[Greenbuilding] Radiant Hot Water? / Re: Zoned Heating Options

Fri Feb 18 21:40:06 CST 2011

I'm not so thrilled about the heat pumps option if they would be using freon
within the tubes, is that how these things still work?

How about options related to a gas boiler that would be able to supply
retrofitted radiant heat on a zone by zone basis within the house?  Maybe
with the option for incorporating some pre-heating from a passive solar
system as well?  Any thoughts on this type of system?

~Frank

----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 08:56:06 -0500
> From: "John O'Brien" <john at boardom.ca>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 5, Issue 45
> Message-ID:
>        <AANLkTinGqu_W2WciE=Q0a3aFk-pP38dr_A8JJb5kLqBv at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> You're lucky to get down to -25C frank... My friend had a fuji RLQ
> that kicks out at -15C. All of the literature I've seen for the Fuji's
> state 5F/-15C as a minimum operating temp. I was under the impression
> you had to go to a mitsubishi or daiken to get below that.
>
> John
>
> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Paul Eldridge
> <paul.eldridge at ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > Hi Frank,
> >
> > I would recommend a high efficiency ductless heat pump such as the
> Fujitsu
> > 12RLS.? We have two ductless heat pumps in our home that satisfy
> virtually
> > all of our space heating needs -- an older and now discontinued Friedrich
> > and a Sanyo 12KHS71.
> >
> > Earlier today I read the Kill-a-Watt monitor for our Sanyo. In past the
> 109
> > hours, it has consumed 41.56 kWh, which works out to be an average of
> > 381-watts or 9.15 kWh/day.? Our average temperature during this time was
> > -4.4?C (max: +1?C / min: -11?C) and this particular unit serves a little
> > over 100 m2/1,100 ft2 without the assistance of any other heat source.?
> It
> > operates down to roughly -25?C and below that our oil-fired boiler takes
> > over.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Paul
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 22:08:37 -0500
> > From: Frank Cetera <alchemicalfranklen at gmail.com>
> > To: greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Subject: [Greenbuilding] Heating Options
> > Message-ID:
> >       <AANLkTinHq1wk4aDMUXUF27L3mW3wu2u_jCGs4G9U+rdf at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > I'd like to pose the following question to the group:
> >
> > Whereas I am renovating a home from a vacant shell condition in which it
> is
> > currently inhabitable;
> > Whereas I desire a Finnish Masonry ContraFlow Stove as the eventual
> primary
> > heating source of my home;
> > whereas I likely won't have the time to have one installed before the
> next
> > heating season at which time I desire to be living in this house;
> > As well as I likely won't have the funds to install one immediately as I
> > will need some extra cash to install a foundation block of concrete below
> > where the heater will be positioned;
> >
> > What would be a good heating system that:
> > Doesn't rely on ductwork
> > Would be able to heat by zone or room (it would just be me living in the
> > home at first)
> > Would function as a backup/secondary source once the Masonry stove was in
> > place
> >
> > Upstate NY
> > Single Family, 2-story, 1300 sq. ft.
> >
> > ~ Frank Cetera
> > www.alchemicalnursery.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Greenbuilding mailing list
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 14:03:12 +0000
> From: jfstraube at gmail.com
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 5, Issue 45
> Message-ID:
>
>  <1911526484-1296482589-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-348820687- at bda218.bisx.prod.on.blackberry
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> The last generation was more limited. Most of the new products released in
> the last couple of years are going under -20.
> The HyperHeat has solid performance but suffers from mediocre efficiency at
> temps in the -10 and up range.
>
> Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.
> Envoy? sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le r?seau de Bell.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "John O'Brien" <john at boardom.ca>
> Sender: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 08:56:06
> To: Green Building<greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Reply-To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 5, Issue 45
>
> You're lucky to get down to -25C frank... My friend had a fuji RLQ
> that kicks out at -15C. All of the literature I've seen for the Fuji's
> state 5F/-15C as a minimum operating temp. I was under the impression
> you had to go to a mitsubishi or daiken to get below that.
>
> John
>
> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 3:35 PM, Paul Eldridge
> <paul.eldridge at ns.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > Hi Frank,
> >
