[Gasification] Gasification Digest, Vol 12, Issue 4

Wayne hipkin whipkin at gmail.com
Tue Aug 9 10:12:54 PDT 2011


Recent two piston ecomotors ?are under
> fast developments which combined with GEK gasifier , operating like viking
> well proven can make possible as practical ?small energy genertion with low
> investments  HI Can I study this more indepth The two piston ecomoters??  Thanks guys Wayne

On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:04 AM,
<gasification-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. effect of steam on tar and soot production during pyrolysis?
>      (jim mason)
>   2. Re: effect of steam on tar and soot production    during
>      pyrolysis? (Greg Manning)
>   3. Re: effect of steam on tar and soot production    during
>      pyrolysis? (Pannirselvam  P.V)
>   4. Re: effect of steam on tar and soot production    during
>      pyrolysis? (Greg Manning)
>   5. Sheet metal design and prototyping (Thomas Reed)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 19:05:15 -0700
> From: jim mason <jim at allpowerlabs.org>
> To: gasification at bioenergylists.org
> Subject: [Gasification] effect of steam on tar and soot production
>        during  pyrolysis?
> Message-ID:
>        <CAB5Uy2z8D2YEkXQdQZ=q9Us9genNizYz4_4Uj2_-m8AS-Hi1nA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> on the road to reducing problems in the reactor so there are less
> issues to deal with in filtering, here's a new question.
>
> does anyone know where to look for experimental results on the impacts
> of increased steam in pyrolysis environments?   my hunch is that
> increased steam will lessen the production of PAHs and general double
> carbon bonded refractory tars.  we know we can do this by reducing
> pyrolysis temp and slowing the ramp rate, but will steam also help
> with this?
>
> the literature shows a marked decrease in soot production in
> combustion environments where there is high steam.  steam apparently
> interrupts the agglomeration on the PAH nucleus.  thus to the degree
> we can maintain adequate temps, steam is helping us with soot
> reduction.
>
> but what about during pyrolysis?  does it reduce PAH production?  do
> it have other marked effects on the type of tars make?  in general,
> are there wins to be had with steam in pyrolysis that make things
> meaningfully easier to deal with downstream?
>
> i'm about at the end of what i can do on temp control during
> pyrolysis.  i'm hoping there is another route to engage to continue
> improving the outputs of the pyrolysis stage.
>
> j
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Jim Mason
> Website: http://www.whatiamupto.com
> Current Projects:
> ?? - Gasifier Experimenters Kit (the GEK): http://www.gekgasifier.com
> ?? - Escape from Berkeley alt fuels vehicle race: www.escapefromberkeley.com
> ?? - ALL Power Labs on Twitter: http://twitter.com/allpowerlabs
> ?? - Shipyard Announce list:
> http://lists.spaceship.com/listinfo.cgi/icp-spaceship.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 21:46:17 -0500
> From: Greg Manning <a31ford at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
>        <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] effect of steam on tar and soot production
>        during pyrolysis?
> Message-ID:
>        <CAH4eSNqZWF0pRcSiaC8rf75BafSYgQaCc6DCSN9KrSOSxMzHSA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Greetings List.
>
> Jim,
>
>  There are many ways to improve all "sections" (used loosely) within a
> downdraft gasifier,  however IMO, steam in biomass is NOT one of them,
> Coal on the otherhand is the opposite.
>
> Attempting to control the reaction temperature should only be done
> within the design of the gasifier, for it's intended feedstock, any
> other methods, simply put..... fail.
>
> Design is paramount, get it right in the first place (aliken to the
> foundation of a house) once the design is right, everything else runs
> correct (level plumb and true).
>
> Greg Manning
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:05 PM, jim mason <jim at allpowerlabs.org> wrote:
>> on the road to reducing problems in the reactor so there are less
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 00:35:08 -0300
> From: "Pannirselvam  P.V" <pannirbr at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
>        <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Cc: Mark Nickelo Blanco <mark.nickelo.blanco at gmail.com>,        Rajesh sk
>        <rajeshsk76 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] effect of steam on tar and soot production
>        during pyrolysis?
> Message-ID:
>        <CADw81mdUkx93Zg9yLf88YDrDPdJDfSB9B0jdD05u0BkwQznOGw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
>  Dear Jim
>
>   Both the pyrolyis and steam gasification  depends mostly  on the
> temperture
> the  temperture higher than  1000 C , can   accelerate  more the  water gas
>  shift reaction thus  into more   hydrogen and co2 , and alos the  co2
>  decomposition  leading to more C0 ,shifting  the equilibrium leading to the
> gas with  less co2 . Thus  steam reforming into hydogen rich syn gas is
> favoured along with methan formation, less soot , tar production needing
> less , air , thus less n2 in the the gas output
>
>  in this case of high temperture , pyrolyis is not limiting factor , but
> steam reforming  is critical.
