[Digestion] Biogas conversation rates
Eric Buysman
ericishier at yahoo.com
Wed Jan 19 19:25:53 CST 2011
Dear Alexander, dear all,
Even without subsidies on fossil fuel extraction and processing, you could argue
that fossil fuels are artificially cheap as nobody pays for the full cost. The
full cost would include all the externalities that are currently not paid for,
for instance, pollution, political unrest, climate change, smog and all the
related health costs.
Then, as suggested to take an holistic perspective, it is those people in the
third world, who do not pollute, are stuck with the consequences of climate
change to the greatest degree. That might even be the same people that have a
hard time making a living in the third world because of our subsidies on certain
crops.
Hence, when taking a holistic perspective, considering externalities, there is a
good case to assume that fossil fuels are artificially cheap.
________________________________
From: Alexander Eaton <alex at sistemabiobolsa.com>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Wed, January 19, 2011 6:39:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Biogas conversation rates
Brent, I don't want to gang up on you, but the idea that fossil fuel is free is
really a hard concept to grasp. The days of Texas crude bubbling out of the
ground have been over for a long time. Maybe, once billions are spent on
research, survey's, permits, drilling, extracting, ground pressurization,
military action, security forces, refining, and dealing with the toxic
byproducts, the oil it self is free. It is artificially, cheap because some of
those costs are absorbed by tax payers, and therefore the companies
commercializing the petroleum can sell it for less. These are simple truths of
the industry that anyone in the petroleum industry could share with you. The
records that Steve shared regarding subsides is dated, but you find that those
numbers are far larger today, especially for fossil fuel. Just the tax breaks
for the larges fossil fuel producers dwarfs any subsidies available for
renewable energy (e.g. AD).
"In the US, the current regime is propping up alternate energy with
unsustainable subsidies, while at the same time, stopping the production of
domestic fossil fuels."
Sure, there is some support for renewable energy, but not a lot, and certainly
not more than petroleum, nuclear, and other energy sources that will not provide
sustainable, safe and clean energy production in the future. Many new
technologies need help to get established. I have been conducting feasibility
studies for the REAP program for AD projects in the US, and thankfully that
support has been there to help some really good projects get off the ground.
The idea is that volume and "lessons learned" will make the technology more
competitive. Would you not have appreciated technical and financial support 20
years ago when your AD system was installed? If 50% of the system had been paid
for and you had realized additional savings by having strong R&D behind you, you
systems would have made your farm more economically successful. Are we not on
the same page here?
Another thing that would make clean technology more competitive would be fossil
fuel not receiving such cost support. It is also not a fair characterization of
the "regime" to say they have been against domestic fuels, as they have proposed
offshore drilling for the first time in many locations and have not posed
additional regulations in other areas.
We are not saying domestic fossil fuel sources should not be used, but rather as
Steve said, there should be triage. Agriculture and vital services should have
priority, instead of, say, the high school kid that circles my block 15 times a
day in his parents Escalade, some very inefficient (efficient here meaning use
of energy per cubic foot and the ability to retain heat) housing stock, and
nearly 25% of household energy use powering phantom loads that are not actually
being used. Without much effort we could demonstrate many examples of
inefficient energy use, that should not offend you. Obesity in the US is an
example of wasteful energy use as well, given that food is energy. When I speak
about efficiency, I am referring to the amount of energy that goes into a
process as compared to the desired outcome, work, or value you are trying to get
from the process.
I would also encourage you to do some reading about food exports to the
developing world, and the damage it has done to local production. In short:
grains enter the market at prices lower than local farmers can produce the same
grains for. This makes there farms less profitable, and therefore they are
unable to invest further in their production. Sustained periods of this put
some farmers out of business. With less local farmers, the market become more
dependent on the imported grains, and so on. In this debate, I would encourage
you to not characterize all third world farmers as subsistence, and there is a
strong small-farm commercial industry that is very important to the economies of
these countries.
I hope this has addressed the basis behind "artificially cheap fossil fuel
production", and why the disparity between industrial and developing world
contexts can lead to unhealthy imbalances (i.e. illegal immigration). The main
point here is that efficiency should be everyone's friend, and politically, it
is a very conservative (right) concept.
A
Please notice the lack of multiple ?? or !!. Lets talk, not "yell".
On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 1:57 PM, bingham <bingham at zekes.com> wrote:
Ruben,
>???? was not stuck!!!
>It seems you are avoiding answering the question by asking a question, a rouse
>used by those who do not like the answer ??
>It also seems you have missed the central claim? Or you are using a tactic of
>smoke a mirrors to obfuscate the primes of the thread to which I responded,
>i.e.. "Anaerobic Digestions and the AD industry, which is currently undermined
>by artificially cheap fossil fuel production and use (not a political
>statement)".
>I will help you back to the point: "artificially cheap fossil fuel production".
>How is it "artificially cheap"????AD has proven it has a place in the overall
>energy system. It is not now practical in all applications.
>
>B
>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Reuben Deumling
>>To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
>>Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 1:09 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Digestion] Biogas conversation rates
>>
>>
>>Brent,
>>
>>your question-mark key is stuck.
>>
>>But back to your central claim, if fossil fuels are free-as-is I'm not sure
>>why you are worrying about a payback on your AD system. Something doesn't
>>compute.
>>
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 12:04 PM, bingham <bingham at zekes.com> wrote:
>>
>>Fossil fuel sits in the ground and is FREE as is. You cannot make free any
>>cheaper.
>>>
________________________________
>>_______________________________________________
>>Digestion mailing list
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>>
>>for more information about digestion, see
>>Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>>http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>>and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
>Digestion mailing list
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>
>for more information about digestion, see
>Beginner's Guide to Biogas
>http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
>and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
>
>
--
Alexander Eaton
Sistema Biobolsa
IRRI-Mexico
RedBioLAC
Mex cel: (55) 11522786
US cel: 970 275 4505
alex at irrimexico.org
alex at sistemabiobolsa.com
sistemabiobolsa.com
www.irrimexico.org
www.redbiolac.org
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