[Gasification] Gasification Digest, Vol 40, Issue 8

Geoff Thomas wind at iig.com.au
Sun Dec 8 16:55:10 CST 2013


Subject: Biochar versus Organic Material/ compost


Hi David, your general comments much appreciated, but one point I would like to argue, - sequestering carbon by putting organic material in the ground is fine in the cooler latitudes, it will stay there quite a long time, but in the tropics, no way, - it is gone in months, weeks in some cases.
Wood chips take longer, but even they are gone in less than a year, and a garden bed in which you put heaps of compost, whilst anything will grow like mad, needs re-composting only months later, - whether you grow anything or not.
In the Tropics, everything happens much faster, so Biochar seems the better option.

Cheers,
Geoff Thomas
 
On 09/12/2013, at 5:00 AM, gasification-request at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. Re: [Gasification]	Small	steam	systems	plus	gasifiers	for
>      electricity (Jeff Davis)
>   2. Re: Biochar et al. (Joe Barnas)
>   3. Re: Biochar et al. (David Murphy)
>   4. Re: Biochar et al. (David Murphy)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 15:15:07 -0500
> From: Jeff Davis <jeffdavis0124 at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> 	<gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification]	Small	steam	systems	plus	gasifiers	for
> 	electricity
> Message-ID: <52A381CB.1070207 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
> 
> Tom,
> 
> 
> I never had any luck carbonizing grass/weeds with the grass-a-fire. One 
> would rat hole and the other needed denser charcoal bed. But Roger 
> Sampson rice husk method showed hope.
> 
> Working full time makes it unreliable to harvest dry grass/weeds late in 
> the season at least for this bag of old achy bones. In other words it's 
> not an easy fuel for a peasant. The baler went to the sale a bit ago and 
> the mower and rake goes this spring. But I now have an old and almost 
> functioning flail harvester that should work for compost production.
> 
> I hope to start phasing out grasses with Staghorn Sumac a much more 
> usable fuel.
> 
> 
> Jeff
> 
> 
> 
> On 12/02/2013 11:39 PM, Tom Miles wrote:
>> 
>> Jeff,
>> 
>> We find that biochar from a downdraft gasifier composted 15% v/v with 
>> alfalfa and wood chips makes a very nice compost. We have used it as a 
>> substitute for a vermiculite-peat-bark blend. Tree seedling response 
>> is generally good. Some species are pH sensitive and the alfalfa 
>> pushes the compost pH up so adjustments need to be made. In Japan Dr. 
>> Ogawa rinses high pH grass (bamboo) chars to reduce soluble alkali 
>> before application to the tree root zone.
>> 
>> Biochar-peat and biochar--coco peat blends work well.
>> 
>> So if you have a gasifier in a location where there is no market for 
>> power you can make heat for greenhouses and a char byproduct that you 
>> can compost for use in the greenhouse. We estimate that the combined 
>> savings from the heat (propane) and soil amendments for a 10 MMBtuh (3 
>> MW) system are about $350,000 per year.
>> 
>> David Yarrow likes chars from grasses. You can make char in your 
>> grass-a-fire.
>> 
>> Tom
>> 
> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 17:33:51 -0800
> From: Joe Barnas <joe.barnas333 at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> 	<gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biochar et al.
> Message-ID:
> 	<CANweOnyYUHiVhye-g3G2XaXc5EGaVp6oQ_KyJXpCmfVJoMrhsw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
> 
> DAVID,
> 
> Thankyou for the insightful overview of biochar and comparative
> functionality of Zeolite, of which I was not familiar.
> 
> However one thing I am focused on is how to address catastrophic global
> climate change and for that having billions of gardeners sequestering
> carbon, while building healthy soil and hence healthy food is not something
> that Zeolite can provide.  It is another tool in growing food, yes, but
> let's not lose sight of the long term benefit of promoting biochar.  I
> might even try mixing some with biochar just to gain the N adsorption
> benefits.
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:00 PM, David Murphy <djfmurphy at dodo.com.au> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Greetings Biochar/Gasifier people !
>> 
>> Everybody & his dog seems to have something to say about
>> charcoal/biochar/biochar-compost mix and so on.    Well, here?s another
>> dog to bark his piece !
>> 
>> Biochar is often seen as the great agricultural panacea, but *it is not*.
>> Biochar is a name given to plain ordinary charcoal to indicate that it is
>> destined for use in soil improvement, but basically it is still plain
>> ordinary charcoal, just crushed into smaller particles.  In some
>> circumstances it is a very beneficial tool but it is not magical as some
>> proponents seem to think.   Just remember, all charcoal has a bio-origin -
>> wood.
