[Gasification] Gasification Digest, Vol 40, Issue 8
Geoff Thomas
wind at iig.com.au
Sun Dec 8 16:55:10 CST 2013
Subject: Biochar versus Organic Material/ compost
Hi David, your general comments much appreciated, but one point I would like to argue, - sequestering carbon by putting organic material in the ground is fine in the cooler latitudes, it will stay there quite a long time, but in the tropics, no way, - it is gone in months, weeks in some cases.
Wood chips take longer, but even they are gone in less than a year, and a garden bed in which you put heaps of compost, whilst anything will grow like mad, needs re-composting only months later, - whether you grow anything or not.
In the Tropics, everything happens much faster, so Biochar seems the better option.
Cheers,
Geoff Thomas
On 09/12/2013, at 5:00 AM, gasification-request at lists.bioenergylists.org wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for
> electricity (Jeff Davis)
> 2. Re: Biochar et al. (Joe Barnas)
> 3. Re: Biochar et al. (David Murphy)
> 4. Re: Biochar et al. (David Murphy)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2013 15:15:07 -0500
> From: Jeff Davis <jeffdavis0124 at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Small steam systems plus gasifiers for
> electricity
> Message-ID: <52A381CB.1070207 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Tom,
>
>
> I never had any luck carbonizing grass/weeds with the grass-a-fire. One
> would rat hole and the other needed denser charcoal bed. But Roger
> Sampson rice husk method showed hope.
>
> Working full time makes it unreliable to harvest dry grass/weeds late in
> the season at least for this bag of old achy bones. In other words it's
> not an easy fuel for a peasant. The baler went to the sale a bit ago and
> the mower and rake goes this spring. But I now have an old and almost
> functioning flail harvester that should work for compost production.
>
> I hope to start phasing out grasses with Staghorn Sumac a much more
> usable fuel.
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> On 12/02/2013 11:39 PM, Tom Miles wrote:
>>
>> Jeff,
>>
>> We find that biochar from a downdraft gasifier composted 15% v/v with
>> alfalfa and wood chips makes a very nice compost. We have used it as a
>> substitute for a vermiculite-peat-bark blend. Tree seedling response
>> is generally good. Some species are pH sensitive and the alfalfa
>> pushes the compost pH up so adjustments need to be made. In Japan Dr.
>> Ogawa rinses high pH grass (bamboo) chars to reduce soluble alkali
>> before application to the tree root zone.
>>
>> Biochar-peat and biochar--coco peat blends work well.
>>
>> So if you have a gasifier in a location where there is no market for
>> power you can make heat for greenhouses and a char byproduct that you
>> can compost for use in the greenhouse. We estimate that the combined
>> savings from the heat (propane) and soil amendments for a 10 MMBtuh (3
>> MW) system are about $350,000 per year.
>>
>> David Yarrow likes chars from grasses. You can make char in your
>> grass-a-fire.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2013 17:33:51 -0800
> From: Joe Barnas <joe.barnas333 at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biochar et al.
> Message-ID:
> <CANweOnyYUHiVhye-g3G2XaXc5EGaVp6oQ_KyJXpCmfVJoMrhsw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> DAVID,
>
> Thankyou for the insightful overview of biochar and comparative
> functionality of Zeolite, of which I was not familiar.
>
> However one thing I am focused on is how to address catastrophic global
> climate change and for that having billions of gardeners sequestering
> carbon, while building healthy soil and hence healthy food is not something
> that Zeolite can provide. It is another tool in growing food, yes, but
> let's not lose sight of the long term benefit of promoting biochar. I
> might even try mixing some with biochar just to gain the N adsorption
> benefits.
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:00 PM, David Murphy <djfmurphy at dodo.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>> Greetings Biochar/Gasifier people !
>>
>> Everybody & his dog seems to have something to say about
>> charcoal/biochar/biochar-compost mix and so on. Well, here?s another
>> dog to bark his piece !
>>
>> Biochar is often seen as the great agricultural panacea, but *it is not*.
>> Biochar is a name given to plain ordinary charcoal to indicate that it is
>> destined for use in soil improvement, but basically it is still plain
>> ordinary charcoal, just crushed into smaller particles. In some
>> circumstances it is a very beneficial tool but it is not magical as some
>> proponents seem to think. Just remember, all charcoal has a bio-origin -
>> wood.
