[Greenbuilding] On Insulating Crawlspaces and Basements: BAD FOAM!

Reibstein, Rick (ENV) rick.reibstein at state.ma.us
Thu Jul 3 10:16:38 CDT 2014


Just saw the posting from early June below on spray foam.

I would like to add that even "green foams" contain other chemicals of concern besides global warmers and flame retardants, principally isocyanates that are powerful asthmagens and have no odor warning (so if you smell something it's actually other chemicals offgassing).  If you are using foam because, like many others, you consider it a very good air sealant and insulator, it is absolutely critical to do it right.  We had a couple of workshops on this in Massachusetts: see   http://www.mass.gov/eea/grants-and-tech-assistance/guidance-technical-assistance/agencies-and-divisions/ota/safe-spray.html
At one of them, consultant Henri Fennell http://polyurethanefoamconsulting.com/
 showed a picture of what we now call "fault interruption" equipment. A not terribly inexpensive addition to the truck-mounted systems, it monitors temperature, pressure and the ratio of parts A and B and shuts off the system once it goes off parameter.  In addition to making sure the applicator is properly trained (there are SPFA, Air Barriers Association, and Building Professional Institute training/certifications) and they are observing reoccupancy time periods, OSHA respiratory and glove protection (skin contact can cause sensitization), etc., it would be great if the use of fault-interruption equipment was widespread.  It would be great if the applicators used medical monitoring to detect the IgE that indicates immunological reaction, and shift exposed workers before they develop full-blown responses. There are other "it would be greats" of course, (such as protecting weatherizers using kits and cans from asthma/sensitization), these the primary lessons we learned from doing our workshops.


Rick Reibstein
Manager, Outreach and Policy
Office of Technical Assistance and Technology
Executive Office of Energy and Environmental Affairs
Commonwealth of Massachusetts
100 Cambridge St., 9th Floor
Boston, MA 02114
617 626 1062


     

-----Original Message-----
From: Greenbuilding [mailto:greenbuilding-bounces at lists.bioenergylists.org] On Behalf Of Leslie Moyer
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2014 9:26 PM
To: Keith Winston; greenbuilding at lists.bioenergylists.org
Subject: Re: [Greenbuilding] On Insulating Crawlspaces and Basements: BAD FOAM!

Keith (or anyone),

Do you know anything about "Foam It Green" as it relates to these issues (or others)?  It's a DIY spray foam kit.  They don't have too much info on their website....they are a member of the USGBC and "balance" their carbon emissions through Terrapass.

On 9/9/07, 11:57 AM, Keith Winston wrote:
> I don't have time to comment on your crawlspace issue, but I will say:
>
> Don't use TigerFoam, HandiFoam, and all other 2-part builder-applied 
> foams. Also, don't use contractors who use Dow FrothPak, which is the 
> same type of foam but in addition to small builder packages is 
> sometimes blown from trucks in large volumes.
>
> All these use refrigerants as blowing agents. They release 7-15 lbs of 
> refrigerants  (typically HFC's) for each 600 sf (board foot) package.
> The Global Warming Potential (CO2 equivalency) of these refrigerants 
> is around 1500-2000, which means that those (nominal) 10 lbs are 
> equivalent to about 7-10 TONS of CO2 release. That will counteract at 
> least the majority of your CO2 reductions resulting from better insulating.
>
> I think this is a scandal that needs to be exposed. I have been 
> talking about it with many people (including people in the industry), 
> but haven't really figured out how to get word out. Until/unless we 
> regulate carbon emissions, there are no regulatory tools to apply (the 
> manufacturers changed from CFC's and HCFC's as blowing agents to avoid 
> Ozone/Montreal Protocol problems).
>
> "Good" PU foams are blown using a proportioner with heated hoses in a 
> truck, and water is the blowing agent. Even the little one-part PU 
> foam cans from Home Depot, etc, are powered by isobutane or other 
> simple hydrocarbons with relatively low GWP.
>
> I am now accepting donations to my legal defense fund ;-)
>
> If I have anything wrong here, I'd love to know. Constituents can be
> (roughly) determined from MSDS sheets for foam products.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Thomas Lewis wrote:
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I just purchased a home and am developing my project list.
>>
>> I would like to pose my plan for insulating the crawlspace and 
>> basement for your comment.
>>
>> The crawlspace is ~180ft2 with a dry layed stone foundation of 
>> unknown depth and ~2' thick.  It has been worked on over the years.  
>> The exterior is pointed with a layer of stucco over that and two 
>> sections have been replaced with 8" masonry block.
>> One section is a corner and the other is a four foot section with a 
>> vent.
>> The crawlspace has ~6" - 36" clearance from grade to floor joist, all 
>> above exterior grade.
>>
>> The location is hudson valley ny, on top of a hill with clay soil, NE 
>> exposure.  The soil in the crawlspace appears to remain moist much of 
>> the time, but has not been wet yet and there are no signs of water 
>> damage on wood laying in there.  However, wood that is partially 
>> embedded in the ground is moist but with no signs of fungal or mold 
>> activity.
>>
>> My idea is to spray foam with 1.75 lb tiger foam. (I may just hire 
>> our local spray foam guys to do this, being that they have air supply 
>> masks et al)  Clean up all debris and remove a layer of soil, which 
>> is pitched to the center of the room from all points.  I will then 
>> dig a trench in the center, pour a small footing for a center post, 
>> repost the center support, then lay gravel in the trench and over 
>> cleaned floor, then cover the floor with polyethylene with standard 
>> lapping and sealing details.
>> Based on lack of evidence of water, other than ground moisture, and 
>> the prospect of installing one into a place that I can barely roll 
>> over in when laying prone, I am opting to not put in a sump pump.
>>
>> I will install a 6" round, the kind with a weighted baffel, heated 
>> air supply to the space, with a return.
>>   The basement is loosely connected to the air supply system, there 
>> is one 6" supply and one 8" return down there.  If I return the 
>> crawlspace air to the basement, will I pressurize the basement and 
>> depressurize the living space?  Its an old loose house, with many 
>> places where air moves between floors.  (I imagine the stack effect 
>> is pretty substatial here)
>>
>>
>> I am haveing a bit more trouble planning for the basement insulation.
>>
>> Here I have 8' ceilings, the first four feet is stone, then on top of 
>> that I have brick.  The stone is below exterior grade and the brick 
>> generally starts 6" below grade and goes to 3' above grade.  I was 
>> thinking of repointing the interior where necessary, then spraying
>> 2 lb. foam on the stone (~3") and a thin (3"?) layer of 0.5 lb. on 
>> the brick.
>> .5 lb on the brick because I am concerned with reducing the brick's 
>> drying capability and with it getting too cold during the winter.  My 
>> thought is that if I insulate alot, it will be harder for the brick 
>> to dry and the exterior will get colder during winter and may damage 
>> the brick.
>>
>>
>> My apologies, this email seems to have gotten rather long. Thanks for 
>> reading it and in advance for any advice you may have.
>>
>> Best,
>> Tom Lewis
>>
>>
>> "Time makes more converts than reason."  Thomas Paine, Common Sense
>>
>>
>>         
>>


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