[Gasification] Gasification Digest, Vol 12, Issue 4
Wayne hipkin
whipkin at gmail.com
Tue Aug 9 12:20:54 CDT 2011
Has anyone try d Canola Or rape Straw As feedstock Pelletized Or??
Appre Thanx A Question put to me by Alberta Canada Farmer
On Tue, Aug 9, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Wayne hipkin <whipkin at gmail.com> wrote:
> Recent two piston ecomotors ?are under
>> fast developments which combined with GEK gasifier , operating like viking
>> well proven can make possible as practical ?small energy genertion with low
>> investments HI Can I study this more indepth The two piston ecomoters?? Thanks guys Wayne
>
> On Mon, Aug 8, 2011 at 8:04 AM,
> <gasification-request at lists.bioenergylists.org> wrote:
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>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. effect of steam on tar and soot production during pyrolysis?
>> (jim mason)
>> 2. Re: effect of steam on tar and soot production during
>> pyrolysis? (Greg Manning)
>> 3. Re: effect of steam on tar and soot production during
>> pyrolysis? (Pannirselvam P.V)
>> 4. Re: effect of steam on tar and soot production during
>> pyrolysis? (Greg Manning)
>> 5. Sheet metal design and prototyping (Thomas Reed)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 19:05:15 -0700
>> From: jim mason <jim at allpowerlabs.org>
>> To: gasification at bioenergylists.org
>> Subject: [Gasification] effect of steam on tar and soot production
>> during pyrolysis?
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAB5Uy2z8D2YEkXQdQZ=q9Us9genNizYz4_4Uj2_-m8AS-Hi1nA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> on the road to reducing problems in the reactor so there are less
>> issues to deal with in filtering, here's a new question.
>>
>> does anyone know where to look for experimental results on the impacts
>> of increased steam in pyrolysis environments? my hunch is that
>> increased steam will lessen the production of PAHs and general double
>> carbon bonded refractory tars. we know we can do this by reducing
>> pyrolysis temp and slowing the ramp rate, but will steam also help
>> with this?
>>
>> the literature shows a marked decrease in soot production in
>> combustion environments where there is high steam. steam apparently
>> interrupts the agglomeration on the PAH nucleus. thus to the degree
>> we can maintain adequate temps, steam is helping us with soot
>> reduction.
>>
>> but what about during pyrolysis? does it reduce PAH production? do
>> it have other marked effects on the type of tars make? in general,
>> are there wins to be had with steam in pyrolysis that make things
>> meaningfully easier to deal with downstream?
>>
>> i'm about at the end of what i can do on temp control during
>> pyrolysis. i'm hoping there is another route to engage to continue
>> improving the outputs of the pyrolysis stage.
>>
>> j
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Jim Mason
>> Website: http://www.whatiamupto.com
>> Current Projects:
>> ?? - Gasifier Experimenters Kit (the GEK): http://www.gekgasifier.com
>> ?? - Escape from Berkeley alt fuels vehicle race: www.escapefromberkeley.com
>> ?? - ALL Power Labs on Twitter: http://twitter.com/allpowerlabs
>> ?? - Shipyard Announce list:
>> http://lists.spaceship.com/listinfo.cgi/icp-spaceship.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 21:46:17 -0500
>> From: Greg Manning <a31ford at gmail.com>
>> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
>> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Gasification] effect of steam on tar and soot production
>> during pyrolysis?
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAH4eSNqZWF0pRcSiaC8rf75BafSYgQaCc6DCSN9KrSOSxMzHSA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Greetings List.
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> There are many ways to improve all "sections" (used loosely) within a
>> downdraft gasifier, however IMO, steam in biomass is NOT one of them,
>> Coal on the otherhand is the opposite.
>>
>> Attempting to control the reaction temperature should only be done
>> within the design of the gasifier, for it's intended feedstock, any
>> other methods, simply put..... fail.
>>
>> Design is paramount, get it right in the first place (aliken to the
>> foundation of a house) once the design is right, everything else runs
>> correct (level plumb and true).
