[Greenbuilding] Visible Flames (Fireplaces) in Tight Houses

[Norbert Senf]

Under no circumstances should anything be put into the 2" air space that is
specified around a UL/ULC listed factory chimney.

If you put vermiculite in there, you are voiding the UL listing of the
chimney by virtue of not installing according to "manufacturers
instructions". This creates liability for you.

This is a common misconception, and is the reason for the  "attic radiation
shield" required in attics, which are required to have a storm collar on
them, specifically to prevent people from putting insulation into the 2"
air space. Here in Canada, a radiation shield is also required around
chimneys in chases, specifically to avoid this scenario.

This is not an issue in normal use. However, the ULC-621 listing means the
chimney system (including the air space) has been tested to survive three
30 minute chimney fires at 2100F, without torching the adjacent walls. Put
vermiculite into the air space, and the wall will burn. I have seen photos
of where this has happened.

Norbert

On Wed, Dec 3, 2014 at 9:43 AM, <conservationarchitect at rockbridge.net>
wrote:

>   Alan
>
> How tight were the openings into this closed loop fireplace?  This may be
> acceptable to my client.   .6ach at 50pa is impressive with these
> handicaps.  What would your recommendation for interior cloths dryer be?
>
> As an alternative to the insulated chase, could you define a space up to a
> triple wall chimney that has the specified clearance to combustible
> material filled with non combustible insulation such as vermiculite.
>
> Thanks
> Eli
>
>
>  *From:* Alan Abrams <alan at abramsdesignbuild.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 02, 2014 2:17 PM
> *To:* Green Building <greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Greenbuilding] Visible Flames (Fireplaces) in Tight Houses
>
>  in a recent project for other pyrophilic clients, (and despite all my
> hand wringing to them) I spec'd a wood stove by Napoleon:
> http://www.napoleonfireplaces.com/products/nz26-zero-clearance-and-masonry-fireplace/
>
> even with that gratuitous feature (and a conventional clothes drier) the
> house came in below 0.6 ACH at 50 PA. One nice feature is that the stove has
> provision to route air heated within its jacket to remote locations, so the
> occupants don't collapse from heat prostration while it's in use. In the
> subject case, hot air was ducted to a point adjacent to the heat pump
> return (direct connect is prohibited by the mnfr)
>
> one thing to bear in mind is that the length of the flue, even with a roof
> top damper, represents an ambient or near ambient condition. applying
> insulation directly against the flue is prohibited, so an insulated chase
> was provided instead.
>
> -AA
>
>
>  Alan Abrams
>
> *certified professional building designer, AIBDcertified passive house
> consultant, PHIUS*
> *certified passive house builder, PHIUS*
> cell     202-437-8583
> alan at abramsdesignbuild.com
> HELICON WORKS *Achitecture and Education*
> <http://www.heliconworks.com/index2.html>
>
> On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 1:37 PM, <conservationarchitect at rockbridge.net>
> wrote:
>
>>   I intend to build only high standard thermal envelopes.  I have a
>> client that expresses interest in this except she wants a fireplace.  Ugh!
>> I am looking for ways for her to see an open flame that will not compromise
>> the benefit  of a high standard thermal envelope.  I have suggested an
>> outdoor air fed wood stove with a glass door.  This could be installed to
>> look like a traditional fireplace.
>> She has expressed interest in unvented gas fireplace, Ugh again!  I
>> certainly do not want CO being introduced by design into a tight thermal
>> envelope.  Increasing ventilation rates would be required.  I am wondering
>> if a vented gas fireplace that has outdoor air feed would be acceptable.  I
>> am wondering if others on this list have managed clients with the
>> expectation of seeing a flame in a tight thermal envelope.
>>
>>  I am beginning my career as a contractor.  My intention is to sale
>> predesigned homes that incorporate the high standard thermal envelope with
>> my details so my client and I know what the cost is up front.  To do this,
>> I am limiting what I will offer.  This is one reason I am moving away from
>> my previous custom design architect model where you must involve your
>> client in all decisions to build there dream building.
>> To achieve high energy performance buildings, multiple systems need to be
>> complimentary.  This is why I want to sale a package that achieves this.  I
>> am wanting to control these choices.  Sometimes that means turning down
>> projects.
>>
>>  Eli
>>
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>
>
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-- 
Norbert Senf
Masonry Stove Builders
25 Brouse Road, RR 5
Shawville Québec J0X 2Y0
819.647.5092
www.heatkit.com
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