[Gasification] [Digestion] Karve connecting Biochar and Biogas
Kevin
kchisholm at ca.inter.net
Sat Oct 8 06:02:10 CDT 2011
Dear Mark
You are correct. I picked a bad example... clearly, the yeast in a fermentation reaction must exist in water in a liquid phase, and the liquid water has an insignificant volume. Would you agree that if the stated reaction was carried out in an "inorganic manner" with the water in a steam form, rather than one requiring water in the liquid form, that it would be favoured by increased pressure?
Best wishes,
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Ludlow
To: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 8:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Gasification] [Digestion] Karve connecting Biochar and Biogas
# In a fermentation reaction, "Sugar ----> Alcohol + CO2", all other things being equal, this would be favoured by low pressure, and/or by removal of CO2, a "product of the reaction." If the reaction producing Methane was:
6 CO + 2 H2O ---> 2 CH4+ 4 CO2,
it would be favoured by high pressure, in that it starts with 8 volumes of reactants, and it yields 6 volumes of reactants. Again, this reaction would be improved by removing the products.
Actually, the stoichiometry is correct across the reaction you use as an example, Kevin, but it's a molar comparison you are making not a volumetric one. It very difficult to compare compressible gasses and liquids volumetrically unless the gasses are at their critical pressure where the physical properties of the substance in both the liquid and gaseous states converge.
Pressure affects the reaction kinetics of gas-phase reactions because to probability of collisions between reacting species is improved. The internal energy of virtually incompressible liquids under high pressure is not much affected, at least when compared to the effect of raising the temperature.
Best, Mark
From: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 3:40 PM
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
Subject: Re: [Gasification] [Digestion] Karve connecting Biochar and Biogas
Dear GF
----- Original Message -----
From: GF
To: mark at ludlow.com ; gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Gasification] [Digestion] Karve connecting Biochar and Biogas
Hi Mark.
I think my message was incoherent. When I mention the build up of pressure in a vessel containing multiplying organisms, I did not mention the presence of "heat" which is the basis of Luis Pasteur’s method of sterilization or the speed at which the pressure builds, which might entail an adverse heat reaction, Yeast seems to build up pressure of several atmospheres if contained in a sealed container, does this enhance the reaction or slow it down, and what are the "limits"?
# In a fermentation reaction, "Sugar ----> Alcohol + CO2", all other things being equal, this would be favoured by low pressure, and/or by removal of CO2, a "product of the reaction." If the reaction producing Methane was:
6 CO + 2 H2O ---> 2 CH4+ 4 CO2,
it would be favoured by high pressure, in that it starts with 8 volumes of reactants, and it yields 6 volumes of reactants. Again, this reaction would be improved by removing the products.
Studies at the bottom of the Pacific Trench show bacteria alive and well together with larger forms of life. My question goes UN answered.
Will gas producing bacteria perform” faster” in a pressure retaining environment?
# All other things being equal, reaction speed is favoured by higher temperature, higher concentration of reactants, and low concentration of products of the reaction. Higher pressure tends to move a reaction in the direction of lower volume. On teh other hand, exothermic reactions are favoured by cooling, and endothermic reactions are favoured by heating.
# Now, having said all that, the fact that a bacteria or yeast is a living species, it may be that "reaction conditions" may have to be varied to optomise teh "living conditions" for the bacteria/yeast, and thermodynamic conditions may have to be given second place.
Thus producing high pressure gas PDQ.
Im talking about high pressure here, 14000 psi. if you put your bacteria and nutrient in a respectable container without any air space the pressure would rise quite fast.
Of course a sudden decompression or re-compression may kill it, as you suggest but that is not My question.
# Obviously, if the desired reactions seem to work well for such bacteria at 14,000 psi, then that would be the conditions to apply to them to drive that reaction. In th case of beer yeasts, they seem to work well at atmospheric pressure ranges... say from .5 to 2X atmospheric. Much higher pressures may stall them out.
Best wishes,
Kevin
GF
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark E. Ludlow <mark at ludlow.com>
To: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification' <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Fri, Oct 7, 2011 3:20 am
Subject: Re: [Gasification] [Digestion] Karve connecting Biochar and Biogas
Geoff:
High pressure is an accepted way to pasteurize juices and eliminate vibrio in and extend the shelf life of oysters. Water is virtually incompressible. Bacteria stay in equilibrium with their environment but react to sudden changes in pressure.
