[Digestion] Digestion Digest, Vol 38, Issue 6

Bill Rucks water.alchemy.ltd at clear.net.nz
Wed Oct 30 14:54:16 CDT 2013


Greetings group, 
Interesting discussion topic - at last someone is talking about a Household
(within the developed word) biogas system. 
I have significant experience in the issues on fixing the CO2 component of
Biogas produced at home size system levels - I have been installing House
Hold size Digester for a number of years both in New Zealand and the
Pacific. 
I have also been sequestering CO2 out of my Biogas for a while -
economically I find it difficult, biochehically/enginerring easy - I have
designer algae that deal well with this PH process - but in the end, I have
moved to just using the gas "as is" especially at the household level - it
is problematic creating an overly complex system at the Household level -
PBR/digester - it is hard to sell to the consumers !! It is tough enough to
get people to have a digester instead of the septic tank. Even though you
can supply all the house hold cooking on the waste of the house :) 

Relating to using EM Bacteria and Anaerobic Digestion Bacteria - in my
experience to date: the EM overruns the AD bacteria. 
I had some clients who had a community size AD system that was not producing
much gas - so I was consulted to define the reason - I found one of the
house holders was tipping EM down his drain - he went away, and the gas
production returned to being what is should be - all good - when he returned
and continued his practice the gas production returned  - unfortunately he
refused to stop to think what he was doing was best - (note, he also sold EM
around town), and since it was a collective community, they could not stop
him - unfortunate. 

Best regards, 

Bill Rucks 

International Bio-energy recovery specialist

Water Alchemy ltd 

Waste Action Ltd 

Bioenceptionz

New Zealand 

+ 64 3 544 9148 

+ 64 21 258 2063 

bill at water-alchemy.com 

http://www.water-alchemy.com/ 


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Subject: Digestion Digest, Vol 38, Issue 6

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Today's Topics:

   1. Photosythetically Conditioned Biogas Compression (Jacob Douenias)
   2. Re: Photosythetically Conditioned Biogas Compression (David)
   3. EM Effective Microorganisms and AD (Wayne Zschech)
   4. Re: Photosythetically Conditioned Biogas Compression (David)
   5. Re: Photosythetically Conditioned Biogas Compression (Paul Harris)
   6. Re: EM Effective Microorganisms and AD (Paul Harris)
   7. Re: EM Effective Microorganisms and AD (Richard L Vetter)
   8. Re: EM Effective Microorganisms and AD (Paul Harris)
   9. Re: Photosythetically Conditioned Biogas Compression (David)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 14:08:57 -0400
From: Jacob Douenias <jdouenias at gmail.com>
To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
Cc: Kelvin Rojas <kelvin.jro at gmail.com>, Rohan Rathod
	<rohankrathod at gmail.com>
Subject: [Digestion] Photosythetically Conditioned Biogas Compression
Message-ID:
	<CAK9JyBA-5apcJGkgRPoehY40w2cxy6WEvq9WiAhzvNi_58YWCQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi all!

Excited to join this group. I am a researcher working at carnegie mellon
university in pittsburgh.I am working on a startup where we are making
biogas at home and biologically purifying this gas.
Our gas composition at the end of our system is comprised of about 80%
methane and 20% oxygen. We are concerned about the storage and possible
compression of this gas due to the presence of oxygen in the gas. I know
that 80% methane is well above the upper explosive limit of methane (our
working conditions are 15-20psi for final gas compression and 60-80 degrees
farenheight). I know it is bad practice to have oxygen mixed with
combustible gas but at our composition should we worry about safely
compressing this mixture to a low pressure (15-20psi) and storing it in gas
cylinder? I would really love to hear what you think as I am just an
architect who happens to read a lot about biochem.

Glad to be considered,
Jacob

--
Jake Douenias
*Biogenous*
*
*
*Bio_Logic Design Group*
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 11:40:32 -0700
From: David <david at h4c.org>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
	<digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Photosythetically Conditioned Biogas
	Compression
Message-ID: <52700120.70205 at h4c.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"



Jacob,


On 10/29/2013 11:08 AM, Jacob Douenias wrote:
> ...we are making biogas at home and biologically purifying this gas.
>
> Our gas composition at the end of our system is comprised of about 80% 
> methane and 20% oxygen....