>>
>> In some Ag. trials in Australia it significantly improved crop volume
>> (treble in one case) but in other instances, nothing worth writing home
>> about. It depends on what the soil is like to start with.
>>
>> Charcoal is stable. That means it does not take part in any composting
>> system (which is one primarily of bacterial digestion) and it is
>> indigestible so that when offered as a dietary supplement (in poultry food
>> for example) it passes through the digestive system physically unchanged
>> but will adsorb a high proportion of the gases and some toxins produced in
>> the process of digestion, because that is what charcoal does. For this
>> reason, it's adsorption capability, poultry will generally do better on a
>> little charcoal.
>>
>> Quite a few pages could be filled on the beneficial services provided by
>> charcoal as it travels through the digestive system, but it does it as
>> charcoal only and as nothing else. By all means use a little in the feed,
>> you can only benefit.
>>
>> The only physical way to change the nature of charcoal is to burn it.
>> That is why it lasts in soil (or wherever it is) for thousands of years.
>>
>> It has an incredibly high surface area of 360 m2 (varies) and is a mass
>> of minute tunnels which in turn means a very high volume and gases become
>> trapped in these tunnels. It does not *ab*sorb, it *ad*sorbs and traps
>> only. The difference between absorb and adsorb is the same as the
>> difference in liquids of suspension and solution. Clay particles will be
>> in suspension, sugar and salt go into solution.
>>
>> Charcoal is useful in an aerobic composting system because again of the
>> entrapment of air in the tunnels. A composting system goes well if
>> there is enough oxygen bearing air available to the bacteria which are a
>> significant part of the system. The more air, the higher the population
>> of bacteria (other factors being OK). The charcoal itself is
>> inoperative, and doesn?t change, nor is it a catalyst, it simply provides a
>> service. It will only provide a haven for soil benevolent bacteria if
>> there is something trapped in the tunnels which the bacteria can eat.
>>
>> Charcoal is a good adsorber of gas and liquid simply because that is what
>> it does. Zeolite on the other hand, can have an even higher surface are
>> per gram and has a propensity to entrap gases, most particularly nitrogen
>> in it?s various forms ? as gas ? ammonium for example ? and in liquids as a
>> salt of NO3 . It actually draws them in (like a magnet attracts ferric
>> objects) where charcoal just takes it as it comes. It is easy to see
>> also why charcoal is so effective as a filter, but if you have a solution
>> rich in nitrogen, run it through Zeolite and the N will be removed. Add
>> some to the litter in poultry grower sheds, there will be fewer
>> mortalities because the ammonia which sometimes will asphixiate small birds
>> will be absorbed. Zeolite will take N out of solution, charcoal will
>> not. There's 40 natural forms of Zeolite and more than another 150 can
>> be synthesised, so choose carefully for the one most appropriate to your
>> problem. Zeolite can perform an amazing range of actions. Once used
>> and applied as fertiliser, Zeolite subsequently will release the N slowly
>> and remain in the soil as a balancer of N. Too much, it will take it in
>> (so that the soil pH is not lowered) and release it as required.
>>
>> Charcoal?s great stuff though, it's easy to make and holds answers to a
>> lot of problems - but not all !
>> David Murphy.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gasification mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Joe Barnas
> Portland, OR
> 541-525-1665
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 15:15:13 +1100
> From: David Murphy <djfmurphy at dodo.com.au>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biochar et al.
> Message-ID: <52A3F251.2080701 at dodo.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Joe, you might find it of interest to look up John
> D. Hamaker on the net. He was an American
> Mechanical Engineer who turned his mind (and
> subsequently devoted his life) to improving soil
> by the addition of rock dust. He saw global
> warming as a precursor to the next ice age. He
> saw an ice age as essential refurbishment of the
> earth's resources. His argument has a lot of
> good solid logioc to it and it's worth adding to
> your store of knowledge on the general topic.
> If he's proven right, then we're in a lot of
> trouble ! If you want to study it further I
> have a DVD I made from a tape he produced I could
> let you have.
>
> Rock dust is a storehouse of minerals, all of
> which are essential to growth. First to plants
> and then to the animals which eat them - including
> us humans. Rock dust is insoluble to water but
> not to enzymes which are produced by soil
> benevolent bacteria - bacteria which are present
> in soil with good OM and in compost. Many
> readers of this string will be aware of it's
> benefits when used as fertiliser.
