[Greenbuilding] epdm vs. tar geen roof

Mon Aug 29 14:53:17 CDT 2011

It is strange you all are saying that torch down rolls are the way to
go. I was always under the impression that EPDM lasted a lot longer. I
just called Allied Roofing and they confirmed that the manufacturers
warranty for roll down is about 20 years and EPDM is about 30 years.

Gennaro Brooks-Church

Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA
www.EcoBrooklyn.com
22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:46 PM, John Straube <jfstraube at gmail.com> wrote:
> My experience with pricing is different John.
> Orifice choke valves on roof drains do a good job and are a couple hundred bucks per drain.
> The premium for a green roof is at least $10 per square foot plus any additional structure cost. That often shows up as a lot of money.
> Storm water management of parking lots is a different beast.
>
> Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "JOHN SALMEN" <terrain at shaw.ca>
> Sender: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 09:18:41
> To: 'Green Building'<greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>; 'Rob Tom'<Archilogic at yahoo.ca>
> Reply-To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] epdm vs. tar geen roof
>
> I would agree about 2 ply bitumen as a decent option at least from
> durability and recycled content. I disagree about simpler methods for
> stormwater retention - which is probably one of the most redeeming features
> of a green roof (adding stormwater quality to that). Most other methods are
> ground invasive and require a different and costly level of engineering and
> technology (even a good porous parking lot is difficult to do well).
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of John
> Straube
> Sent: August-29-11 8:32 AM
> To: Rob Tom; Green Building
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] epdm vs. tar geen roof
>
> Practical experience with EPDM roofs is that they do not have great
> durability.  This is one reason they, and TPO, are almost never used in
> green roofs. I would also assume you would be specifying a protected
> membrane roof in any case you care about durability.  Worry about which
> membrane uses more or less oil or energy seems completely misplaced if there
> is a trade off with durability which there will be with roofing products.
> Pick the most durable, or nearly the most durable, roof membrane and save
> environmental impact on the life-cycle.
> Tar roof is not sufficiently specific to make judgements.  There are many
> types.
> I would always recommend either a two-ply modified bitumen roof, or liquid
> applied glass matt reinforced hot rubberized asphalt if all you cared about
> was durability.
>
> Speaking of cooking the books, Dr Lui's report, like most you will find,
> over sell the performance benefits of green roofs.  They do this by
> comparing an excellent green roof design with the dumbest low slope roof we
> know how to build (an exposed membrane black roof).   A fair comparison is
> to compare a green roof to a protect membrane roof (PMR) with white balast
> (pavers or river rock).  When this is done the energy savings and durability
> benefits of a green roof essentially vanish.  The benefits of dust removal,
> stormwater retention remain.  There are cheaper ways to retain stormwater
> than a green roof.  The reason for a green roof is mostly because they are
> beautiful to look at relative to the options, and in intensely urban areas
> they add to biodiversity (they don't do much in rural settings).
>
>
>
> On 2011-08-29, at 10:20 AM, RT wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 23:13:45 -0400, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn
> <info at ecobrooklyn.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> So....over 30 years.
>>> Tar roof - $40, more petro chemicals consumed, more waster created.
>>> EPDM + green roof - $40,
>>
>>> Your thoughts? How do my numbers look?
>>
>>
>> I'd say that the numbers look like they were "cooked" by someone who might
> have done creative book-keeping for Tony Soprano et al.
>>
>> But aside from that, all or most of the benefits in the comparison are due
> to the Green Roof component and a Green Roof can be installed over any
> waterproof membrane and provide the same benefits.
>>
>> Without actually checking the actual numbers (not my job, eh ?) I have a
> gut feeling that the embodied-energy of a hot-mopped tar membrane is lower
> than that of an EPDM.
>>
>> But using Gennaro's numbers for life expectancy -- 30 years -- I'd say
> that that's pretty ?!$$-poor performance (PPPP or 4P).
>>
>> Any Greenie worth their chlorophyll would shun asphalt shingles as a
> sloped roofing option largely because of their short service life (30 years
> max) and their high waste factor (ie not recyclable for the most part) so
> it's curious that one would consider a 30-year tar or EPDM membrane as
> viable options for a flat roof.
>>
>> That is to say, perhaps third, fourth or fifth non-petro options might be
> considered for the membrane (the Green Roof being a "given" if for no other
> reason, because it extends the life of the membrane, like IRMAs).
>>
>> The other benefits are quantified in Dr. Karen Lui's report (if the IRC at
> NRC) which I've cited here numerous times in the past.
>>
>> --
>> === * ===
>> Rob Tom
>> Kanata, Ontario, Canada
>> < A r c h i L o g i c  at  Y a h o o  dot  c a >
>> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "reply")
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Greenbuilding mailing list
>> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
>> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>>
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
>>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
> gylists.org
>
> Dr John Straube, P.Eng.
> Associate Professor
> University of Waterloo
> Dept of Civil Eng. & School of Architecture
> www.buildingscience.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
> gylists.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
>