[Gasification] Gasification Digest, Vol 26, Issue 9
Mark E. Ludlow
mark at ludlow.com
Mon Oct 15 02:08:13 CDT 2012
Dear Vikrant,
I think that the first step is simply to increase the compression ratio;
12.5:1 seems way too conservative! Won't the Cummins lower end survive 19:1?
I assume you are talking about volumetric CR; what is the effective ratio
(density ratio) when the turbos are factored-in? (Above normal aspiration.?)
Best,
Mark
From: Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On
Behalf Of vikrant bhalerao
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2012 8:54 PM
To: gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Gasification Digest, Vol 26, Issue 9
Hi Tom and Doug,
Thanks for the knowledge sharing.
Doug, I agree with you. We have engines on PG but more over we want to go
for higher capacity engines. Currently engines running on PG have the CR 11
for NA engines and For TC its 8.5 .. But fpr same case in NG we can go
higher.
I am trying to think from combustion perspective to increase further to
sqeeze out more power and thermal eff. . So far i tried till 12.5 (though
literature mentioned about 17) and whatever thermodynamic state of mixture
(PG + Air) shows positive signs and CFD also support it..
With Regards,
Vikrant Bhalerao
Cummins India Ltd.
Mobile +91 89 833 20 725
On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 12:30 AM,
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Today's Topics:
1. Regarding Combustion Quality of Producer gas (doug.williams)
2. Lister on Gasoline, ingition control device? (Pete & Sheri)
3. Re: Lister on Gasoline, ingition control device? (Mark E. Ludlow)
4. Re: Lister on Gasoline, ingition control device? (Ken Boak)
5. Re: Lister on Gasoline, ingition control device? (Alex English)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 16:36:08 +1300
From: "doug.williams" <Doug.Williams at orcon.net.nz>
To: "Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification"
<gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: [Gasification] Regarding Combustion Quality of Producer gas
Message-ID: <55EF3921E6744E539CE1B9C2BDCC1291 at dougspc>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Tom R. and Gasification Colleagues,
When Vicrant posted his original question to this forum regarding Methane
Numbers, I did wonder why he would have a need to ask, especially as Cummins
already use their engines for producer gas, along with Methane numbers (but
probably for natural gas).
There once was a time, when you had to ask questions of those who engaged is
certain fields for their technical assistance, but today thanks to
Wikipedia, terminology such as cetane, octane, and methane, plus all the
associated related details, are there for dopes like me to access quickly.
It certainly beats opening the office door and hunt through the dust covered
files!
http://www.cumminspower.com/www/Commercial/Set_ng50/C1750_N5C_ng50.html
These modern engines are like Tom suggests:
>Modern engines use knock sensors/timing to increase combustion efficiency
by operating just below the knock limit. I presume that this would greatly
increase power >and efficiency of PG, but I don't know if they could
increase CR enough to accommodate PG.
You can dig out all the facts for yourself, but the success of extracting
the maximum energy of the producer gas is not only the engineering nuts and
bolts, cams, turbo, intercoolers, compression ratios, rpm, etc, but to the
software developed to manage producer gas. These are the new engines we have
been waiting for, at least for clean producer gas, but even using that term
can open up a can of worms for the engine warranties.
What we don't see spelt out about producer gas, is that it's variations away
from what we might call "normal analysis" is infinite, and how that affects
the combustion chemistry, engine operation and/or it's componentry life.
That we might choose to fiddle with older basic slow speed engines to make
them perform better for basic electrical and mechanical power, these modern
high speed engines place real challenge on the gas making consistency.
Gasification remains for me one of the most challenging technologies that
have crossed my path, and if I think for one minute I have it by the tail,
the other end will bite me given the right conditions.
Onwards as Tom R. suggests.
Doug Williams,
Fluidyne...
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:50:07 -0500
From: "Pete & Sheri" <spaco at baldwin-telecom.net>
To: "'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'"
<gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: [Gasification] Lister on Gasoline, ingition control device?
Message-ID: <000601cda9bf$00eb4a00$02c1de00$@net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hello, Ken.
Did you ever publish the circuit for your ignition control device? I seem
to remember seeing a video that showed it in action. Looked like maybe
there was an Arduino in there somewhere.
Pete Stanaitis
----------------
From: Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On
Behalf Of Ken Boak
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 12:28 PM
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Regarding Combustion Quality of Producer gas
Alex,
We* found that the Lister had to be significantly advanced when running on
woodgas in spark ignition mode.
It was anticipated that we might have to be 20 degrees BTDC, but when the
engine was finally running well, it was found to be around 57 degrees BTDC.