>
> Seeking to remedy climate change purported to be
> caused by anthropomorphic global warming is an
> extraordinarily complex question. And seeking to
> make a contribution by sequestering carbon as
> charcoal is in itself another complex range of
> issues. The charcoal must be first ligneos
> carbon - wood - and it is probably almost as good
> to lock up some of that carbon in timber for
> building houses or making furniture.
>
> I'd promote the first step by making the
> sequestration of the carbon as part of a broader
> program of building building soil organic matter
> OM. This includes animate carbon as well as
> vegetative. At least get it up to 5% to plough
> depth, say 10 inches (250mm) as a minimum, aiming
> at 20%. That in itself locks away a lot of
> carbon, but of a different nature, in that it's
> available to contribute to plant growth, growth
> without the need for chemical or artificial
> fertilisers.
>
> Every 1% increase in soil OM (world wide) would be
> a lockup of around 30 billion tonnes of carbon in
> a world which generates now (probably) 20 million
> tonnes annually. Just for the record, the
> biggest emitter of CO2, bigger than every other
> agency combined - every factory, airplane, car
> truck tractor etc and so on - is the soil of the
> earth as it respires. So, the more land we put
> down under crop to feed the increasing billions,
> the more CO2 we produce and put into the atmosphere.
>
> So, it's a race against a proven runner - so
> called mother Nature - and she's a proven stayer.
>
> On the other hand, some of the wise owls are now
> saying it's not CO2 at all, but PCB's causing the
> damage. Maybe they're right - who knows _for
> sure ?_ Nobody I'm aware of despite what they
> say. It's all conjecture, some of it soundly
> based, but still conjecture relying on historical
> info compiled over a geological blink.
>
> Using charcoal and zeolite together is a bit like
> wearing belt & braces with self-supporting
> trousers. It certainly works !
>
> The easy and less costly way is to just get the OM
> into the soil and plant stuff to grow and suck up
> all the CO2 and N.
>
> But whatever you do, don't stop the good work.
>
> David Murphy.
>
> On 08/12/2013 12:33 PM, Joe Barnas wrote:
>> DAVID,
>>
>> Thankyou for the insightful overview of biochar
>> and comparative functionality of Zeolite, of
>> which I was not familiar.
>>
>> However one thing I am focused on is how to
>> address catastrophic global climate change and
>> for that having billions of gardeners
>> sequestering carbon, while building healthy soil
>> and hence healthy food is not something that
>> Zeolite can provide. It is another tool in
>> growing food, yes, but let's not lose sight of
>> the long term benefit of promoting biochar. I
>> might even try mixing some with biochar just to
>> gain the N adsorption benefits.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:00 PM, David Murphy
>> <djfmurphy at dodo.com.au
>> <mailto:djfmurphy at dodo.com.au>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Greetings Biochar/Gasifier people !
>>
>> Everybody & his dog seems to have something
>> to say about
>> charcoal/biochar/biochar-compost mix and so
>> on.Well, here's another dog to bark his piece !
>>
>> Biochar is often seen as the great
>> agricultural panacea, but _it is
>> not_.Biochar is a name given to plain
>> ordinary charcoal to indicate that it is
>> destined for use in soil improvement, but
>> basically it is still plain ordinary
>> charcoal, just crushed into smaller
>> particles. In some circumstances it is a
>> very beneficial tool but it is not magical
>> as some proponents seem to think. Just
>> remember, all charcoal has a bio-origin - wood.
>>
>> In some Ag. trials in Australiait
>> significantly improved crop volume (treble
>> in one case) but in other instances, nothing
>> worth writing home about.It depends on what
>> the soil is like to start with.
>>
>> Charcoal is stable.That means it does not
>> take part in any composting system (which is
>> one primarily of bacterial digestion) and it
>> is indigestible so that when offered as a
>> dietary supplement (in poultry food for
>> example) it passes through the digestive
>> system physically unchanged but will adsorb
>> a high proportion of the gases and some
>> toxins produced in the process of digestion,
>> because that is what charcoal does. For this
>> reason, it's adsorption capability, poultry
>> will generally do better on a little charcoal.
>>
>> Quite a few pages could be filled on the
>> beneficial services provided by charcoal as
>> it travels through the digestive system, but
>> it does it as charcoal only and as nothing
>> else. By all means use a little in the
>> feed, you can only benefit.