>> 
>> In some Ag. trials in Australia it significantly improved crop volume
>> (treble in one case) but in other instances, nothing worth writing home
>> about.  It depends on what the soil is like to start with.
>> 
>> Charcoal is stable.  That means it does not take part in any composting
>> system (which is one primarily of bacterial digestion) and it is
>> indigestible so that when offered as a dietary supplement (in poultry food
>> for example) it passes through the digestive system physically unchanged
>> but will adsorb a high proportion of the gases and some toxins produced in
>> the process of digestion, because that is what charcoal does.    For this
>> reason, it's adsorption capability, poultry will generally do better on a
>> little charcoal.
>> 
>> Quite a few pages could be filled on the beneficial services provided by
>> charcoal as it travels through the digestive system, but it does it as
>> charcoal only and as nothing else.   By all means use a little in the feed,
>> you can only benefit.
>> 
>> The only physical way to change the nature of charcoal is to burn it.
>> That is why it lasts in soil (or wherever it is) for thousands of years.
>> 
>> It has an incredibly high surface area of 360 m2 (varies) and is a mass
>> of minute tunnels which in turn means a very high volume and gases become
>> trapped in these tunnels.  It does not *ab*sorb, it *ad*sorbs and traps
>> only.  The difference between absorb and adsorb is the same as the
>> difference in liquids of suspension and solution.  Clay particles will be
>> in suspension, sugar and salt go into solution.
>> 
>> Charcoal is useful in an aerobic composting system because again of the
>> entrapment of air in the tunnels.   A composting system goes well if
>> there is enough oxygen bearing air available to the bacteria which are a
>> significant part of the system.   The more air, the higher the population
>> of bacteria (other factors being OK).    The charcoal itself is
>> inoperative, and doesn?t change, nor is it a catalyst, it simply provides a
>> service.   It will only provide a haven for soil benevolent bacteria if
>> there is something trapped in the tunnels which the bacteria can eat.
>> 
>> Charcoal is a good adsorber of gas and liquid simply because that is what
>> it does.   Zeolite on the other hand, can have an even higher surface are
>> per gram and has a propensity to entrap gases, most particularly nitrogen
>> in it?s various forms ? as gas ? ammonium for example ? and in liquids as a
>> salt of NO3 .   It actually draws them in (like a magnet attracts ferric
>> objects) where charcoal just takes it as it comes.    It is easy to see
>> also why charcoal is so effective as a filter, but if you have a solution
>> rich in nitrogen, run it through Zeolite and the N will be removed.  Add
>> some to the litter in poultry grower sheds, there will be fewer
>> mortalities because the ammonia which sometimes will asphixiate small birds
>> will be absorbed.    Zeolite will take N out of solution, charcoal will
>> not.    There's 40 natural forms of Zeolite and more than another 150 can
>> be synthesised, so choose carefully for the one most appropriate to your
>> problem.    Zeolite can perform an amazing range of actions.    Once used
>> and applied as fertiliser, Zeolite subsequently will release the N slowly
>> and remain in the soil as a balancer of N.  Too much, it will take it in
>> (so that the soil pH is not lowered) and release it as required.
>> 
>> Charcoal?s great stuff though, it's easy to make and holds answers to a
>> lot of problems - but not all !
>> David Murphy.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gasification mailing list
>> 
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>> 
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> 
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>> 
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>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Joe Barnas
> Portland, OR
> 541-525-1665
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 15:15:13 +1100
> From: David Murphy <djfmurphy at dodo.com.au>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> 	<gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biochar et al.
> Message-ID: <52A3F251.2080701 at dodo.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
> 
> Joe, you might find it of interest to look up John 
> D. Hamaker on the net.  He was an American 
> Mechanical Engineer who turned his mind (and 
> subsequently devoted his life) to improving soil 
> by the addition of rock dust.    He saw global 
> warming as a precursor to the next ice age.  He 
> saw an ice age as essential refurbishment of the 
> earth's resources.     His argument has a lot of 
> good solid logioc to it and it's worth adding to 
> your store of knowledge on the general topic.     
> If he's proven right, then we're in a lot of 
> trouble !    If you want to study it further I 
> have a DVD I made from a tape he produced I could 
> let you have.
> 
> Rock dust is a storehouse of minerals, all of 
> which are essential to growth.    First to plants 
> and then to the animals which eat them - including 
> us humans.   Rock dust is insoluble to water but 
> not to enzymes which are produced by soil 
> benevolent bacteria - bacteria which are present 
> in soil with good OM and in compost.     Many 
> readers of this string will be aware of it's 
> benefits when used as fertiliser.