> > I would recommend a high efficiency ductless heat pump such as the
> Fujitsu
> > 12RLS.? We have two ductless heat pumps in our home that satisfy
> virtually
> > all of our space heating needs -- an older and now discontinued Friedrich
> > and a Sanyo 12KHS71.
> >
> > Earlier today I read the Kill-a-Watt monitor for our Sanyo. In past the
> 109
> > hours, it has consumed 41.56 kWh, which works out to be an average of
> > 381-watts or 9.15 kWh/day.? Our average temperature during this time was
> > -4.4?C (max: +1?C / min: -11?C) and this particular unit serves a little
> > over 100 m2/1,100 ft2 without the assistance of any other heat source.?
> It
> > operates down to roughly -25?C and below that our oil-fired boiler takes
> > over.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Paul
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 22:08:37 -0500
> > From: Frank Cetera <alchemicalfranklen at gmail.com>
> > To: greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
> > Subject: [Greenbuilding] Heating Options
> > Message-ID:
> >       <AANLkTinHq1wk4aDMUXUF27L3mW3wu2u_jCGs4G9U+rdf at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > I'd like to pose the following question to the group:
> >
> > Whereas I am renovating a home from a vacant shell condition in which it
> is
> > currently inhabitable;
> > Whereas I desire a Finnish Masonry ContraFlow Stove as the eventual
> primary
> > heating source of my home;
> > whereas I likely won't have the time to have one installed before the
> next
> > heating season at which time I desire to be living in this house;
> > As well as I likely won't have the funds to install one immediately as I
> > will need some extra cash to install a foundation block of concrete below
> > where the heater will be positioned;
> >
> > What would be a good heating system that:
> > Doesn't rely on ductwork
> > Would be able to heat by zone or room (it would just be me living in the
> > home at first)
> > Would function as a backup/secondary source once the Masonry stove was in
> > place
> >
> > Upstate NY
> > Single Family, 2-story, 1300 sq. ft.
> >
> > ~ Frank Cetera
> > www.alchemicalnursery.org
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> > Greenbuilding mailing list
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioenergylists.org
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Greenbuilding mailing list
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
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>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 10:25:49 -0500
> From: "Reibstein, Rick (EEA)" <Rick.Reibstein at state.ma.us>
> To: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Nansulate Insulation
> Message-ID:
>        <
> 50835C760ED4D344874E6FB7A31E70839474F48C at ES-MSG-EMB-001.es.govt.state.ma.us
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Here's some recent government "commentary" on nano, if of interest,
> articulating some principles for reducing risks over the life of the
> nanomaterial-containing product.  Regulations are more likely to be
> developed once general principles for what they ought to achieve have been
> widely accepted.  This guidance was well-received in many quarters, but
> progress is tenuous in this era where regulations are too often thought of
> as bad for the economy. See also EPA's TSCA reform, which has been focusing
> on nanomaterials, but which may not move as quickly as some might desire
> with this Congress.  The outlook of this document is that the absence of
> good management practices (which regulations would help ensure) is what
> really creates risks for the business itself, not just health and the
> environment.
> http://www.mass.gov/Eoeea/docs/eea/ota/tech_reports/ota_nanotech_guidance.pdf
>
> Rick Reibstein
> MA Office of Technical Assistance
> Executive Office of Energy and Environmental Affairs
> 9th floor, 100 Cambridge Street
> Boston, MA 02114
> 617 626 1062
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org [mailto:
> greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of JOHN SALMEN
> Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 1:22 AM
> To: 'Green Building'
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Nansulate Insulation
>
> The thing with nano technology is that at the same point that we are
> starting to talk about risk we are already getting it as products. This is
> a
> huge huge emerging technology that is crossing and essentially
> revolutionizing every product boundary from medicine to food to building
> without significant regulatory research or commentary.
>
>
> JOHN SALMEN ENVIRONMENTAL DESIGN
> 4465 UPHILL RD,. DUNCAN, B.C.  CANADA, V9L 6M7
> PH 250 748 7672 FAX 250 748 7612 CELL 250 246 8541
> terrain at shaw.ca
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org
> [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of
> elitalking
> Sent: January 28, 2011 8:14 PM
> To: Green Building
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Nansulate Insulation