>
> Low  temperature  pyrolysis can lead to tar, char fines PAH, thus optium ,
> not only the steam ,but also the the biomass:Air :steam  are important
> parameters.
>
>  One of our  research group  project collaborator  Dr.Rajessh  has done ,
> not experimental  study , but modeling simulation and optimization of  these
> varibables as  the Phd thesis .His email .is rajesh76 at gmail.com.he also has
> more than international publications , he is presenetly working Pos doctrate
> research  regarding several  vital question you have  made here .
>
>  Even for us  who make model  , the role of steam in pyrolysis is not  very
> clear.The steam , it products , c02  , can bring down very  rapidly the
> pyrolysis temperature , then there is problem of maintain steady
> temperatures .
>
>    In this respect , the two satge  Denmak  Viking  gasifier  has two stges
> :pyrolysis , steam gasification pliot plant are  very  well demonstrated  ,
> in which the engine exhaust are used to maintain the tempertaure  in
> pyrlolysis as in GEK , the hot air and steam are recoverd from gasifier.
> Surley there are  experimental  published work  is available
> http://www.bgg.mek.dtu.dk/Publications.aspxot
>
> Not only steam air  ratio, but  how  this can be used are important points ,
> realy  we do not have  answer.
>
> if you wish to use  steam in pyrolysis , this need to be the superheated one
> , as superheated  steam is well proved to be  good for combustion , this can
> help cracking  Carbon carbon bonds, tars etc.
>
> Experimental results  are lacking but you can serach several patents,where
> you  can surely find the correct answer.
>
> Opensource google , several sites make possible very quick search  abou the
> same
>
>
>  GeK gasifier design is ok , there is an good scope to do operacional
> research  to optimize  , minimize fuel consumption , make goodquality gas ,
> improve overall energy efficienmcy.Recent two piston ecomotors  are under
> fast developments which combined with GEK gasifier , operating like viking
> well proven can make possible as practical  small energy genertion with low
> investments
>
>       As you have  open mind  and open source  ecobusiness model , making
>  money from biomass waste can be reality , an proven  very soon , yet  now
> is an dream for many not an economicaly viable business, but technicaly
> feasible  as your well made GEK gasifier working demonstrated
>
>   Wish you all the sucess and thank you for your open minded  sharing
> information  of technical information  with our list, I am happy  to see You
> as an example and good model of other business  venture bioenergy making
>  private  company  to share not only the problems , but also  share  several
> important technical solution  with open mind along with this  list members,
> eventhough top secret, stat of art technology one  can keep awy from the
> list
>
> Welcome you to bring here the problems and the real isseu and I  am sure
>  good way  will be shown by several experts
>
> Yours truely
> Pannirselvam P.V
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:05 PM, jim mason <jim at allpowerlabs.org> wrote:
>
>> on the road to reducing problems in the reactor so there are less
>> issues to deal with in filtering, here's a new question.
>>
>> does anyone know where to look for experimental results on the impacts
>> of increased steam in pyrolysis environments?   my hunch is that
>> increased steam will lessen the production of PAHs and general double
>> carbon bonded refractory tars.  we know we can do this by reducing
>> pyrolysis temp and slowing the ramp rate, but will steam also help
>> with this?
>>
>> the literature shows a marked decrease in soot production in
>> combustion environments where there is high steam.  steam apparently
>> interrupts the agglomeration on the PAH nucleus.  thus to the degree
>> we can maintain adequate temps, steam is helping us with soot
>> reduction.
>>
>> but what about during pyrolysis?  does it reduce PAH production?  do
>> it have other marked effects on the type of tars make?  in general,
>> are there wins to be had with steam in pyrolysis that make things
>> meaningfully easier to deal with downstream?
>>
>> i'm about at the end of what i can do on temp control during
>> pyrolysis.  i'm hoping there is another route to engage to continue
>> improving the outputs of the pyrolysis stage.
>>
>> j
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Jim Mason
>> Website: http://www.whatiamupto.com
>> Current Projects:
>>    - Gasifier Experimenters Kit (the GEK): http://www.gekgasifier.com
>>    - Escape from Berkeley alt fuels vehicle race:
>> www.escapefromberkeley.com
>>    - ALL Power Labs on Twitter: http://twitter.com/allpowerlabs
>>    - Shipyard Announce list:
>> http://lists.spaceship.com/listinfo.cgi/icp-spaceship.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gasification mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Gasifiers,  News and Information see our web site:
>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ************************************************
> P.V.PANNIRSELVAM
> ASSOCIATE . PROF.