>>
>> The only physical way to change the nature
>> of charcoal is to burn it. That is why it
>> lasts in soil (or wherever it is) for
>> thousands of years.
>>
>> It has an incredibly high surface area of
>> 360 m^2 (varies) and is a mass of minute
>> tunnels which in turn means a very high
>> volume and gases become trapped in these
>> tunnels.It does not _ab_sorb, it _ad_sorbs
>> and traps only.The difference between absorb
>> and adsorb is the same as the difference in
>> liquids of suspension and solution.Clay
>> particles will be in suspension, sugar and
>> salt go into solution.
>>
>> Charcoal is useful in an aerobic composting
>> system because again of the entrapment of
>> air in the tunnels.A composting system goes
>> well if there is enough oxygen bearing air
>> available to the bacteria which are a
>> significant part of the system.The more air,
>> the higher the population of bacteria (other
>> factors being OK). The charcoal itself is
>> inoperative, and doesn't change, nor is it a
>> catalyst, it simply provides a service. It
>> will only provide a haven for soil
>> benevolent bacteria if there is something
>> trapped in the tunnels which the bacteria
>> can eat.
>>
>> Charcoal is a good adsorber of gas and
>> liquid simply because that is what it
>> does.Zeolite on the other hand, can have an
>> even higher surface are per gram and has a
>> propensity to entrap gases, most
>> particularly nitrogen in it's various forms
>> -- as gas -- ammonium for example -- and in
>> liquids as a salt of NO_3 .It actually draws
>> them in (like a magnet attracts ferric
>> objects) where charcoal just takes it as it
>> comes. It is easy to see also why
>> charcoal is so effective as a filter, but if
>> you have a solution rich in nitrogen, run it
>> through Zeolite and the N will be removed.
>> Add some to the litter in poultry grower
>> sheds, there will be fewer mortalities
>> because the ammonia which sometimes will
>> asphixiate small birds will be absorbed.
>> Zeolite will take N out of solution,
>> charcoal will not. There's 40 natural
>> forms of Zeolite and more than another 150
>> can be synthesised, so choose carefully for
>> the one most appropriate to your problem.
>> Zeolite can perform an amazing range of
>> actions. Once used and applied as
>> fertiliser, Zeolite subsequently will
>> release the N slowly and remain in the soil
>> as a balancer of N. Too much, it will take
>> it in (so that the soil pH is not lowered)
>> and release it as required.
>>
>> Charcoal's great stuff though, it's easy to
>> make and holds answers to a lot of problems
>> - but not all !
>>
>> David Murphy.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gasification mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email
>> address
>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>> <mailto:Gasification at bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings
>> use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Gasifiers, News and Information
>> see our web site:
>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Joe Barnas
>> Portland, OR
>> 541-525-1665
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gasification mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2013 18:45:24 +1100
> From: David Murphy <djfmurphy at dodo.com.au>
> To: Discussion of biomass pyrolysis and gasification
> <gasification at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Gasification] Biochar et al.
> Message-ID: <52A42394.5010509 at dodo.com.au>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>
> Joe, my apologies - a typo. Instead of " a
> world which generates now (probably) 20 million
> tonnes annually." that should read 20 _billion_
> not million !
>
> On 08/12/2013 12:33 PM, Joe Barnas wrote:
>> DAVID,
>>
>> Thankyou for the insightful overview of biochar
>> and comparative functionality of Zeolite, of
>> which I was not familiar.
>>
>> However one thing I am focused on is how to
>> address catastrophic global climate change and
>> for that having billions of gardeners
>> sequestering carbon, while building healthy soil
>> and hence healthy food is not something that
>> Zeolite can provide. It is another tool in
>> growing food, yes, but let's not lose sight of
>> the long term benefit of promoting biochar. I
>> might even try mixing some with biochar just to
>> gain the N adsorption benefits.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 2:00 PM, David Murphy
>> <djfmurphy at dodo.com.au
>> <mailto:djfmurphy at dodo.com.au>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Greetings Biochar/Gasifier people !
>>
>> Everybody & his dog seems to have something
>> to say about
>> charcoal/biochar/biochar-compost mix and so
>> on.Well, here's another dog to bark his piece !