> 
> Seeking to remedy climate change purported to be 
> caused by anthropomorphic global warming is an 
> extraordinarily complex question.   And seeking to 
> make a contribution by sequestering carbon as 
> charcoal is in itself another complex range of 
> issues.     The charcoal must be first ligneos 
> carbon - wood - and it is probably almost as good 
> to lock up some of that carbon in timber for 
> building houses or making furniture.
> 
> I'd promote the first step by making the 
> sequestration of the carbon as part of a broader 
> program of building building soil organic matter 
> OM.   This includes animate carbon as well as 
> vegetative.     At least get it up to 5% to plough 
> depth, say 10 inches (250mm) as a minimum, aiming 
> at 20%.   That in itself locks away a lot of 
> carbon, but of a different nature, in that it's 
> available to contribute to plant growth, growth 
> without the need for chemical or artificial 
> fertilisers.
> 
> Every 1% increase in soil OM (world wide) would be 
> a lockup of around 30 billion tonnes of carbon in  
> a world which generates now (probably) 20 million 
> tonnes annually.    Just for the record, the 
> biggest emitter of CO2, bigger than every other 
> agency combined - every factory, airplane, car 
> truck tractor etc and so on - is the soil of the 
> earth as it respires.    So, the more land we put 
> down under crop to feed the increasing billions, 
> the more CO2 we produce and put into the atmosphere.
> 
> So, it's a race against a proven runner - so 
> called mother Nature - and she's a proven stayer.
> 
> On the other hand, some of the wise owls are now 
> saying it's not CO2 at all, but PCB's causing the 
> damage.   Maybe they're right - who knows _for 
> sure ?_    Nobody I'm aware of despite what they 
> say.    It's all conjecture, some of it soundly 
> based, but still conjecture relying on historical 
> info compiled over a geological blink.
> 
> Using charcoal and zeolite together is a bit like 
> wearing belt & braces with self-supporting 
> trousers.     It certainly works !
> 
> The easy and less costly way is to just get the OM 
> into the soil and plant stuff to grow and suck up 
> all the CO2 and N.
> 
> But whatever you do, don't stop the good work.
> 
> David Murphy.
> 
> On 08/12/2013 12:33 PM, Joe Barnas wrote:
>> DAVID,
>> 
>> Thankyou for the insightful overview of biochar 
>> and comparative functionality of Zeolite, of 
>> which I was not familiar.
>> 
>> However one thing I am focused on is how to 
>> address catastrophic global climate change and 
>> for that having billions of gardeners 
>> sequestering carbon, while building healthy soil 
>> and hence healthy food is not something that 
>> Zeolite can provide.  It is another tool in 
>> growing food, yes, but let's not lose sight of 
>> the long term benefit of promoting biochar.  I 
>> might even try mixing some with biochar just to 
>> gain the N adsorption benefits.
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:00 PM, David Murphy 
>> <djfmurphy at dodo.com.au 
>> <mailto:djfmurphy at dodo.com.au>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>    Greetings Biochar/Gasifier people !
>> 
>>    Everybody & his dog seems to have something
>>    to say about
>>    charcoal/biochar/biochar-compost mix and so
>>    on.Well, here's another dog to bark his piece !
>> 
>>    Biochar is often seen as the great
>>    agricultural panacea, but _it is
>>    not_.Biochar is a name given to plain
>>    ordinary charcoal to indicate that it is
>>    destined for use in soil improvement, but
>>    basically it is still plain ordinary
>>    charcoal, just crushed into smaller
>>    particles. In some circumstances it is a
>>    very beneficial tool but it is not magical
>>    as some proponents seem to think. Just
>>    remember, all charcoal has a bio-origin - wood.
>> 
>>    In some Ag. trials in Australiait
>>    significantly improved crop volume (treble
>>    in one case) but in other instances, nothing
>>    worth writing home about.It depends on what
>>    the soil is like to start with.
>> 
>>    Charcoal is stable.That means it does not
>>    take part in any composting system (which is
>>    one primarily of bacterial digestion) and it
>>    is indigestible so that when offered as a
>>    dietary supplement (in poultry food for
>>    example) it passes through the digestive
>>    system physically unchanged but will adsorb
>>    a high proportion of the gases and some
>>    toxins produced in the process of digestion,
>>    because that is what charcoal does. For this
>>    reason, it's adsorption capability, poultry
>>    will generally do better on a little charcoal.
>> 
>>    Quite a few pages could be filled on the
>>    beneficial services provided by charcoal as
>>    it travels through the digestive system, but
>>    it does it as charcoal only and as nothing
>>    else.   By all means use a little in the
>>    feed, you can only benefit.