>>
>> Greg Manning
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 9:05 PM, jim mason <jim at allpowerlabs.org> wrote:
>>> on the road to reducing problems in the reactor so there are less
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 00:35:08 -0300
>> From: "Pannirselvam P.V" <pannirbr at gmail.com>
>> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
>> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Cc: Mark Nickelo Blanco <mark.nickelo.blanco at gmail.com>, Rajesh sk
>> <rajeshsk76 at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Gasification] effect of steam on tar and soot production
>> during pyrolysis?
>> Message-ID:
>> <CADw81mdUkx93Zg9yLf88YDrDPdJDfSB9B0jdD05u0BkwQznOGw at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>
>> Dear Jim
>>
>> Both the pyrolyis and steam gasification depends mostly on the
>> temperture
>> the temperture higher than 1000 C , can accelerate more the water gas
>> shift reaction thus into more hydrogen and co2 , and alos the co2
>> decomposition leading to more C0 ,shifting the equilibrium leading to the
>> gas with less co2 . Thus steam reforming into hydogen rich syn gas is
>> favoured along with methan formation, less soot , tar production needing
>> less , air , thus less n2 in the the gas output
>>
>> in this case of high temperture , pyrolyis is not limiting factor , but
>> steam reforming is critical.
>>
>> Low temperature pyrolysis can lead to tar, char fines PAH, thus optium ,
>> not only the steam ,but also the the biomass:Air :steam are important
>> parameters.
>>
>> One of our research group project collaborator Dr.Rajessh has done ,
>> not experimental study , but modeling simulation and optimization of these
>> varibables as the Phd thesis .His email .is rajesh76 at gmail.com.he also has
>> more than international publications , he is presenetly working Pos doctrate
>> research regarding several vital question you have made here .
>>
>> Even for us who make model , the role of steam in pyrolysis is not very
>> clear.The steam , it products , c02 , can bring down very rapidly the
>> pyrolysis temperature , then there is problem of maintain steady
>> temperatures .
>>
>> In this respect , the two satge Denmak Viking gasifier has two stges
>> :pyrolysis , steam gasification pliot plant are very well demonstrated ,
>> in which the engine exhaust are used to maintain the tempertaure in
>> pyrlolysis as in GEK , the hot air and steam are recoverd from gasifier.
>> Surley there are experimental published work is available
>> http://www.bgg.mek.dtu.dk/Publications.aspxot
>>
>> Not only steam air ratio, but how this can be used are important points ,
>> realy we do not have answer.
>>
>> if you wish to use steam in pyrolysis , this need to be the superheated one
>> , as superheated steam is well proved to be good for combustion , this can
>> help cracking Carbon carbon bonds, tars etc.
>>
>> Experimental results are lacking but you can serach several patents,where
>> you can surely find the correct answer.
>>
>> Opensource google , several sites make possible very quick search abou the
>> same
>>
>>
>> GeK gasifier design is ok , there is an good scope to do operacional
>> research to optimize , minimize fuel consumption , make goodquality gas ,
>> improve overall energy efficienmcy.Recent two piston ecomotors are under
>> fast developments which combined with GEK gasifier , operating like viking
>> well proven can make possible as practical small energy genertion with low
>> investments
>>
>> As you have open mind and open source ecobusiness model , making
>> money from biomass waste can be reality , an proven very soon , yet now
>> is an dream for many not an economicaly viable business, but technicaly
>> feasible as your well made GEK gasifier working demonstrated
>>
>> Wish you all the sucess and thank you for your open minded sharing
>> information of technical information with our list, I am happy to see You
>> as an example and good model of other business venture bioenergy making
>> private company to share not only the problems , but also share several
>> important technical solution with open mind along with this list members,
>> eventhough top secret, stat of art technology one can keep awy from the
>> list
>>
>> Welcome you to bring here the problems and the real isseu and I am sure
>> good way will be shown by several experts
>>
>> Yours truely
>> Pannirselvam P.V
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:05 PM, jim mason <jim at allpowerlabs.org> wrote:
>>
>>> on the road to reducing problems in the reactor so there are less
>>> issues to deal with in filtering, here's a new question.