>>
>> Biochar is often seen as the great
>> agricultural panacea, but _it is
>> not_.Biochar is a name given to plain
>> ordinary charcoal to indicate that it is
>> destined for use in soil improvement, but
>> basically it is still plain ordinary
>> charcoal, just crushed into smaller
>> particles. In some circumstances it is a
>> very beneficial tool but it is not magical
>> as some proponents seem to think. Just
>> remember, all charcoal has a bio-origin - wood.
>>
>> In some Ag. trials in Australiait
>> significantly improved crop volume (treble
>> in one case) but in other instances, nothing
>> worth writing home about.It depends on what
>> the soil is like to start with.
>>
>> Charcoal is stable.That means it does not
>> take part in any composting system (which is
>> one primarily of bacterial digestion) and it
>> is indigestible so that when offered as a
>> dietary supplement (in poultry food for
>> example) it passes through the digestive
>> system physically unchanged but will adsorb
>> a high proportion of the gases and some
>> toxins produced in the process of digestion,
>> because that is what charcoal does. For this
>> reason, it's adsorption capability, poultry
>> will generally do better on a little charcoal.
>>
>> Quite a few pages could be filled on the
>> beneficial services provided by charcoal as
>> it travels through the digestive system, but
>> it does it as charcoal only and as nothing
>> else. By all means use a little in the
>> feed, you can only benefit.
>>
>> The only physical way to change the nature
>> of charcoal is to burn it. That is why it
>> lasts in soil (or wherever it is) for
>> thousands of years.
>>
>> It has an incredibly high surface area of
>> 360 m^2 (varies) and is a mass of minute
>> tunnels which in turn means a very high
>> volume and gases become trapped in these
>> tunnels.It does not _ab_sorb, it _ad_sorbs
>> and traps only.The difference between absorb
>> and adsorb is the same as the difference in
>> liquids of suspension and solution.Clay
>> particles will be in suspension, sugar and
>> salt go into solution.
>>
>> Charcoal is useful in an aerobic composting
>> system because again of the entrapment of
>> air in the tunnels.A composting system goes
>> well if there is enough oxygen bearing air
>> available to the bacteria which are a
>> significant part of the system.The more air,
>> the higher the population of bacteria (other
>> factors being OK). The charcoal itself is
>> inoperative, and doesn't change, nor is it a
>> catalyst, it simply provides a service. It
>> will only provide a haven for soil
>> benevolent bacteria if there is something
>> trapped in the tunnels which the bacteria
>> can eat.
>>
>> Charcoal is a good adsorber of gas and
>> liquid simply because that is what it
>> does.Zeolite on the other hand, can have an
>> even higher surface are per gram and has a
>> propensity to entrap gases, most
>> particularly nitrogen in it's various forms
>> -- as gas -- ammonium for example -- and in
>> liquids as a salt of NO_3 .It actually draws
>> them in (like a magnet attracts ferric
>> objects) where charcoal just takes it as it
>> comes. It is easy to see also why
>> charcoal is so effective as a filter, but if
>> you have a solution rich in nitrogen, run it
>> through Zeolite and the N will be removed.
>> Add some to the litter in poultry grower
>> sheds, there will be fewer mortalities
>> because the ammonia which sometimes will
>> asphixiate small birds will be absorbed.
>> Zeolite will take N out of solution,
>> charcoal will not. There's 40 natural
>> forms of Zeolite and more than another 150
>> can be synthesised, so choose carefully for
>> the one most appropriate to your problem.
>> Zeolite can perform an amazing range of
>> actions. Once used and applied as
>> fertiliser, Zeolite subsequently will
>> release the N slowly and remain in the soil
>> as a balancer of N. Too much, it will take
>> it in (so that the soil pH is not lowered)
>> and release it as required.
>>
>> Charcoal's great stuff though, it's easy to
>> make and holds answers to a lot of problems
>> - but not all !
>>
>> David Murphy.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gasification mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email
>> address
>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>> <mailto:Gasification at bioenergylists.org>
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings
>> use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Gasifiers, News and Information
>> see our web site:
>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Joe Barnas
>> Portland, OR
>> 541-525-1665
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gasification mailing list
>>
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Gasification at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/gasification_lists.bioenergylists.org
>>
>> for more Gasifiers, News and Information see our web site:
>> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>
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> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gasification mailing list
>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
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> http://gasifiers.bioenergylists.org/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Gasification Digest, Vol 40, Issue 8
> *******************************************
>
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