>> 
>>    The only physical way to change the nature
>>    of charcoal is to burn it.    That is why it
>>    lasts in soil (or wherever it is) for
>>    thousands of years.
>> 
>>    It has an incredibly high surface area of
>>    360 m^2 (varies) and is a mass of minute
>>    tunnels which in turn means a very high
>>    volume and gases become trapped in these
>>    tunnels.It does not _ab_sorb, it _ad_sorbs
>>    and traps only.The difference between absorb
>>    and adsorb is the same as the difference in
>>    liquids of suspension and solution.Clay
>>    particles will be in suspension, sugar and
>>    salt go into solution.
>> 
>>    Charcoal is useful in an aerobic composting
>>    system because again of the entrapment of
>>    air in the tunnels.A composting system goes
>>    well if there is enough oxygen bearing air
>>    available to the bacteria which are a
>>    significant part of the system.The more air,
>>    the higher the population of bacteria (other
>>    factors being OK). The charcoal itself is
>>    inoperative, and doesn't change, nor is it a
>>    catalyst, it simply provides a service. It
>>    will only provide a haven for soil
>>    benevolent bacteria if there is something
>>    trapped in the tunnels which the bacteria
>>    can eat.
>> 
>>    Charcoal is a good adsorber of gas and
>>    liquid simply because that is what it
>>    does.Zeolite on the other hand, can have an
>>    even higher surface are per gram and has a
>>    propensity to entrap gases, most
>>    particularly nitrogen in it's various forms
>>    -- as gas -- ammonium for example -- and in
>>    liquids as a salt of NO_3 .It actually draws
>>    them in (like a magnet attracts ferric
>>    objects) where charcoal just takes it as it
>>    comes.    It is easy to see also why
>>    charcoal is so effective as a filter, but if
>>    you have a solution rich in nitrogen, run it
>>    through Zeolite and the N will be removed.
>>    Add some to the litter in poultry grower
>>    sheds, there will be fewer mortalities
>>    because the ammonia which sometimes will
>>    asphixiate small birds will be absorbed.
>>    Zeolite will take N out of solution,
>>    charcoal will not.    There's 40 natural
>>    forms of Zeolite and more than another 150
>>    can be synthesised, so choose carefully for
>>    the one most appropriate to your problem.   
>>    Zeolite can perform an amazing range of
>>    actions.    Once used and applied as
>>    fertiliser, Zeolite subsequently will
>>    release the N slowly and remain in the soil
>>    as a balancer of N.  Too much, it will take
>>    it in (so that the soil pH is not lowered)
>>    and release it as required.
>> 
>>    Charcoal's great stuff though, it's easy to
>>    make and holds answers to a lot of problems
>>    - but not all !
>> 
>>    David Murphy.
>> 
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    Gasification mailing list
>> 
>>    to Send a Message to the list, use the email
>>    address
>>    Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>>    <mailto:Gasification at bioenergylists.org>
>> 
>>    to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings
>>    use the web page
>>    http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> 
>>    for more Gasifiers,  News and Information
>>    see our web site:
>>    http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Joe Barnas
>> Portland, OR
>> 541-525-1665
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gasification mailing list
>> 
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>> 
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> 
>> for more Gasifiers,  News and Information see our web site:
>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 18:45:24 +1100
> From: David Murphy <djfmurphy at dodo.com.au>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> 	<gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biochar et al.
> Message-ID: <52A42394.5010509 at dodo.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
> 
> Joe, my apologies - a typo.    Instead of " a 
> world which generates now (probably) 20 million 
> tonnes annually." that should read 20 _billion_ 
> not million !
> 
> On 08/12/2013 12:33 PM, Joe Barnas wrote:
>> DAVID,
>> 
>> Thankyou for the insightful overview of biochar 
>> and comparative functionality of Zeolite, of 
>> which I was not familiar.
>> 
>> However one thing I am focused on is how to 
>> address catastrophic global climate change and 
>> for that having billions of gardeners 
>> sequestering carbon, while building healthy soil 
>> and hence healthy food is not something that 
>> Zeolite can provide.  It is another tool in 
>> growing food, yes, but let's not lose sight of 
>> the long term benefit of promoting biochar.  I 
>> might even try mixing some with biochar just to 
>> gain the N adsorption benefits.
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:00 PM, David Murphy 
>> <djfmurphy at dodo.com.au 
>> <mailto:djfmurphy at dodo.com.au>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>    Greetings Biochar/Gasifier people !
>> 
>>    Everybody & his dog seems to have something
>>    to say about
>>    charcoal/biochar/biochar-compost mix and so
>>    on.Well, here's another dog to bark his piece !
