[Gasification] [Spam] Re: Potential Gasification Winner?
Alex English
english at kingston.net
Mon Jul 30 21:24:10 CDT 2012
Thank Nils,
It sounds like an opposite result to that of Ontario, Canada where the
Feed-in Tariff has put all the marginal CO2 policy emphasis on
stimulation in the electricity sector.
Perhaps Denmark isn't cold enough to care:)
Alex
On 30/07/2012 2:35 AM, EP Engineering wrote:
>
> Alex,
>
> The rational is simple and very Danish. A wide natural gas network was
> constructed in the 80'ties. In order for the system to be paid back it
> was mandatory to take natural gas in all areas with the gas network.
> Local communities should enforce this -- but they didn't. Deficit
> rose. Consequently a high tax was put on oil, which was reflected on
> gas becoming attractive. We talked of a "shadow tax" on natural gas.
> Today the gas network has still deficit -- but is recovering. The
> "nice" tax comes in handy and has been partly directed into
> environmental taxes.
>
> Utilities do not pay the tax. Hence electricity prices from power
> producers (large and small) are rather low and related to the free
> Nordpool market -- until delivered to the consumer. A rather big tax
> is laid on the electricity consumption and this is supplemented by
> grid transport costs and "Public Service Obligations" (PSO) = TAX.
>
> Only heavy process industry has a straight scheme. They pay a little
> tax on the fuel going to the processes regardless of the process being
> electricity or process heat. The "funny" thing is, what happens to
> their surplus energy after the processes. The low temperature heat
> could be wisely used in district heating schemes but this is
> prohibited by the large energy tax going on the surplus heat. Hence
> the energy is wasted!
>
> You now have a "clear" view of the distorting mechanisms. A very
> simple way of dealing with it, would be to rely only on tax on the
> fuel -- both for heating and electric purposes -- a tax that should
> only reflect environmental matters. This tax needs to be the same all
> over Europe -- otherwise the system will not work. Sounds easy?
>
> Med venlig hilsen/Best regards
>
> Nils Peter Astrupgaard
>
> *From:*gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *On Behalf Of
> *Alex English
> *Sent:* 30. juli 2012 00:25
> *To:* Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> *Subject:* [Spam] Re: [Gasification] Potential Gasification Winner?
>
> Thomas,
> Thanks for the explanation. Is it felt that the taxes on energy
> there are unevenly or unreasonably applied? What would be the
> rational for NG prices to be so proportionally high?
> Is this not significantly different than all the rest of the EU?
>
> Historical price patterns have changed here too with NG costing a
> small fraction of heating oil (and of your NG). Two societies here;
> the piped and the un-piped.
>
> Regards,
> Alex
>
> On 29/07/2012 1:45 PM, Thomas Koch wrote:
>
> Alex
>
> You are right -- my explanatiion is not very clear.
>
> In Denmark the electricity price that a producer can sell at
> varies between 4 and 10 EURc/kWh -- most of the time -- 5-7
> EURc/kWh. On top of that is a green premium to guaranteed price.
> For gasifiers it is 10 EURc/kWh -- 74,5 øre/kWh - as far as I
> remember. The comsumer pays aprox 30 EURc/kWh.
>
> If you use natural gas you pay approx. 1,2 EUR/m3 ~ 11-12 EURc/kWh
> + plus cost of gas furnace.
>
> In this market where a gasifier can sell electricity for 100
> EUR/MWh and heat at 70-80-90 EUR/MWh (due to the losses in the
> transmission grid there are no money to pay the extra investment
> from a biomass boiler to a biomass gasifier. If you also take in
> account that the char losses on tha gasifier can be 4-10 times
> higher than for a boiler you end up at a loss.
>
> This calculations can be different for different locations -- eg.
> in Italy there has been extremely high green premiums (250-300
> EUR/MWh) for a period. But it does not really help if the
> technology developers does not trust the Italian politicians.
>
> Did that help you?
>
> Best regards
>
> Thomas
>
> *Fra:*gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> <mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] *På vegne
> af *Alex English
> *Sendt:* 29. juli 2012 19:21
> *Til:* gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
> <mailto:gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Emne:* Re: [Gasification] Potential Gasification Winner?
>
> Thomas,
> I don't understand your comment.
> Could you describe how the price of heat and electricity have
> changed to make "heat more expensive than electricity".
> Thanks,
> Alex English
>
> On 29/07/2012 8:23 AM, Thomas Koch wrote:
>
> But - now heat is more expensive than electricity -- and the
> cost level we have reached is 2-10 times the market price.
>
> And of course none of the plants are no where near a
> commercial product (apart from one that is close to -- but 2-4
> times too expensive) because the investors are looking for
> projects that have a chance of being competitive with in 2-10
> years.
>
>
>
>
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