My apologies for not answering your question about compression of your
unusual mix of biogas, but I wonder more about a couple of other things that
may end up pertaining.

Particularly, I would love to know what you are doing, in as much detail as
you wish to provide, to "biologically purify". It sounds as though you may
be trying to grow algae, for example. Is that the case? 
Is it working well? What are you doing with the algae?

I would also mention that you will need to find specific reference to your
unusual mix to know what the flammability limits are. What is usually quoted
regarding methane is a mix of pure methane in air, and as such it does not
apply, quite, to biogas, nor would it apply to your situation. (I don't have
the time at the moment to look it up, but perhaps I will be able later...)




d.
--
David William House
"The Complete Biogas Handbook" |www.completebiogas.com| /Vahid Biogas/, an
alternative energy consultancy |www.vahidbiogas.com

|
|
"Make no search for water.   But find thirst,
And water from the very ground will burst."
(Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77)

http://bahai.us/
|
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 21:29:52 +0200
From: Wayne Zschech <waynezschech at calvarychapel.com>
To: "digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org"
	<digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: [Digestion] EM Effective Microorganisms and AD
Message-ID: <E86EA394-CC1B-4EE4-AFC2-FC00B50879C1 at calvarychapel.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=koi8-r

G'day all!

Does anyone have any experience on how AD can be used effectively with EM?
Are there any possibly synergies? E.g. The EM bokashi leachate goes off if
not used with in a day or so.  Could an AD reactor be of any use? Etc.

Blessings,
Wayne

Blessings,
Wayne

?????????? ? iPad


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 14:30:26 -0700
From: David <david at h4c.org>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
	<digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Photosythetically Conditioned Biogas
	Compression
Message-ID: <527028F2.6020900 at h4c.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"



Jacob,

Take 2,


On 10/29/2013 11:08 AM, Jacob Douenias wrote:
> Hi all!
>
> Excited to join this group. I am a researcher working at carnegie 
> mellon university in pittsburgh.I am working on a startup where we are 
> making biogas at home and biologically purifying this gas.
>
> Our gas composition at the end of our system is comprised of about 80% 
> methane and 20% oxygen. We are concerned about the storage and 
> possible compression of this gas due to the presence of oxygen in the 
> gas. I know that 80% methane is well above the upper explosive limit 
> of methane (our working conditions are 15-20psi for final gas 
> compression and 60-80 degrees farenheight). I know it is bad practice 
> to have oxygen mixed with combustible gas but at our composition 
> should we worry about safely compressing this mixture to a low 
> pressure (15-20psi) and storing it in gas cylinder? I would really 
> love to hear what you think as I am just an architect who happens to 
> read a lot about biochem.


The upper limit of flammability for methane in air is of course about 
15%. I took a bit of time between tasks to look it up, and in pure 
oxygen, the upper limit is 61%. (The lower limit is about the same in 
either case: ~5%.) There is a formula proposed by Zabetakis which 
indicates-- if I've done my figgers correct-- that at 20 PSI it should 
increase to perhaps 63% methane in oxygen. But note: that is an 
extrapolation, not a test result. And I would not call 80% "well 
above" that extrapolated limit.

I have to say, that particularly if I had children in the house-- you 
did say "biogas at home", and you did say "we"-- I would not want to 
take any implied risks. In the case of the information I have just 
given you, for example, maybe it's true, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe 
you didn't measure the gas ratio correctly and maybe it will change, 
if the presumed algae get frisky. Maybe, maybe.

If it were me, I would have a tendency to look at the gas cylinder and 
wonder whether I was unintentionally planning on making a bomb with 
its own built-in shrapnel, and then I would begin to wonder how I 
might store the gas some other way, such that if the marginally 
unthinkable did happen, nobody would be likely to be nearby, and 
nothing sharp and glittering would be hurled hither and thither as a 
result.





d.
-- 
David William House
"The Complete Biogas Handbook" |www.completebiogas.com|
/Vahid Biogas/, an alternative energy consultancy |www.vahidbiogas.com

|
|
"Make no search for water.   But find thirst,
And water from the very ground will burst."
(Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77)

http://bahai.us/
|
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Message: 5
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 11:13:33 +1030
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au>
To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Photosythetically Conditioned Biogas
	Compression
Message-ID: <52705635.3010008 at adelaide.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

G'day All,

Variable Volume (VV) storage has a number of advantages over Compression 
(C), which at 20 psi will not give you much advantage anyway. VV can be 
plastic, avoiding the shrapnel problem, and saves the 
cost/complication/energy consumption of C. You also get a simple visual 
indication of gas production/use with VV. Several members of this list 
can probably verify that with a plastic storage you get a hole and a 
rapid flare of gas rather than a large explosion

When we were talking about storing biogas at our University research 
site the maintenance supervisor said we would have to use steel 
containers and I thought to myself that I would rather stand alongside a 
plastic VV storage during a fire than be anywhere near a steel cylinder.