>>>
>>> does anyone know where to look for experimental results on the impacts
>>> of increased steam in pyrolysis environments? my hunch is that
>>> increased steam will lessen the production of PAHs and general double
>>> carbon bonded refractory tars. we know we can do this by reducing
>>> pyrolysis temp and slowing the ramp rate, but will steam also help
>>> with this?
>>>
>>> the literature shows a marked decrease in soot production in
>>> combustion environments where there is high steam. steam apparently
>>> interrupts the agglomeration on the PAH nucleus. thus to the degree
>>> we can maintain adequate temps, steam is helping us with soot
>>> reduction.
>>>
>>> but what about during pyrolysis? does it reduce PAH production? do
>>> it have other marked effects on the type of tars make? in general,
>>> are there wins to be had with steam in pyrolysis that make things
>>> meaningfully easier to deal with downstream?
>>>
>>> i'm about at the end of what i can do on temp control during
>>> pyrolysis. i'm hoping there is another route to engage to continue
>>> improving the outputs of the pyrolysis stage.
>>>
>>> j
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Jim Mason
>>> Website: http://www.whatiamupto.com
>>> Current Projects:
>>> - Gasifier Experimenters Kit (the GEK): http://www.gekgasifier.com
>>> - Escape from Berkeley alt fuels vehicle race:
>>> www.escapefromberkeley.com
>>> - ALL Power Labs on Twitter: http://twitter.com/allpowerlabs
>>> - Shipyard Announce list:
>>> http://lists.spaceship.com/listinfo.cgi/icp-spaceship.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gasification mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ************************************************
>> P.V.PANNIRSELVAM
>> ASSOCIATE . PROF.
>> Research Group ,GPEC, Coordinator
>> Computer aided Cost engineering
>>
>> DEQ ? Departamento de Engenharia Qu?mica
>> CT ? Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova ? Natal/RN
>> Campus Universit?rio. CEP: 59.072-970
>> North East,Brazil
>> *******************************************
>> https://sites.google.com/a/biomassa.eq.ufrn.br/sites/
>> and
>> http://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/
>>
>>
>> Fone ;Office
>> 84 3215-3769 , Ramal 210
>> Home : 84 3217-1557
>>
>> Mobile :558488145083
>>
>> Email:
>> pvpa at msn.com
>> panruti2002 at yahoo.com
>> pannirbr at gmail.com
>> pvpa at msn.com
>> -------------- next part --------------
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 05:16:01 -0500
>> From: Greg Manning <a31ford at gmail.com>
>> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
>> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Gasification] effect of steam on tar and soot production
>> during pyrolysis?
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAH4eSNrVNreHa+y6sSVqNVtiyFH0g=spwKoiD9u0TJa9Suw5ag at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>
>> Greetings List, Jim, Pannirselvam.
>>
>> I now re-read your initial post, and wonder quoting you..
>>
>> Quote: "we know we can do this by reducing
>>>> pyrolysis temp and slowing the ramp rate, but will steam also help
>>>> with this?" < End Quote:
>>
>> Reducing Pyrolysis Temperature ????? this is exactly where tars and
>> PAH's are created in the first place.
>>
>> Sorry Jim, I'll back out of this conversation now, as we are in two
>> different worlds as to what makes a gasifier work correctly.
>>
>> Greg Manning
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Pannirselvam P.V <pannirbr at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> ?Dear Jim
>>> ? ?Both the pyrolyis and steam gasification ?depends mostly ?on the
>>> temperture
>>> the ?temperture higher than ?1000 C , can ? accelerate ?more the ?water gas
>>> ?shift reaction thus ?into more ? hydrogen and co2 , and alos the ?co2
>>> ?decomposition ?leading to more C0 ,shifting ?the equilibrium leading to the
>>> gas with ?less co2 . Thus ?steam reforming into hydogen rich syn gas is
>>> favoured along with methan formation, less soot , tar production needing
>>> less , air , thus less n2 in the the gas output
>>> ? in this case of high temperture , pyrolyis is not limiting factor , but
>>> steam reforming ?is critical.
