the gas must be cleaned before it can be used, to 
avoid the problems you encountered.

Regards,

David F

On 16/02/2011 16:58, bingham wrote:
> Dear Anand,
> Are you saying you have an AD system that produces Biogas which does 
> not require the expenditure of any energy?
> Alcohol can be burned in diesel and gas engines at 100 proof replacing 
> $3.00++ automotive fuel. I do not understand
> your point about "use the fuel where it is generated" but one of 
> alcohol's good points is it can be transported
> inexpensively or used "where it is generated". With the advent of 
> vacuum operated alcohol distillation systems
> direct sun light  is all the external heat that is needed to produce 
> alcohol at 190 proof.
> We do not know if the honey facility can even use biogas "as it is", 
> or has a need for it. Our natural gas boilers cannot use raw biogas
> "as it is", we must scrub out all H2S to prevent damaging another 
> boiler and or most of the CO2  to avoid spending
> thousands to modify the burners to burn both natural gas and biogas. I 
> do not know where or how you use biogas
> "as it is" we tried it in unit heaters in our livestock buildings and 
> destroyed them in a year.
> The fact is in the last 45 years, we have found almost no application 
> for the long term use of biogas ,that H2S is not a factor.
> Cooking stoves, lighting, boilers, unite heaters, water heaters, 
> inferred heaters all experienced significantly shorter lives from using
> biogas "as it is". Some of the failures were out right dangerous.
> Anand, I believe you are being misleading to the point of being 
> untruthful. This could result in someone being hurt or killed,
> who might take what you said "Biogas can be burned as it is" as fact 
> and use it with out precautions.
> Standard residential plumbing and appliances contain metals that do 
> not stand up under long term exposure to H2S. Especially in high heat high
> humidity conditions. Steel plumbing is used in most places that were 
> setup to use natural gas or propane. To suggest you can just pump
> biogas"as it is" in place of other fuels is just wrong on many levels. 
> We are strong proponents of AD but the "Bad Press" the list is
> currently discussing could be warranted in some instances. AD is not 
> the "highest and best" technology for all applications.
> Highest and best use principles require the use of an energy audit and 
> some study to determine which system is best suited to each situation. 
> My father, grand father
> and my uncles refused to believe that the effluent from the AD system 
> was better for the crops than the runoff from the livestock buildings. 
> It was only after the areas
> around the farms began to build up with new homes and the complaints 
> of smell threatened to shut us down that they allowed me to build our 
> first AD system. They then
> could see an increase in crop yields in later years, (and the smell 
> went away). I know corn farmers that use corn in there pellet stoves 
> as fuel  to heat there house because fuel pellets cost more to buy 
> than they were paid for their corn.
> Brent
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Anand Karve <mailto:adkarve at gmail.com>
>     *To:* For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>     <mailto:digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>     *Sent:* Tuesday, February 15, 2011 6:01 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: [Digestion] Digestion of Honey Waste
>
>     Dear Brent,
>     for alcohol to be useful as fuel, it has to be distilled, which
>     again requires expenditure of energy. Biogas can be burned as it
>     is. So, if you want to use the fuel where it is generated, biogas
>     is more advantageous than alcohol.
>     Yours
>     A.D.Karve
>
>
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> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>

-- 

********************************************************************
Dr David Fulford CEnv MEI, 15, Brandon Ave, Woodley, Reading RG5 4PU
d.j.fulford at btinternet.com <mailto:d.j.fulford at btinternet.com>, Tel: 
+44(0)118 326 9779 Mob: +44(0)7746 806401
Kingdom Bioenergy Ltd, www.kingdombio.com <http://www.kingdombio.com>, 
davidf at kindombio.com <mailto:davidf at kindombio.com>

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