[Digestion] Biogas conversation rates

Wed Jan 19 15:39:28 CST 2011

Brent, I don't want to gang up on you, but the idea that fossil fuel is free
is really a hard concept to grasp.  The days of Texas crude bubbling out of
the ground have been over for a long time.  Maybe, once billions are spent
on research, survey's, permits, drilling, extracting, ground pressurization,
military action, security forces, refining, and dealing with the toxic
byproducts, the oil it self is free.  It is artificially, cheap because some
of those costs are absorbed by tax payers, and therefore the companies
commercializing the petroleum can sell it for less.  These are simple truths
of the industry that anyone in the petroleum industry could share with you.
The records that Steve shared regarding subsides is dated, but you find that
those numbers are far larger today, especially for fossil fuel.  Just the
tax breaks for the larges fossil fuel producers dwarfs any subsidies
available for renewable energy (e.g. AD).

"In the US, the current regime is propping up alternate energy with
unsustainable subsidies, while at the same time, stopping the production of
domestic fossil fuels."

Sure, there is some support for renewable energy, but not a lot, and
certainly not more than petroleum, nuclear, and other energy sources that
will not provide sustainable, safe and clean energy production in the
future.  Many new technologies need help to get established.  I have been
conducting feasibility studies for the REAP program for AD projects in the
US, and thankfully that support has been there to help some really good
projects get off the ground.  The idea is that volume and "lessons learned"
will make the technology more competitive.  Would you not have appreciated
technical and financial support 20 years ago when your AD system was
installed?  If 50% of the system had been paid for and you had realized
additional savings by having strong R&D behind you, you systems would have
made your farm more economically successful.  Are we not on the same page
here?

Another thing that would make clean technology more competitive would be
fossil fuel not receiving such cost support.  It is also not a fair
characterization of the "regime" to say they have been against domestic
fuels, as they have proposed offshore drilling for the first time in many
locations and have not posed additional regulations in other areas.

We are not saying domestic fossil fuel sources should not be used, but
rather as Steve said, there should be triage.  Agriculture and vital
services should have priority, instead of, say, the high school kid that
circles my block 15 times a day in his parents Escalade, some very
inefficient (efficient here meaning use of energy per cubic foot and the
ability to retain heat) housing stock, and nearly 25% of household energy
use powering phantom loads that are not actually being used.    Without much
effort we could demonstrate many examples of inefficient energy use, that
should not offend you.  Obesity in the US is an example of wasteful energy
use as well, given that food is energy.  When I speak about efficiency, I am
referring to the amount of energy that goes into a process as compared to
the desired outcome, work, or value you are trying to get from the process.

I would also encourage you to do some reading about food exports to the
developing world, and the damage it has done to local production.  In short:
grains enter the market at prices lower than local farmers can produce the
same grains for.  This makes there farms less profitable, and therefore they
are unable to invest further in their production.  Sustained periods of this
put some farmers out of business.  With less local farmers, the market
become more dependent on the imported grains, and so on.  In this debate, I
would encourage you to not characterize all third world farmers as
subsistence, and there is a strong small-farm commercial industry that is
very important to the economies of these countries.

I hope this has addressed the basis behind "artificially cheap fossil fuel
production", and why the disparity between industrial and developing world
contexts can lead to unhealthy imbalances (i.e. illegal immigration).   The
main point here is that efficiency should be everyone's friend, and
politically, it is a very conservative (right) concept.

A

Please notice the lack of multiple ?? or !!.  Lets talk, not "yell".

On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 1:57 PM, bingham <bingham at zekes.com> wrote:

>  Ruben,
> ???? was not stuck!!!
> It seems you are avoiding answering the question by asking a question,  a
> rouse used by those who do not like the answer ??
> It also seems you have missed the central claim? Or you are using a tactic
> of smoke a mirrors to obfuscate the primes of the thread to which I
> responded,
> i.e.. "Anaerobic Digestions and the AD industry, which is currently
> undermined by artificially cheap fossil fuel production and use (not a
> political statement)".
> I will help you back to the point: "artificially cheap fossil fuel
> production". How is it "artificially cheap"????
> AD has proven it has a place in the overall energy system. It is not now
> practical in all applications.
> B
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Reuben Deumling <9watts at gmail.com>
> *To:* For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion<digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 19, 2011 1:09 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Digestion] Biogas conversation rates
>
> Brent,
>
> your question-mark key is stuck.
>
> But back to your central claim, if fossil fuels are free-as-is I'm not sure
> why you are worrying about a payback on your AD system. Something doesn't
> compute.
>
> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 12:04 PM, bingham <bingham at zekes.com> wrote:
>
>> Fossil fuel sits in the ground and is FREE as is. You cannot make free any
>> cheaper.
>>
>  ------------------------------
>
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> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
>
>

-- 
Alexander Eaton
Sistema Biobolsa
IRRI-Mexico
RedBioLAC

Mex cel: (55) 11522786
US cel: 970 275 4505

alex at irrimexico.org
alex at sistemabiobolsa.com

sistemabiobolsa.com
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