>>> Low ?temperature ?pyrolysis can lead to tar, char fines PAH, thus optium ,
>>> not only the steam ,but also the the biomass:Air :steam ?are important
>>> parameters.
>>> ? One of our ?research group ?project collaborator ?Dr.Rajessh ?has done ,
>>> not experimental ?study , but modeling simulation and optimization of ?these
>>> varibables as ?the Phd thesis .His email .is rajesh76 at gmail.com.he also has
>>> more than international publications , he is presenetly working Pos doctrate
>>> research ?regarding several ?vital question you have ?made here .
>>> ? Even for us ?who make model ?, the role of steam in pyrolysis is not ?very
>>> clear.The steam , it products , c02 ?, can bring down very ?rapidly the
>>> pyrolysis temperature , then there is problem of maintain steady
>>> temperatures .
>>> ? ? In this respect , the two satge ?Denmak ?Viking ?gasifier ?has two stges
>>> :pyrolysis , steam gasification pliot plant are ?very ?well demonstrated ?,
>>> in which the engine exhaust are used to maintain the tempertaure ?in
>>> pyrlolysis as in GEK , the hot air and steam are recoverd from gasifier.
>>> Surley there are ?experimental ?published work ?is available
>>> http://www.bgg.mek.dtu.dk/Publications.aspxot
>>> Not only steam air ?ratio, but ?how ?this can be used are important points ,
>>> realy ?we do not have ?answer.
>>> if you wish to use ?steam in pyrolysis , this need to be the superheated one
>>> , as superheated ?steam is well proved to be ?good for combustion , this can
>>> help cracking ?Carbon carbon bonds, tars etc.
>>> Experimental results ?are lacking but you can serach several patents,where
>>> you ?can surely find the correct answer.
>>> Opensource google , several sites make possible very quick search ?abou the
>>> same
>>>
>>> ? GeK gasifier design is ok , there is an good scope to do operacional
>>> research ?to optimize ?, minimize fuel consumption , make goodquality gas ,
>>> improve overall energy efficienmcy.Recent two piston ecomotors ?are under
>>> fast developments which combined with GEK gasifier , operating like viking
>>> well proven can make possible as practical ?small energy genertion with low
>>> investments
>>> ? ? ? ?As you have ?open mind ?and open source ?ecobusiness model , making
>>> ?money from biomass waste can be reality , an proven ?very soon , yet ?now
>>> is an dream for many not an economicaly viable business, but technicaly
>>> feasible ?as your well made GEK gasifier working demonstrated
>>> ? ?Wish you all the sucess and thank you for your open minded ?sharing
>>> information ?of technical information ?with our list, I am happy ?to see You
>>> as an example and good model of other business ?venture bioenergy making
>>> ?private ?company ?to share not only the problems , but also ?share ?several
>>> important technical solution ?with open mind along with this ?list members,
>>> eventhough top secret, stat of art technology one ?can keep awy from the
>>> list
>>> Welcome you to bring here the problems and the real?isseu?and I ?am sure
>>> ?good way ?will be shown by several experts
>>> Yours truely
>>> Pannirselvam P.V
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 7, 2011 at 11:05 PM, jim mason <jim at allpowerlabs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> on the road to reducing problems in the reactor so there are less
>>>> issues to deal with in filtering, here's a new question.
>>>>
>>>> does anyone know where to look for experimental results on the impacts
>>>> of increased steam in pyrolysis environments? ? my hunch is that
>>>> increased steam will lessen the production of PAHs and general double
>>>> carbon bonded refractory tars. ?we know we can do this by reducing
>>>> pyrolysis temp and slowing the ramp rate, but will steam also help
>>>> with this?