Happy Digesting

HOOROO
Mr Paul Harris
Visitor to The University of Adelaide

On 30/10/2013 8:00 AM, David wrote:
>
>
> Jacob,
>
> Take 2,
>
>
> On 10/29/2013 11:08 AM, Jacob Douenias wrote:
>> Hi all!
>>
>> Excited to join this group. I am a researcher working at carnegie 
>> mellon university in pittsburgh.I am working on a startup where we 
>> are making biogas at home and biologically purifying this gas.
>>
>> Our gas composition at the end of our system is comprised of about 
>> 80% methane and 20% oxygen. We are concerned about the storage and 
>> possible compression of this gas due to the presence of oxygen in the 
>> gas. I know that 80% methane is well above the upper explosive limit 
>> of methane (our working conditions are 15-20psi for final gas 
>> compression and 60-80 degrees farenheight). I know it is bad practice 
>> to have oxygen mixed with combustible gas but at our composition 
>> should we worry about safely compressing this mixture to a low 
>> pressure (15-20psi) and storing it in gas cylinder? I would really 
>> love to hear what you think as I am just an architect who happens to 
>> read a lot about biochem. 
>
>
> The upper limit of flammability for methane in air is of course about 
> 15%. I took a bit of time between tasks to look it up, and in pure 
> oxygen, the upper limit is 61%. (The lower limit is about the same in 
> either case: ~5%.) There is a formula proposed by Zabetakis which 
> indicates-- if I've done my figgers correct-- that at 20 PSI it should 
> increase to perhaps 63% methane in oxygen. But note: that is an 
> extrapolation, not a test result. And I would not call 80% "well 
> above" that extrapolated limit.
>
> I have to say, that particularly if I had children in the house-- you 
> did say "biogas at home", and you did say "we"-- I would not want to 
> take any implied risks. In the case of the information I have just 
> given you, for example, maybe it's true, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe 
> you didn't measure the gas ratio correctly and maybe it will change, 
> if the presumed algae get frisky. Maybe, maybe.
>
> If it were me, I would have a tendency to look at the gas cylinder and 
> wonder whether I was unintentionally planning on making a bomb with 
> its own built-in shrapnel, and then I would begin to wonder how I 
> might store the gas some other way, such that if the marginally 
> unthinkable did happen, nobody would be likely to be nearby, and 
> nothing sharp and glittering would be hurled hither and thither as a 
> result.
>
>
>
>
>
> d.
> -- 
> David William House
> "The Complete Biogas Handbook" |www.completebiogas.com|
> /Vahid Biogas/, an alternative energy consultancy |www.vahidbiogas.com
>
> |
> |
> "Make no search for water.     But find thirst,
> And water from the very ground will burst."
> (Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in /Delight of Hearts/, p. 77)
>
> http://bahai.us/
> |
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Digestion mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
sts.org
>
> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wikihttp://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>

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Message: 6
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 11:44:46 +1030
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au>
To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Digestion] EM Effective Microorganisms and AD
Message-ID: <52705D86.6040208 at adelaide.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=KOI8-R; format=flowed

G'day Wayne,

As has been commented elsewhere any attempt to use "designer" microbes 
in an anaerobic digester is likely to be swamped by the microbial 
ecosystem being fed to the digester unless the feed is sterile/sterilised.

My attitude (almost certainly not shared by all group members, but I 
hope we can agree to differ!) is that nature has sorted out a system 
over thousands of years and we are not likely to make it hugely better 
by a bit of fiddling. It is a bit like the argument between artificial 
and organic fertilisers - organic has a lot of micreonutrients missing 
from synthetic formulas and similarly EM may not have the synergies 
needed for AD.

