[Greenbuilding] Stale Air

Brian Uher brian at amicusgreen.com
Mon Dec 13 15:21:18 CST 2010


Does anyone know of an integrated sensor system - temp., humidity, CO2,
CO, etc. - that interpolates and controls the system - that works?
Remote coupling to web?

Thank you,
Brian Uher



On 12/13/10 4:15 PM, Alan Abrams wrote:
> none of this negates John Salmen's comment that ventilation rates
> could be too high when buildings are not occupied or when occupied at
> lower than design density--just that CO2 level may not be the way to
> regulate ventilation for this effect.
>
> a
>
> *Alan Abrams**
> Abrams Design Build LLC*
> /A sustainable approach to beautiful space/
> alan at abramsdesignbuild.com <mailto:alan at abramsdesignbuild.com>
> www.abramsdesignbuild.com <http://www.abramsdesignbuild.com>
> *202-726-5894 o
> 202-437-8583 c
> 202-291-0626 f*
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 9:58 AM, John Straube <jfstraube at gmail.com
> <mailto:jfstraube at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Oh and CO kills you at rather low levels.
>     Sent from my BlackBerry®
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: Keith Winston <keith at earthsunenergy.com
>     <mailto:keith at earthsunenergy.com>>
>     Sender: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
>     <mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org>
>     Date: Mon, 13 Dec 2010 00:25:03
>     To: <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
>     <mailto:greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>>
>     Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Stale Air
>
>     Um, apples and oranges here, no? John is talking about CO2, and
>     Stephen
>     responded concerning CO. One is a natural result of breathing, and the
>     other generally occurs indoors in significant quantities when a
>     combustion appliance is maladjusted. There is no reliable correlation
>     between the two.
>
>     Keith
>
>
>
>
>     On 12/12/2010 10:31 PM, JOHN SALMEN wrote:
>     > Sorry Stephen – I know you know all that stuff, I liked the question
>     > and was thinking out loud and still thinking out loud. One of the
>     > interesting things for me is that when someone is cyanotic or
>     hypoxic
>     > in a medical situation it is pretty apparent. Basically co2
>     drives our
>     > breathing as we eliminate it. Chronic high(er) levels of co2 in our
>     > built environment may be an issue. It would never be the case that
>     > there was not sufficient oxygen – more that the body becomes
>     less able
>     > to utilize the oxygen as it becomes less able to eliminate co2
>     or other
>     > mixtures of gases. So we end up with chronic problems.
>     >
>     > That is one thought and then a companion thought is that co2 is
>     used as
>     > an indicator – if it is present at higher levels then other
>     gases are
>     > so is a broad measuring tool for IAQ and these gases interact. I
>     think
>     > we are allowed approximately double the exterior co2 level for
>     indoor
>     > environments. Perhaps that is too high for an aging or health
>     > compromised population.
>     >
>     > Increasingly I think ventilation rates are too low (and people spend
>     > too much time indoors but ironically not that much time in their
>     > houses). Are we heating and ventilating houses far too much when are
>     > unoccupied and then ventilating sufficiently for when they are? How
>     > well is demand controlled ventilation actually working?
>     >
>     > Thanks for the question – has me scratching my head as well.
>     >
>     > John
>     >
>     >_JOHN SALMEN ENVIRONMENTAL DESIGN_
>     >
>     > /4465 UPHILL RD//,. DUNCAN, B.C. CANADA, V9L 6M7/
>     >
>     > /PH 250 748 7672 FAX 250 748 7612 CELL 250 246 8541/
>     >
>     > /terrain at shaw.ca/ <http://terrain@shaw.ca/>
>     >
>     >
>     -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     >
>     > *From:*Stephen Collette [mailto:stephen at yourhealthyhouse.ca
>     <mailto:stephen at yourhealthyhouse.ca>]
>     > *Sent:* December 12, 2010 4:44 PM
>     > *To:* JOHN SALMEN
>     > *Cc:* Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>     <mailto:Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org>
>     > *Subject:* Stale Air
>     >
>     > Thanks for your thoughts John. I am wondering how useful the
>     > measurement of CO2 in homes is. I have a CO meter and pull it out on
>     > occasion and to my memory have not found anything with it in a home.
>     > Typically with a couple of people or small family in a single family
>     > dwelling, I wonder whether they alone could ever get the levels
>     up to
>     > something dangerous? Now blended families or extended families all
>     > living under one roof, I think that may be possible.
>     >
>     > I'm not disagreeing with you at all, what you are saying is what
>     I talk
>     > about too, but again, is it actually valid? I don't know, and
>     hence the
>     > head scratching.
>     >
>     > Grateful for your time thinking about this.
>     >
>     > Stephen
>     >
>     > Stephen Collette BBEC, LEED AP, BSSO
>     >
>     > */Your Healthy House/*-Indoor Environmental Testing & Building
>     Consulting
>     >
>     > http://www.yourhealthyhouse.ca
>     >
>     > stephen at yourhealthyhouse.ca <mailto:stephen at yourhealthyhouse.ca>
>     <mailto:stephen at yourhealthyhouse.ca
>     <mailto:stephen at yourhealthyhouse.ca>>
>     >
>     > 705.652.5159
>     >
>     >> Hi,
>     >>
>     >> There are a lot of adjectives for air – stale, stagnant, dead,
>     fetid…
>     >>
>     >> Air basically means for us oxygen as a requirement – so stale air
>     >> could simply be oxygen poor air.
>     >>
>     >> .
>     >>
>     >> With ashrae I guess there is adequate ventilation and inadequate
>     >> ventilation and stale would be an excess of unventilated air
>     >> (stale??). Ashrae uses co2 concentrations as the indicator for
>     >> adequate ventilation so there definition is ppm for various uses.
>     >>
>     >> In emergency first aid I measure ventilation rates, blood oxygen
>     >> levels as well of level of consciousness – all of which could
>     reveal
>     >> an emergency condition in students in a classroom at the end of
>     a day
>     >> subject to averaged ventilation and subsequent ‘stale’ air. Tidal
>     >> volume (breath) is about 500ml with about 14% oxygen and 4.4% co2
>     >> exhaled – outside air is about 21% oxygen and .04% co2.
>     >>
>     >> So a significant amount of c02 is released on each breath in
>     >> comparison to the intake – so we could say that ‘stale air’ is any
>     >> air exhaled.
>     >>
>     >> Fun question.
>     >>
>     >> John
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >>
>     >
>     >
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