> Research Group ,GPEC, Coordinator
> Computer aided  Cost engineering
>
> DEQ ? Departamento de Engenharia Qu?mica
> CT ? Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova ? Natal/RN
> Campus Universit?rio. CEP: 59.072-970
> North East,Brazil
> *******************************************
> https://sites.google.com/a/biomassa.eq.ufrn.br/sites/
>  and
> http://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/
>
>
> Fone ;Office
> 84 3215-3769 ,  Ramal 210
> Home : 84 3217-1557
>
> Mobile :558488145083
>
> Email:
> pvpa at msn.com
> panruti2002 at yahoo.com
> pannirbr at gmail.com
> pvpa at msn.com
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 05:16:01 -0500
> From: Greg Manning <a31ford at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
>        <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] effect of steam on tar and soot production
>        during pyrolysis?
> Message-ID:
>        <CAH4eSNrVNreHa+y6sSVqNVtiyFH0g=spwKoiD9u0TJa9Suw5ag at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> Greetings List, Jim, Pannirselvam.
>
> I now re-read your initial post, and wonder quoting you..
>
> Quote: "we know we can do this by reducing
>>> pyrolysis temp and slowing the ramp rate, but will steam also help
>>> with this?" < End Quote:
>
> Reducing Pyrolysis Temperature ????? this is exactly where tars and
> PAH's are created in the first place.
>
> Sorry Jim, I'll back out of this conversation now, as we are in two
> different worlds as to what makes a gasifier work correctly.
>
> Greg Manning
>
> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Pannirselvam  P.V <pannirbr at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ?Dear Jim
>> ? ?Both the pyrolyis and steam gasification ?depends mostly ?on the
>> temperture
>> the ?temperture higher than ?1000 C , can ? accelerate ?more the ?water gas
>> ?shift reaction thus ?into more ? hydrogen and co2 , and alos the ?co2
>> ?decomposition ?leading to more C0 ,shifting ?the equilibrium leading to the
>> gas with ?less co2 . Thus ?steam reforming into hydogen rich syn gas is
>> favoured along with methan formation, less soot , tar production needing
>> less , air , thus less n2 in the the gas output
>> ? in this case of high temperture , pyrolyis is not limiting factor , but
>> steam reforming ?is critical.
>> Low ?temperature ?pyrolysis can lead to tar, char fines PAH, thus optium ,
>> not only the steam ,but also the the biomass:Air :steam ?are important
>> parameters.
>> ? One of our ?research group ?project collaborator ?Dr.Rajessh ?has done ,
>> not experimental ?study , but modeling simulation and optimization of ?these
>> varibables as ?the Phd thesis .His email .is rajesh76 at gmail.com.he also has
>> more than international publications , he is presenetly working Pos doctrate
>> research ?regarding several ?vital question you have ?made here .
>> ? Even for us ?who make model ?, the role of steam in pyrolysis is not ?very
>> clear.The steam , it products , c02 ?, can bring down very ?rapidly the
>> pyrolysis temperature , then there is problem of maintain steady
>> temperatures .
>> ? ? In this respect , the two satge ?Denmak ?Viking ?gasifier ?has two stges
>> :pyrolysis , steam gasification pliot plant are ?very ?well demonstrated ?,
>> in which the engine exhaust are used to maintain the tempertaure ?in
>> pyrlolysis as in GEK , the hot air and steam are recoverd from gasifier.
>> Surley there are ?experimental ?published work ?is available
>> http://www.bgg.mek.dtu.dk/Publications.aspxot
>> Not only steam air ?ratio, but ?how ?this can be used are important points ,
>> realy ?we do not have ?answer.
>> if you wish to use ?steam in pyrolysis , this need to be the superheated one
>> , as superheated ?steam is well proved to be ?good for combustion , this can
>> help cracking ?Carbon carbon bonds, tars etc.
>> Experimental results ?are lacking but you can serach several patents,where
>> you ?can surely find the correct answer.
