[Greenbuilding] epdm vs. tar geen roof

Mon Aug 29 15:22:44 CDT 2011

Just a side note: aren't torch down roofs illegal in NYC?

David

At 03:53 PM 8/29/2011, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn wrote:
>It is strange you all are saying that torch down rolls are the way to
>go. I was always under the impression that EPDM lasted a lot longer. I
>just called Allied Roofing and they confirmed that the manufacturers
>warranty for roll down is about 20 years and EPDM is about 30 years.
>
>Gennaro Brooks-Church
>
>Cell: 1 347 244 3016 USA
>www.EcoBrooklyn.com
>22 2nd St; Brooklyn, NY 11231
>
>
>
>
>On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:46 PM, John Straube <jfstraube at gmail.com> wrote:
> > My experience with pricing is different John.
> > Orifice choke valves on roof drains do a good job and are a 
> couple hundred bucks per drain.
> > The premium for a green roof is at least $10 per square foot plus 
> any additional structure cost. That often shows up as a lot of money.
> > Storm water management of parking lots is a different beast.
> >
> > Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "JOHN SALMEN" <terrain at shaw.ca>
> > Sender: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 09:18:41
> > To: 'Green Building'<greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>; 
> 'Rob Tom'<Archilogic at yahoo.ca>
> > Reply-To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> > Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] epdm vs. tar geen roof
> >
> > I would agree about 2 ply bitumen as a decent option at least from
> > durability and recycled content. I disagree about simpler methods for
> > stormwater retention - which is probably one of the most redeeming features
> > of a green roof (adding stormwater quality to that). Most other methods are
> > ground invasive and require a different and costly level of engineering and
> > technology (even a good porous parking lot is difficult to do well).
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of John
> > Straube
> > Sent: August-29-11 8:32 AM
> > To: Rob Tom; Green Building
> > Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] epdm vs. tar geen roof
> >
> > Practical experience with EPDM roofs is that they do not have great
> > durability.  This is one reason they, and TPO, are almost never used in
> > green roofs. I would also assume you would be specifying a protected
> > membrane roof in any case you care about durability.  Worry about which
> > membrane uses more or less oil or energy seems completely 
> misplaced if there
> > is a trade off with durability which there will be with roofing products.
> > Pick the most durable, or nearly the most durable, roof membrane and save
> > environmental impact on the life-cycle.
> > Tar roof is not sufficiently specific to make judgements.  There are many
> > types.
> > I would always recommend either a two-ply modified bitumen roof, or liquid
> > applied glass matt reinforced hot rubberized asphalt if all you cared about
> > was durability.
> >
> > Speaking of cooking the books, Dr Lui's report, like most you will find,
> > over sell the performance benefits of green roofs.  They do this by
> > comparing an excellent green roof design with the dumbest low slope roof we
> > know how to build (an exposed membrane black roof).   A fair comparison is
> > to compare a green roof to a protect membrane roof (PMR) with white balast
> > (pavers or river rock).  When this is done the energy savings and 
> durability
> > benefits of a green roof essentially vanish.  The benefits of dust removal,
> > stormwater retention remain.  There are cheaper ways to retain stormwater
> > than a green roof.  The reason for a green roof is mostly because they are
> > beautiful to look at relative to the options, and in intensely urban areas
> > they add to biodiversity (they don't do much in rural settings).
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2011-08-29, at 10:20 AM, RT wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 28 Aug 2011 23:13:45 -0400, Gennaro Brooks-Church - Eco Brooklyn
> > <info at ecobrooklyn.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> So....over 30 years.
> >>> Tar roof - $40, more petro chemicals consumed, more waster created.
> >>> EPDM + green roof - $40,
> >>
> >>> Your thoughts? How do my numbers look?
> >>
> >>
> >> I'd say that the numbers look like they were "cooked" by someone who might
> > have done creative book-keeping for Tony Soprano et al.
> >>
> >> But aside from that, all or most of the benefits in the comparison are due
> > to the Green Roof component and a Green Roof can be installed over any
> > waterproof membrane and provide the same benefits.
> >>
> >> Without actually checking the actual numbers (not my job, eh ?) I have a
> > gut feeling that the embodied-energy of a hot-mopped tar membrane is lower
> > than that of an EPDM.
> >>
> >> But using Gennaro's numbers for life expectancy -- 30 years -- I'd say
> > that that's pretty ?!$$-poor performance (PPPP or 4P).
> >>
> >> Any Greenie worth their chlorophyll would shun asphalt shingles as a
> > sloped roofing option largely because of their short service life (30 years
> > max) and their high waste factor (ie not recyclable for the most part) so
> > it's curious that one would consider a 30-year tar or EPDM membrane as
> > viable options for a flat roof.
> >>
> >> That is to say, perhaps third, fourth or fifth non-petro options might be
> > considered for the membrane (the Green Roof being a "given" if for no other
> > reason, because it extends the life of the membrane, like IRMAs).
> >>
> >> The other benefits are quantified in Dr. Karen Lui's report (if the IRC at
> > NRC) which I've cited here numerous times in the past.
> >>
> >> --
> >> === * ===
> >> Rob Tom
> >> Kanata, Ontario, Canada
> >> < A r c h i L o g i c  at  Y a h o o  dot  c a >
> >> (manually winnow the chaff from my edress if you hit "reply")
> >>
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> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
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> >
> > Dr John Straube, P.Eng.
> > Associate Professor
> > University of Waterloo
> > Dept of Civil Eng. & School of Architecture
> > www.buildingscience.com
> >
> >
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David Bergman  RA   LEED AP
DAVID BERGMAN ARCHITECT / FIRE & WATER LIGHTING + FURNITURE
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