The Lister has a 24" diameter flywheel, thus a 75.4" circumference. Our
optimum ignition point was found to be 12" on the rim ahead of the TDC
position.
The Lister rpm was limited to 600rpm because of an undesirable resonance
around 610rpm - a quirk of the specific engine we were using at APL.
Normally the 6hp Lister should rev to 650rpm without vibration.
Marcus Hardwick and I wrote up most of the technical detail here
http://wiki.gekgasifier.com/w/page/30448258/Spark%20conversion%20for%20Liste
<http://wiki.gekgasifier.com/w/page/30448258/Spark%20conversion%20for%20List
er%20slow%20speed%20diesel%20engines>
r%20slow%20speed%20diesel%20engines
We* - the Lister team at the April APL workshop consisted of Ron Ohler, Andy
Schofield, Marcus Hardwick, myself and contributions from other workshop
delegates.
regards
Ken
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 22:26:49 -0700
From: "Mark E. Ludlow" <mark at ludlow.com>
To: "'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'"
<gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Lister on Gasoline, ingition control
device?
Message-ID: <04c801cda9cc$83506900$89f13b00$@ludlow.com <http://ludlow.com/>
>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 57deg BTDC, what is the manifold pressure? This seems reasonable but how
would some mild supercharge affect this timing?
Great topic!
Mark
From: Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On
Behalf Of Pete & Sheri
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 8:50 PM
To: 'Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification'
Subject: [Gasification] Lister on Gasoline, ingition control device?
Hello, Ken.
Did you ever publish the circuit for your ignition control device? I seem
to remember seeing a video that showed it in action. Looked like maybe
there was an Arduino in there somewhere.
Pete Stanaitis
----------------
From: Gasification [mailto:gasification-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On
Behalf Of Ken Boak
Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 12:28 PM
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Regarding Combustion Quality of Producer gas
Alex,
We* found that the Lister had to be significantly advanced when running on
woodgas in spark ignition mode.
It was anticipated that we might have to be 20 degrees BTDC, but when the
engine was finally running well, it was found to be around 57 degrees BTDC.
The Lister has a 24" diameter flywheel, thus a 75.4" circumference. Our
optimum ignition point was found to be 12" on the rim ahead of the TDC
position.
The Lister rpm was limited to 600rpm because of an undesirable resonance
around 610rpm - a quirk of the specific engine we were using at APL.
Normally the 6hp Lister should rev to 650rpm without vibration.
Marcus Hardwick and I wrote up most of the technical detail here
http://wiki.gekgasifier.com/w/page/30448258/Spark%20conversion%20for%20Liste
<http://wiki.gekgasifier.com/w/page/30448258/Spark%20conversion%20for%20List
er%20slow%20speed%20diesel%20engines>
r%20slow%20speed%20diesel%20engines
We* - the Lister team at the April APL workshop consisted of Ron Ohler, Andy
Schofield, Marcus Hardwick, myself and contributions from other workshop
delegates.
regards
Ken
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Message: 4
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 09:26:34 +0100
From: Ken Boak <ken.boak at gmail.com>
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
<gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Lister on Gasoline, ingition control
device?
Message-ID:
<CAOqQ0iZeCALhPWRJCKT+Cak7q_mE2n95qjH0_YW+=_SGxodo5A at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi Peter, List
Just for explanation, the Lister conversion project took place over three
consecutive Workshops at All Power Labs, Berkeley, California. Between Feb
2010 and April 2012, the team slowly picked away at the project.
The original spark ignition circuit was based on an Arduino, with a Hall
effect sensor being triggered by a tiny neodynium magnet taped to the
flywheel rim. A darlington transistor drove the low tension side of a car
ignition coil.
https://files.pbworks.com/download/Mk7b7ymPda/gekgasifier/30638003/Lister_sp
ark.pdf
I used a variable resistor on one of the analogue input pins as a "timing
control". The idea was to fit the magnet very well in advance of the
optimum position, and then adjust the timingcontrol to add a given delay,
to allow the firing point to be adjusted to the position that gave the best
running.
This is what we used in the February 2010 workshop, when the engine first
ran on woodgas. However a later discovered bug in my code meant that the
timing control was not really working as intended.
For the Fall workshop of 2010, I remade the ignition circuit on stripboard
and shipped it out to California, and Ron Ohler, Mike La Rosa, Marcus
Hardwick worked on the project. I could not attend that workshop.
The team fitted the newly positioned spark plug in the side port and proved
that the engine would run.