Happy digesting,

HOOROO
Mr Paul Harris
Visitor to The University of Adelaide

On 30/10/2013 5:59 AM, Wayne Zschech wrote:
> G'day all!
>
> Does anyone have any experience on how AD can be used effectively with EM?
Are there any possibly synergies? E.g. The EM bokashi leachate goes off if
not used with in a day or so.  Could an AD reactor be of any use? Etc.
>
> Blessings,
> Wayne
>
> Blessings,
> Wayne
>
> ?????????? ? iPad
> _______________________________________________
> Digestion mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
sts.org
>
> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2013 18:55:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Richard L Vetter <r.vetter at sbcglobal.net>
To: For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion
	<digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] EM Effective Microorganisms and AD
Message-ID:
	<1383098105.29341.YahooMailNeo at web184803.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Paul....your comments are right on.?? I spent a number of years in ruminant
nutrition and along with others in research, tried to manipulate the rumen
micro flora with specific bacteria.? Yes, the microbial population could be
altered by extreme ration adjustments, but, the survival/significant
effect?of a specific microbe or yeast was nil.??
?
Out of curiosity, have you made the acquaintance of Prof. Ian
Plimmer.....author of "Heaven and Earth--global warming and the missing
science?? In my opinion, both sides of the global warming issue need to read
his historical insights and gain a perspective of climate change.
?
I have been trying to recall if we have met at some conference or event.?
Anyway, your insights are valuable, especially to some of those?within the
group who are fairly novice!!
?
One last comment.? Do you know if the very large swine operation [290,000
standing pigs]?(Singapore owners, I think) outside of Corawa has installed
an anaerobic system?? At the time, ? I worked on feasibility study for the
operation about 8 years ago, there was a potential ownership change.
?
Cheers and G'day??? Rich Vetter

R. L. Vetter, PhD; PAS;?Dipl.?ACAN; President
AGRI-BIO SYSTEMS, INC. 
2811 Edgewater Dr. Elgin, IL. 60124
Tel:847-888-2382 
Fax:847-888-1484 
Cell:630-564-8523




From: Paul Harris <paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au>
To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org 
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Digestion] EM Effective Microorganisms and AD


G'day Wayne,

As has been commented elsewhere any attempt to use "designer" microbes 
in an anaerobic digester is likely to be swamped by the microbial 
ecosystem being fed to the digester unless the feed is sterile/sterilised.

My attitude (almost certainly not shared by all group members, but I 
hope we can agree to differ!) is that nature has sorted out a system 
over thousands of years and we are not likely to make it hugely better 
by a bit of fiddling. It is a bit like the argument between artificial 
and organic fertilisers - organic has a lot of micreonutrients missing 
from synthetic formulas and similarly EM may not have the synergies 
needed for AD.

Happy digesting,

HOOROO
Mr Paul Harris
Visitor to The University of Adelaide

On 30/10/2013 5:59 AM, Wayne Zschech wrote:
> G'day all!
>
> Does anyone have any experience on how AD can be used effectively with EM?
Are there any possibly synergies? E.g. The EM bokashi leachate goes off if
not used with in a day or so.? Could an AD reactor be of any use? Etc.
>
> Blessings,
> Wayne
>
> Blessings,
> Wayne
>
> ?????????? ? iPad
> _______________________________________________
> Digestion mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Digestion at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
sts.org
>
> for more information about digestion, see
> Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>


_______________________________________________
Digestion mailing list

to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
Digestion at bioenergylists.org

to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergyli
sts.org

for more information about digestion, see
Beginner's Guide to Biogas
http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
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Message: 8
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:20:08 +1030
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au>
To: Richard L Vetter <r.vetter at sbcglobal.net>, 	For Discussion of
	Anaerobic Digestion <digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Digestion] EM Effective Microorganisms and AD
Message-ID: <527073E0.3050805 at adelaide.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

G'day Richard,

Thanks for the verification, when I am working from memory and largely 
on personal communication it is good to have some supporting evidence.

I have not met Ian Plimmer (he was at North Terrace, which I did visit 
sometimes but was usually busy) and I was 50 km away at Roseworthy 
Campus most of the time. There must have been some interesting tea room 
discussions as Prof Barry Brooks (who is VERY pro Climate Change!) was 
in the same Department.

I suspect the only place we may have met was at a Conference in 
Stuttgart in 2007.

