[Gasification] Potential Gasification Winner?

Sun Jul 29 07:23:19 CDT 2012

Dear All - and Tom

There are many challenges to solved before gasifiers are commercial and competitive.

I can only agree to you observations about some fantastic projects with too much money and too little technical competence. These projects are found every where in the world.

What is missing in 95 % of the projects I see is that "some body" did not sit down and ask a few simple questions - most important - listened to the answers.
Why is it so? - I think it is because it would stop 80 % of all projects.

I Denmark we have developed a dozen of small scale gasifiers since 1985. The basic business idea was to take some cheap fuel (100%) and produce 25 % expensive electricity and 50 % cheap heat.
But  - now heat is more expensive than electricity - and the cost level we have reached is 2-10 times the market price.
And of course none of the plants are no where near a commercial product (apart from one that is close to - but 2-4 times too expensive) because the investors are looking for projects that have a chance of being competitive with in 2-10 years.

If I should give (I some times do - but not sure they listen) an investor an advice - would I suggest small scale gasification? - NO
If I should give (I do that very often - and I am sure they do not listen) a politician an advice of how to reduce global warming - would I suggest small scale gasification? - Yes - probably - but I would advice him/her to be sure that the money are invested in such a way that new interesting technologies have higher priority than a smart feature to a fluidbed or an updraft gasifier.

The consequence of that is that my 10-15 years of biomass gasification know-how is almost only relevant to tell you what not to do - and not what to do.

Some day something interesting will come - we will only see it if we listen and see.

It might come from strange EU supported projects or from USA VC financed projects or from a university in Indonesia.

Best regards

Thomas

Fra: gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] På vegne af LINVENT at aol.com
Sendt: 29. juli 2012 00:59
Til: tmiles at trmiles.com; Doug.Williams at orcon.net.nz; gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
Emne: Re: [Gasification] Potential Gasification Winner?

Dear Tom M,
     I think that just because a system operates in EU environs has limited bearing on it's success in the US or other areas because the EU has active gov't support of their renewable energy programs to a much larger degree than here in the US. Also, renewable energy rates in Italy particularly, are really astronomical and one can afford a lot of costs not tolerated here.
     From my first hand experiece there, the Italian regulatory system is loosey-goosey. The one Italian I was aware of there was arrested, indicted for 28 charges of defrauding the government, held under house arrest pending trial and then the prosecutor dropped all the charges. I know first hand he and his partner were guilty.
     Some of the EU incinerators operate in excess of permitted levels, but are not shut down because there isn't an alternative. One group operated for several years until the investigators found that they had forged the emission analysis and sent two VPs to jail for doing so and now the $150mm plants are shut down.
     When I was there watching a 35mm Euro acid hydrolysis plant being built, I saw them take pipes and weld them together to handle medium pressure steam and did absolutely no testing on the welds, no dye, X-ray, Ultrasonic or other which would never fly here. I have to admit the guy welding was one of the best I had ever seen, but really? One of the engineers on the plant said that he wasn't going to be there when it started up because he didn't want to see it blow up.
     Some of the EU folks actively seek US products. I have had lots of interest from over there, they have even been willing to take care of the EU registration. Which by the way, one Asian gasifier is registered but does not have any reference to it's electrostatic precipitator in it's registration documents. Not sure how this is done either.
Sincerely,
Leland T. "Tom" Taylor
President
Thermogenics Inc.
In a message dated 7/28/12 3:58:55 PM, tmiles at trmiles.com<mailto:tmiles at trmiles.com> writes:

Doug,

Anyone who has the enthusiasm and the where-with-all to reach the manufacturing stage of developing gasifiers should be given the benefit of the doubt. It is a long road. The proof of any claims is the sustained and reliable operation of a commercial system. Gasifiers installed in the US must meet standards of industrial construction, safety and environmental impact similar to those in Europe, regardless of where they are manufactured. We look forward to seeing third party verified results of their operation. Then we can line up to buy them.

AGT and Biogen are private companies. They have been visible at conferences and they have more than one gasifier in operation at least at the 250 kWe scale. They recently installed two 500 kWe gasifiers in Italy near their main offices. It is likely that they will operate those units for significant periods before they start exporting systems. Like others they have had ups and downs during pilot, small scale and commercial operations. They have been selling projects. We hope that those projects are successful.

http://www.agtgasification.com/eng/agt_srl.htm
http://www.biogendr.com/app/en/frontpage.aspx

Tom Miles

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