Marcus and I revisited the Lister project in March 2012 in the run up to
the April workshop. The Lister was converted back to stock 17:1 compression
ratio and given a new head gasket and more permanent arrangement with
gasifier, cooling and exhaust systems.
The electronic ignition (my department) was our Achilles heel this year,
and after a couple of microcontroller and transistor burn-outs, we
eventually replaced it with a commercial MSD spark ignition unit and coil.
Ron Ohler and Andy Schofield went on to get the engine running sweetly,
after a lot of fiddling looking for the best ignition point.
I have now returned to the UK, and I am keen to maintain interest going in
the spark conversion of diesel engines. The developing countries are
littered with small hp diesels such as Lister, Petter, Changfa clones
performing pumping, generation and agricultural processing tasks. To come
up with a cost effective spark conversion for these generic engines so that
they can be economically run on producer gas from biomass, would be a major
step towards petroleum independence.
The original IISc paper describing the performance testing of a 3 cylinder
spark converted Indian diesel engine at 17:1 CR is here:
http://cgpl.iisc.ernet.in/site/Portals/0/Publications/ReferedJournal/Biomass
%20derived%20producer%20gas%20as%20a%20reciprocating.pdf
regards
Ken Boak
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Message: 5
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2012 14:50:14 -0400
From: Alex English <english at kingston.net>
To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
<gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
Subject: Re: [Gasification] Lister on Gasoline, ingition control
device?
Message-ID: <507B0966.40102 at kingston.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
Ken,
The paper from India states that there is some de-rating for producer
gas compared to diesel with their engine. They didn't see the same sweet
spot for spark advance theorizing a need for retarding spark because of
high hydrogen flame speed. Different engine, different PG? In their
case NOxide emissions increase 2 to 10 fold with increased spark
advance. Is this a concern with Mr.Lister? After CR, what accounts for
all the extra power with your test rig?
Thanks,
Alex
On 14/10/2012 4:26 AM, Ken Boak wrote:
> Hi Peter, List
>
> Just for explanation, the Lister conversion project took place over
> three consecutive Workshops at All Power Labs, Berkeley, California.
> Between Feb 2010 and April 2012, the team slowly picked away at the
> project.
>
> The original spark ignition circuit was based on an Arduino, with a
> Hall effect sensor being triggered by a tiny neodynium magnet taped to
> the flywheel rim. A darlington transistor drove the low tension side
> of a car ignition coil.
>
>
https://files.pbworks.com/download/Mk7b7ymPda/gekgasifier/30638003/Lister_sp
ark.pdf
>
> I used a variable resistor on one of the analogue input pins as a
> "timing control". The idea was to fit the magnet very well in advance
> of the optimum position, and then adjust the timingcontrol to add a
> given delay, to allow the firing point to be adjusted to the position
> that gave the best running.
>
> This is what we used in the February 2010 workshop, when the engine
> first ran on woodgas. However a later discovered bug in my code meant
> that the timing control was not really working as intended.
>
> For the Fall workshop of 2010, I remade the ignition circuit on
> stripboard and shipped it out to California, and Ron Ohler, Mike La
> Rosa, Marcus Hardwick worked on the project. I could not attend that
> workshop.
>
> The team fitted the newly positioned spark plug in the side port and
> proved that the engine would run.
>
> Marcus and I revisited the Lister project in March 2012 in the run up
> to the April workshop. The Lister was converted back to stock 17:1
> compression ratio and given a new head gasket and more permanent
> arrangement with gasifier, cooling and exhaust systems.
>
> The electronic ignition (my department) was our Achilles heel this
> year, and after a couple of microcontroller and transistor burn-outs,
> we eventually replaced it with a commercial MSD spark ignition unit
> and coil. Ron Ohler and Andy Schofield went on to get the engine
> running sweetly, after a lot of fiddling looking for the best ignition
> point.
>
> I have now returned to the UK, and I am keen to maintain interest
> going in the spark conversion of diesel engines. The developing
> countries are littered with small hp diesels such as Lister, Petter,
> Changfa clones performing pumping, generation and agricultural
> processing tasks. To come up with a cost effective spark conversion
> for these generic engines so that they can be economically run on
> producer gas from biomass, would be a major step towards petroleum
> independence.
>
> The original IISc paper describing the performance testing of a 3
> cylinder spark converted Indian diesel engine at 17:1 CR is here:
>
>
http://cgpl.iisc.ernet.in/site/Portals/0/Publications/ReferedJournal/Biomass
%20derived%20producer%20gas%20as%20a%20reciprocating.pdf
>
>
>
> regards
>
>
>
> Ken Boak
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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End of Gasification Digest, Vol 26, Issue 9
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