>
> Just a follow up on what I concluded from your input concerning Nansulate.
> I had investigated aerogel when this product was brought to my attention by
> a client.  It had a sheet product that claimed an R10/inch.  Some PH
> projects that retrofitted old europeon stone buildings used it.  It's
> premium value was where dimension was limited.  However, $/R was very high.
>
> Genarro Brooks-Church used it however, was not pleased with the results.
> John Salmen used a similar nano technology as an additive to paint to add
> to
> durability and not a insulation.  He made a credible case for that
> application.  However, the Nansulate gave bold claimes for performance as
> insulation without giving an R value.  If it has an R value of 10/inch as
> aerogel claimes and 3 coats over existing finishes that could retain their
> visual identidy and therefore not require another finish material, likley
> could achieve 1/8" over 3 or 4 coats.  This would only be an R1.2 or so.
> That is not as good as insulated glass.
>
> Steve included some good links about aerogel that are forwarded below.
>
> I see there is a basis for the technology.  However, I am suspicious of the
> performance they are claiming.  Also, there are some unknows regarding the
> health affects that add to the risk.  I would love to hear of someone who
> actually used it for insulation as the manufacturers are promoting and here
> about the performance.  Although, I am not willing to go out on that limb.
>
> Eli
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve" <steve at greengeek.ca>
> To: "Green Building" <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 10:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] Nansulate Insulation
>
>
> > Hi Eli,
> >
> >> http://www.nansulate.com/nansulate_homeprotect_clearcoat.htm
> >>
> >> Is this stuff legitamate or snake oil?
> >
> > I've looked into several similar products over the last few years,
> > invariably none of them were any more effective at insulating than a
> > clay-based paint. I have no experience with this particular product,
> > but based on similar ones I've seen, I'd lean towards snake oil. I
> > hope I'm wrong about one of these products eventually though, as
> > paint-on insulation would be very beneficial!
> >
> > The closest I've seen to a thin insulation that have proven results
> > are aerogel-based products:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerogel
> > http://inhabitat.com/exciting-advances-in-insulation-with-aerogel/
> > http://www.aerogel.com/
> > http://thermablok.com/
> >
> > -Steve
> > --
> > http://www.greengeek.ca
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Greenbuilding mailing list
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
> > Greenbuilding at bioenergylists.org
> >
> > to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
> >
>
> http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener
> gylists.org<http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/greenbuilding_lists.bioener%0Agylists.org>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 13:21:41 -0500
> From: "elitalking" <elitalking at rockbridge.net>
> To: "John Daglish" <johndaglish at online.fr>,     "Green Building"
>        <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>,       "jfstraube"
>        <jfstraube at gmail.com>
> Cc: Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] first certified Passive House in Canada
> Message-ID: <014E3667F7574829A53F040CEE88DCB9 at lift>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-15";
>        reply-type=original
>
> John Daglish and list
>
> I am interested in how an air source heat pump is set up that would use the
> exhausting HRV air for the air heat source.  Intuitively this makes sense,
> because the exhausted air is much warmer than the ambient air during
> heating
> season.  Do you have manufacturers with equipment that does this?  Can we
> see a diagram or picture of an installation?  It seems to me, this would be
> another layer of heat recovery.  However, I have never seen this.
>
> Eli
>
> John Daglish writes:
> The certified Passivhaus quite often uses a heat pump in a
> combined HRV ventilation unit. The air to air heat pump extracts the heat
> from the
> outgoing ventilation air after the HRV heat exchanger and heats the
> incoming air after the heat exchanger of the HRV.
> Very few (if any?) use a convential heat pump air to air external or ground
> sourced heat pump. Its less costly to simply use the HRV "waste air"
> combined/compact unit for both air heating and domestic hot water
> heating than install a ground sourced heat pump.
> External air to air heat pumps decline markedly in performance when
> temperatures
> get very cold less than 0C.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
> End of Greenbuilding Digest, Vol 5, Issue 49
> ********************************************
>
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