>> 
>>    Biochar is often seen as the great
>>    agricultural panacea, but _it is
>>    not_.Biochar is a name given to plain
>>    ordinary charcoal to indicate that it is
>>    destined for use in soil improvement, but
>>    basically it is still plain ordinary
>>    charcoal, just crushed into smaller
>>    particles. In some circumstances it is a
>>    very beneficial tool but it is not magical
>>    as some proponents seem to think. Just
>>    remember, all charcoal has a bio-origin - wood.
>> 
>>    In some Ag. trials in Australiait
>>    significantly improved crop volume (treble
>>    in one case) but in other instances, nothing
>>    worth writing home about.It depends on what
>>    the soil is like to start with.
>> 
>>    Charcoal is stable.That means it does not
>>    take part in any composting system (which is
>>    one primarily of bacterial digestion) and it
>>    is indigestible so that when offered as a
>>    dietary supplement (in poultry food for
>>    example) it passes through the digestive
>>    system physically unchanged but will adsorb
>>    a high proportion of the gases and some
>>    toxins produced in the process of digestion,
>>    because that is what charcoal does. For this
>>    reason, it's adsorption capability, poultry
>>    will generally do better on a little charcoal.
>> 
>>    Quite a few pages could be filled on the
>>    beneficial services provided by charcoal as
>>    it travels through the digestive system, but
>>    it does it as charcoal only and as nothing
>>    else.   By all means use a little in the
>>    feed, you can only benefit.
>> 
>>    The only physical way to change the nature
>>    of charcoal is to burn it.    That is why it
>>    lasts in soil (or wherever it is) for
>>    thousands of years.
>> 
>>    It has an incredibly high surface area of
>>    360 m^2 (varies) and is a mass of minute
>>    tunnels which in turn means a very high
>>    volume and gases become trapped in these
>>    tunnels.It does not _ab_sorb, it _ad_sorbs
>>    and traps only.The difference between absorb
>>    and adsorb is the same as the difference in
>>    liquids of suspension and solution.Clay
>>    particles will be in suspension, sugar and
>>    salt go into solution.
>> 
>>    Charcoal is useful in an aerobic composting
>>    system because again of the entrapment of
>>    air in the tunnels.A composting system goes
>>    well if there is enough oxygen bearing air
>>    available to the bacteria which are a
>>    significant part of the system.The more air,
>>    the higher the population of bacteria (other
>>    factors being OK). The charcoal itself is
>>    inoperative, and doesn't change, nor is it a
>>    catalyst, it simply provides a service. It
>>    will only provide a haven for soil
>>    benevolent bacteria if there is something
>>    trapped in the tunnels which the bacteria
>>    can eat.
>> 
>>    Charcoal is a good adsorber of gas and
>>    liquid simply because that is what it
>>    does.Zeolite on the other hand, can have an
>>    even higher surface are per gram and has a
>>    propensity to entrap gases, most
>>    particularly nitrogen in it's various forms
>>    -- as gas -- ammonium for example -- and in
>>    liquids as a salt of NO_3 .It actually draws
>>    them in (like a magnet attracts ferric
>>    objects) where charcoal just takes it as it
>>    comes.    It is easy to see also why
>>    charcoal is so effective as a filter, but if
>>    you have a solution rich in nitrogen, run it
>>    through Zeolite and the N will be removed.
>>    Add some to the litter in poultry grower
>>    sheds, there will be fewer mortalities
>>    because the ammonia which sometimes will
>>    asphixiate small birds will be absorbed.
>>    Zeolite will take N out of solution,
>>    charcoal will not.    There's 40 natural
>>    forms of Zeolite and more than another 150
>>    can be synthesised, so choose carefully for
>>    the one most appropriate to your problem.   
>>    Zeolite can perform an amazing range of
>>    actions.    Once used and applied as
>>    fertiliser, Zeolite subsequently will
>>    release the N slowly and remain in the soil
>>    as a balancer of N.  Too much, it will take
>>    it in (so that the soil pH is not lowered)
>>    and release it as required.
>> 
>>    Charcoal's great stuff though, it's easy to
>>    make and holds answers to a lot of problems
>>    - but not all !
>> 
>>    David Murphy.
>> 
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    Gasification mailing list
>> 
>>    to Send a Message to the list, use the email
>>    address
>>    Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>>    <mailto:Gasification at bioenergylists.org>
>> 
>>    to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings
>>    use the web page
>>    http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>> 
>>    for more Gasifiers,  News and Information
>>    see our web site:
>>    http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Joe Barnas
>> Portland, OR
>> 541-525-1665
>> 
>> 
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