>>>>
>>>> the literature shows a marked decrease in soot production in
>>>> combustion environments where there is high steam. ?steam apparently
>>>> interrupts the agglomeration on the PAH nucleus. ?thus to the degree
>>>> we can maintain adequate temps, steam is helping us with soot
>>>> reduction.
>>>>
>>>> but what about during pyrolysis? ?does it reduce PAH production? ?do
>>>> it have other marked effects on the type of tars make? ?in general,
>>>> are there wins to be had with steam in pyrolysis that make things
>>>> meaningfully easier to deal with downstream?
>>>>
>>>> i'm about at the end of what i can do on temp control during
>>>> pyrolysis. ?i'm hoping there is another route to engage to continue
>>>> improving the outputs of the pyrolysis stage.
>>>>
>>>> j
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Jim Mason
>>>> Website: http://www.whatiamupto.com
>>>> Current Projects:
>>>> ?? - Gasifier Experimenters Kit (the GEK): http://www.gekgasifier.com
>>>> ?? - Escape from Berkeley alt fuels vehicle race:
>>>> www.escapefromberkeley.com
>>>> ?? - ALL Power Labs on Twitter: http://twitter.com/allpowerlabs
>>>> ?? - Shipyard Announce list:
>>>> http://lists.spaceship.com/listinfo.cgi/icp-spaceship.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Gasification mailing list
>>>>
>>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>>>
>>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>>
>>>> for more Gasifiers, ?News and Information see our web site:
>>>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> ************************************************
>>> P.V.PANNIRSELVAM
>>> ASSOCIATE . PROF.
>>> Research Group ,GPEC, Coordinator
>>> Computer aided? Cost engineering
>>>
>>> DEQ ? Departamento de Engenharia Qu?mica
>>> CT ? Centro de Tecnologia / UFRN, Lagoa Nova ? Natal/RN
>>> Campus Universit?rio. CEP: 59.072-970
>>> North East,Brazil
>>> *******************************************
>>> https://sites.google.com/a/biomassa.eq.ufrn.br/sites/
>>> ?and
>>> http://ecosyseng.wetpaint.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> Fone ;Office
>>> 84 3215-3769 ,? Ramal 210
>>> Home : 84 3217-1557
>>>
>>> Mobile :558488145083
>>>
>>> Email:
>>> pvpa at msn.com
>>> panruti2002 at yahoo.com
>>> pannirbr at gmail.com
>>> pvpa at msn.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Gasification mailing list
>>>
>>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>>
>>> for more Gasifiers, ?News and Information see our web site:
>>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ?Regards,
>>
>> Greg Manning,
>> Brandon, Manitoba, Canada
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2011 16:15:32 -0400
>> From: Thomas Reed <tombreed2010 at gmail.com>
>> To: STOVES <stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org>, Discussion of
>> biomass pyrolysis and gasification
>> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>, Shivayam Ellis
>> <shivayam.ellis at gmail.com>, Agua Das <aguadas at onebox.com>, Paul
>> Anderson <psanders at ilstu.edu>, William Ayres <waayres at kc.rr.com>,
>> Michael Antal <mantal at hawaii.edu>, Julia Hasty <jay at allpowerlabs.org>,
>> Art Krenzel <phoenix98604 at msn.com>, Art Lilley <artsolar at aol.com>
>> Subject: [Gasification] Sheet metal design and prototyping
>> Message-ID: <9415B8C5-2385-4340-96AE-641E8F210B27 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Dear all
>>
>> My exceedingly clever (God) Grandson, Shivayam Ellis (son of AguaDas Ellis) is starting a service at www.now cut.com to provide prototype sheet metal parts from his X-Y cutting table, described below.
>>
>> Hard to beat.
>>
>> TomReed - BEF
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dr Thomas B Reed
>> President, The Biomass Energy Foundation
>> www.Woodgas.com
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gasification mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> End of Gasification Digest, Vol 12, Issue 4
>> *******************************************
>>
>
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