I think the piggery did go ahead, but had a problem with a fire (it did 
not make our headlines!) or a contractor damaging the cover - I am not 
sure though.

All the best,

HOOROO
Mr Paul Harris
Visitor to The University of Adelaide

On 30/10/2013 12:25 PM, Richard L Vetter wrote:
> Paul....your comments are right on.   I spent a number of years in 
> ruminant nutrition and along with others in research, tried to 
> manipulate the rumen micro flora with specific bacteria. Yes, the 
> microbial population could be altered by extreme ration adjustments, 
> but, the survival/significant effect of a specific microbe or yeast 
> was nil.
> Out of curiosity, have you made the acquaintance of Prof. Ian 
> Plimmer.....author of "Heaven and Earth--global warming and the 
> missing science?  In my opinion, both sides of the global warming 
> issue need to read his historical insights and gain a perspective of 
> climate change.
> I have been trying to recall if we have met at some conference or 
> event.  Anyway, your insights are valuable, especially to some of 
> those within the group who are fairly novice!!
> One last comment.  Do you know if the very large swine operation 
> [290,000 standing pigs] (Singapore owners, I think) outside of Corawa 
> has installed an anaerobic system? At the time,   I worked on 
> feasibility study for the operation about 8 years ago, there was a 
> potential ownership change.
> Cheers and G'day    Rich Vetter
> R. L. Vetter, PhD; PAS; Dipl. ACAN; President
> AGRI-BIO SYSTEMS, INC.
> 2811 Edgewater Dr. Elgin, IL. 60124
> Tel:847-888-2382
> Fax:847-888-1484
> Cell:630-564-8523
>
>
>
> *From:* Paul Harris <paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au>
> *To:* digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:14 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Digestion] EM Effective Microorganisms and AD
>
> G'day Wayne,
>
> As has been commented elsewhere any attempt to use "designer" microbes
> in an anaerobic digester is likely to be swamped by the microbial
> ecosystem being fed to the digester unless the feed is sterile/sterilised.
>
> My attitude (almost certainly not shared by all group members, but I
> hope we can agree to differ!) is that nature has sorted out a system
> over thousands of years and we are not likely to make it hugely better
> by a bit of fiddling. It is a bit like the argument between artificial
> and organic fertilisers - organic has a lot of micreonutrients missing
> from synthetic formulas and similarly EM may not have the synergies
> needed for AD.
>
> Happy digesting,
>
> HOOROO
> Mr Paul Harris
> Visitor to The University of Adelaide
>
> On 30/10/2013 5:59 AM, Wayne Zschech wrote:
> > G'day all!
> >
> > Does anyone have any experience on how AD can be used effectively 
> with EM? Are there any possibly synergies? E.g. The EM bokashi 
> leachate goes off if not used with in a day or so.  Could an AD 
> reactor be of any use? Etc.
> >
> > Blessings,
> > Wayne
> >
> > Blessings,
> > Wayne
> >
> > ?????????? ? iPad
> > _______________________________________________
> > Digestion mailing list
> >
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > Digestion at bioenergylists.org <mailto:Digestion at bioenergylists.org>
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
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> >
> > for more information about digestion, see
> > Beginner's Guide to Biogas
> > http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> > and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
> >
>
>
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> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/
> and the Biogas Wiki http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
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Message: 9
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2013 08:07:00 +0000
From: David <davidf at kingdombio.com>
To: "For Discussion of Anaerobic Digestion"
	<digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org>,
	digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Photosythetically Conditioned Biogas
	Compression
Message-ID: <embf319f27-e472-4532-9b3b-a4657e8a1e76 at david-laptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

Paul and listers, Hello,

People have expressed safety concerns over the underground concrete 
designs used in China, India, Nepal and elsewhere in Asia. An explosion 
in an underground chamber would throw slurry out of the reservoir, or, 
at the worst, cause the dome to crack, throwing soil around.

I know which I would prefer: with the choice of being covered in slurry 
(if I was standing in the wrong place) or being in range of shrapnel 
from a metal tank.