Mark
From: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of GF
Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 5:51 PM
To: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Gasification] [Digestion] Karve connecting Biochar and Biogas
I seem to remeber the filter beds laid down with "coke"derived from the GAS WORKS to enhance the bacterial action on sewage.It is interesting to postulate the possibilities of testing other ziolite qualities in other materials than char. The reaction of bacteria over a nutriant soaked porous media especially when it is soaked with recirculated liquids from behind the scum board which retains the larger solids. This raises a question I have long pondered. Is microbial action accelerated by pressure. If this reaction is contained within a pressure vessel? For instance :
what sort of result could we expect if this bacterial action took place at say 9000lb per sq inch, give or take a few atmospheres. I have heard that beer bottles explode if unchecked during fermentation, is the generation of gasses increased with pressure forcing the nutrient down the throat of the microbes as it were?
GF
-----Original Message-----
From: back40 <back40 at gmail.com>
To: paul.harris <paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au>; Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Sent: Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:01 pm
Subject: Re: [Gasification] [Digestion] Karve connecting Biochar and Biogas
I wonder if this is relevant:http://newscenter.lbl.gov/feature-stories/2011/10/05/soil-carbon/ "Michael Schmidt, a co-author of the Nature paper from the Universityof Zurich, has already found that biochar, which is charred materialfrom wildfires or a kiln, is not stable as previously believed. Italso readily decomposes. Some scientists had believed that biocharcould be used to sequester carbon, but this may not be the case." On 10/6/11, Paul Harris <paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au> wrote:> G’day All,> > > > For the “non digesters” in particular some anaerobic digesters are packed> with plastic rings/balls or other media to provide a surface for bacteria,> so what Dr Karve has possibly done (I am guessing here) is provided “homes”> for a lot more bacteria so they are not washed out. This is good for> solutions but not so good if there are solids in the waste stream.> > > > The other possibility is that the extra carbon has restored the C:N ratio.> > > > Could you give more details of what you did Dr Karve, if it is possible (I> understand you may have some commercial interests to protect)?> > > > Happy digesting,> > HOOROO> > > > Mr. Paul Harris, Room 202 Charles Hawker Building, Faculty of Sciences, The> University of Adelaide,> > Waite Campus, PMB 1, Glen Osmond SA 5064 Ph : +61 8 8303 7880 Fax :> +61 8 8303 4386> > Roseworthy Campus, Ph : +61 8 8303 7929> > mailto:paul.harris at adelaide.edu.au> http://www.adelaide.edu.au/directory/paul.harris> > > > CRICOS Provider Number 00123M> > This email message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains> information that may be confidential and/or copyright. If you are not the> intended recipient please notify the sender by reply email and immediately> delete this email. Use, disclosure or reproduction of this email by anyone> other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. No> representation is made that this email or any attachments are free of> viruses. Virus scanning is recommended and is the responsibility of the> recipient.> > > > From: digestion-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org> [mailto:digestion-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of> rongretlarson at comcast.net> Sent: Thursday, 6 October 2011 1:35 PM> To: Anand Karve; gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org; Discussion of> biomass; biochar; digestion> Subject: [Digestion] Karve connecting Biochar and Biogas> > > > AD (cc four lists):> > I have not previously seen the connection between Biochar and Biogas> that you described (below) today on the gasification list. In> particular, you say you ".. filled the digester> with charcoal, my system accepted three times the normal daily input> and produced three times as much gas."> I think what you describe can be a very powerful push for both Biochar and> Biogas. Can you describe what you have learned a little more?> > I know too little of digesters, so this is not clear. I think I know> your kitchen-sized inverted "barrel" gas chamber and think I understand the> last part - of getting three times as much gas in the next 24 hours or less> (and 3X is a huge change!). Does the idea of accepting three times more> mean essentially the same thing? I would think you could "jam" any amount> in; what limits acceptance?> > Do you agree that this is very important new information? Do you agree> this information could help speed up both technologies? I believe there is> wide agreement that Biochar benefits from added biological material (that> would not be long-lived from a sequestration perspective). Is there any> reason to think that the traditional use of digester effluent for ag> improvements will be in any way harmed if it is continued through the> addition of carbon-negative Biochar? Should this not promote sales of your> charcoal-making stoves?> > If I haven't asked quite the right question - please answer the right> one. And congratulations on learning and reporting this.> > Ron> > -- Regards,Gary Jones _______________________________________________Gasification mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email addressGasification at bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web pagehttp://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/_______________________________________________Gasification mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email addressGasification at bioenergylists.org to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web pagehttp://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
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