>> Opensource google , several sites make possible very quick search ?abou the
>> same
>>
>> ? GeK gasifier design is ok , there is an good scope to do operacional
>> research ?to optimize ?, minimize fuel consumption , make goodquality gas ,
>> improve overall energy efficienmcy.Recent two piston ecomotors ?are under
>> fast developments which combined with GEK gasifier , operating like viking
>> well proven can make possible as practical ?small energy genertion with low
>> investments
>> ? ? ? ?As you have ?open mind ?and open source ?ecobusiness model , making
>> ?money from biomass waste can be reality , an proven ?very soon , yet ?now
>> is an dream for many not an economicaly viable business, but technicaly
>> feasible ?as your well made GEK gasifier working demonstrated
>> ? ?Wish you all the sucess and thank you for your open minded ?sharing
>> information ?of technical information ?with our list, I am happy ?to see You
>> as an example and good model of other business ?venture bioenergy making
>> ?private ?company ?to share not only the problems , but also ?share ?several
>> important technical solution ?with open mind along with this ?list members,
>> eventhough top secret, stat of art technology one ?can keep awy from the
>> list
>> Welcome you to bring here the problems and the real?isseu?and I ?am sure
>> ?good way ?will be shown by several experts
>> Yours truely
>> Pannirselvam P.V
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:05 PM, jim mason <jim at allpowerlabs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> on the road to reducing problems in the reactor so there are less
>>> issues to deal with in filtering, here's a new question.
>>>
>>> does anyone know where to look for experimental results on the impacts
>>> of increased steam in pyrolysis environments? ? my hunch is that
>>> increased steam will lessen the production of PAHs and general double
>>> carbon bonded refractory tars. ?we know we can do this by reducing
>>> pyrolysis temp and slowing the ramp rate, but will steam also help
>>> with this?
>>>
>>> the literature shows a marked decrease in soot production in
>>> combustion environments where there is high steam. ?steam apparently
>>> interrupts the agglomeration on the PAH nucleus. ?thus to the degree
>>> we can maintain adequate temps, steam is helping us with soot
>>> reduction.
>>>
>>> but what about during pyrolysis? ?does it reduce PAH production? ?do
>>> it have other marked effects on the type of tars make? ?in general,
>>> are there wins to be had with steam in pyrolysis that make things
>>> meaningfully easier to deal with downstream?
>>>
>>> i'm about at the end of what i can do on temp control during
>>> pyrolysis. ?i'm hoping there is another route to engage to continue
>>> improving the outputs of the pyrolysis stage.
>>>
>>> j
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Jim Mason
>>> Website: http://www.whatiamupto.com
>>> Current Projects:
>>> ?? - Gasifier Experimenters Kit (the GEK): http://www.gekgasifier.com
>>> ?? - Escape from Berkeley alt fuels vehicle race:
>>> www.escapefromberkeley.com
>>> ?? - ALL Power Labs on Twitter: http://twitter.com/allpowerlabs
>>> ?? - Shipyard Announce list:
>>> http://lists.spaceship.com/listinfo.cgi/icp-spaceship.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gasification mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> for more Gasifiers, ?News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ************************************************
>> P.V.PANNIRSELVAM
>> ASSOCIATE . PROF.
>> Research Group ,GPEC, Coordinator
>> Computer aided? Cost engineering
>>
>> DEQ ? Departamento de Engenharia Qu?mica
>> CT ? Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova ? Natal/RN
>> Campus Universit?rio. CEP: 59.072-970
>> North East,Brazil
>> *******************************************
>> https://sites.google.com/a/biomassa.eq.ufrn.br/sites/
>> ?and
>> http://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/
>>
>>
>> Fone ;Office
>> 84 3215-3769 ,? Ramal 210
>> Home : 84 3217-1557
>>
>> Mobile :558488145083
>>
>> Email:
>> pvpa at msn.com
>> panruti2002 at yahoo.com
>> pannirbr at gmail.com
>> pvpa at msn.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gasification mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Gasifiers, ?News and Information see our web site:
>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ?Regards,
>
> Greg Manning,
> Brandon, Manitoba, Canada
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 16:15:32 -0400
> From: Thomas Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com>
> To: STOVES <stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>,   Discussion of
>        biomass pyrolysis and gasification
>        <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>,        Shivayam Ellis
>        <shivayam.ellis at gmail.com>, Agua Das <aguadas at onebox.com>,      Paul
>        Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>, William Ayres <waayres at kc.rr.com>,
>        Michael Antal <mantal at hawaii.edu>, Julia Hasty <jay at allpowerlabs.org>,
>        Art Krenzel <phoenix98604 at msn.com>, Art Lilley <artsolar at aol.com>
> Subject: [Gasification] Sheet metal design and prototyping
> Message-ID: <9415B8C5-2385-4340-96AE-641E8F210B27 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Dear all
>
> My exceedingly clever (God) Grandson,  Shivayam Ellis (son of AguaDas Ellis) is starting a service at  www.now cut.com to provide prototype sheet metal parts from his X-Y cutting table, described below.
>
> Hard to beat.
>
> TomReed - BEF
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Dr Thomas B Reed
> President, The Biomass Energy Foundation
> www.Woodgas.com
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gasification mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>
> for more Gasifiers,  News and Information see our web site:
> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
> End of Gasification Digest, Vol 12, Issue 4
> *******************************************
>



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