Best wishes,
David
davidf at kingdombio.com

******************************************************
Dr David Fulford CEnv MEI, 15, Brandon Ave, Woodley, Reading RG5 4PU
        Tel: +44(0)118 326 9779 Mob: +44(0)7746 806401
Kingdom Bioenergy Ltd, www.kingdombio.com, davidf at kindombio.com
                                 Skype Identity: djfulford



------ Original Message ------
From: "Paul Harris" <paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au>
To: digestion at lists.bioenergylists.org
Sent: 30/10/2013 00:43:33
Subject: Re: [Digestion] Photosythetically Conditioned Biogas 
Compression
>G'day All,
>
>Variable Volume (VV) storage has a number of advantages over 
>Compression (C), which at 20 psi will not give you much advantage 
>anyway. VV can be plastic, avoiding the shrapnel problem, and saves the 
>cost/complication/energy consumption of C. You also get a simple visual 
>indication of gas production/use with VV. Several members of this list 
>can probably verify that with a plastic storage you get a hole and a 
>rapid flare of gas rather than a large explosion
>
>When we were talking about storing biogas at our University research 
>site the maintenance supervisor said we would have to use steel 
>containers and I thought to myself that I would rather stand alongside 
>a plastic VV storage during a fire than be anywhere near a steel 
>cylinder.
>
>Happy Digesting
>HOOROO Mr Paul Harris Visitor to The University of AdelaideOn 
>30/10/2013 8:00 AM, David wrote:
>>
>>
>>Jacob,
>>
>>Take 2,
>>
>>
>>On 10/29/2013 11:08 AM, Jacob Douenias wrote:
>>>Hi all!
>>>
>>>Excited to join this group. I am a researcher working at carnegie 
>>>mellon university in pittsburgh.I am working on a startup where we 
>>>are making biogas at home and biologically purifying this gas.
>>>
>>>Our gas composition at the end of our system is comprised of about 
>>>80% methane and 20% oxygen. We are concerned about the storage and 
>>>possible compression of this gas due to the presence of oxygen in the 
>>>gas. I know that 80% methane is well above the upper explosive limit 
>>>of methane (our working conditions are 15-20psi for final gas 
>>>compression and 60-80 degrees farenheight). I know it is bad practice 
>>>to have oxygen mixed with combustible gas but at our composition 
>>>should we worry about safely compressing this mixture to a low 
>>>pressure (15-20psi) and storing it in gas cylinder? I would really 
>>>love to hear what you think as I am just an architect who happens to 
>>>read a lot about biochem.
>>
>>
>>The upper limit of flammability for methane in air is of course about 
>>15%. I took a bit of time between tasks to look it up, and in pure 
>>oxygen, the upper limit is 61%. (The lower limit is about the same in 
>>either case: ~5%.) There is a formula proposed by Zabetakis which 
>>indicates-- if I've done my figgers correct-- that at 20 PSI it should 
>>increase to perhaps 63% methane in oxygen. But note: that is an 
>>extrapolation, not a test result. And I would not call 80% "well 
>>above" that extrapolated limit.
>>
>>I have to say, that particularly if I had children in the house-- you 
>>did say "biogas at home", and you did say "we"-- I would not want to 
>>take any implied risks. In the case of the information I have just 
>>given you, for example, maybe it's true, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe 
>>you didn't measure the gas ratio correctly and maybe it will change, 
>>if the presumed algae get frisky. Maybe, maybe.
>>
>>If it were me, I would have a tendency to look at the gas cylinder and 
>>wonder whether I was unintentionally planning on making a bomb with 
>>its own built-in shrapnel, and then I would begin to wonder how I 
>>might store the gas some other way, such that if the marginally 
>>unthinkable did happen, nobody would be likely to be nearby, and 
>>nothing sharp and glittering would be hurled hither and thither as a 
>>result.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>d.
>>--
>>David William House
>>"The Complete Biogas Handbook" www.completebiogas.com
>>Vahid Biogas, an alternative energy consultancy www.vahidbiogas.com
>>
>>"Make no search for water.       But find thirst,
>>And water from the very ground will burst."
>>(Rumi, a Persian mystic poet, quoted in Delight of Hearts, p. 77)
>>
>>http://bahai.us/
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________ Digestion mailing list 
>>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address 
>>Digestion at bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List 
>>Settings use the web page 
>>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/digestion_lists.bioenergy
lists.org 
>>for more information about digestion, see Beginner's Guide to Biogas 
>>http://www.adelaide.edu.au/biogas/ and the Biogas Wiki 
>>http://biogas.wikispaces.com/
>
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