[Greenbuilding] On Insulating Crawlspaces and Basements: BAD FOAM!

[Leslie Moyer]

Keith (or anyone),

Do you know anything about "Foam It Green" as it relates to these issues 
(or others)?  It's a DIY spray foam kit.  They don't have too much info 
on their website....they are a member of the USGBC and "balance" their 
carbon emissions through Terrapass.

On 9/9/07, 11:57 AM, Keith Winston wrote:
> I don't have time to comment on your crawlspace issue, but I will say:
>
> Don't use TigerFoam, HandiFoam, and all other 2-part builder-applied
> foams. Also, don't use contractors who use Dow FrothPak, which is the
> same type of foam but in addition to small builder packages is sometimes
> blown from trucks in large volumes.
>
> All these use refrigerants as blowing agents. They release 7-15 lbs of
> refrigerants  (typically HFC's) for each 600 sf (board foot) package.
> The Global Warming Potential (CO2 equivalency) of these refrigerants is
> around 1500-2000, which means that those (nominal) 10 lbs are equivalent
> to about 7-10 TONS of CO2 release. That will counteract at least the
> majority of your CO2 reductions resulting from better insulating.
>
> I think this is a scandal that needs to be exposed. I have been talking
> about it with many people (including people in the industry), but
> haven't really figured out how to get word out. Until/unless we regulate
> carbon emissions, there are no regulatory tools to apply (the
> manufacturers changed from CFC's and HCFC's as blowing agents to avoid
> Ozone/Montreal Protocol problems).
>
> "Good" PU foams are blown using a proportioner with heated hoses in a
> truck, and water is the blowing agent. Even the little one-part PU foam
> cans from Home Depot, etc, are powered by isobutane or other simple
> hydrocarbons with relatively low GWP.
>
> I am now accepting donations to my legal defense fund ;-)
>
> If I have anything wrong here, I'd love to know. Constituents can be
> (roughly) determined from MSDS sheets for foam products.
>
> Keith
>
>
> Thomas Lewis wrote:
>> Hello All,
>>
>> I just purchased a home and am developing my project
>> list.
>>
>> I would like to pose my plan for insulating the
>> crawlspace and basement for your comment.
>>
>> The crawlspace is ~180ft2 with a dry layed stone
>> foundation of unknown depth and ~2' thick.  It has
>> been worked on over the years.  The exterior is
>> pointed with a layer of stucco over that and two
>> sections have been replaced with 8" masonry block.
>> One section is a corner and the other is a four foot
>> section with a vent.
>> The crawlspace has ~6" - 36" clearance from grade to
>> floor joist, all above exterior grade.
>>
>> The location is hudson valley ny, on top of a hill
>> with clay soil, NE exposure.  The soil in the
>> crawlspace appears to remain moist much of the time,
>> but has not been wet yet and there are no signs of
>> water damage on wood laying in there.  However, wood
>> that is partially embedded in the ground is moist but
>> with no signs of fungal or mold activity.
>>
>> My idea is to spray foam with 1.75 lb tiger foam. (I
>> may just hire our local spray foam guys to do this,
>> being that they have air supply masks et al)  Clean up
>> all debris and remove a layer of soil, which is
>> pitched to the center of the room from all points.  I
>> will then dig a trench in the center, pour a small
>> footing for a center post, repost the center support,
>> then lay gravel in the trench and over cleaned floor,
>> then cover the floor with polyethylene with standard
>> lapping and sealing details.
>> Based on lack of evidence of water, other than ground
>> moisture, and the prospect of installing one into a
>> place that I can barely roll over in when laying
>> prone, I am opting to not put in a sump pump.
>>
>> I will install a 6" round, the kind with a weighted
>> baffel, heated air supply to the space, with a return.
>>   The basement is loosely connected to the air supply
>> system, there is one 6" supply and one 8" return down
>> there.  If I return the crawlspace air to the
>> basement, will I pressurize the basement and
>> depressurize the living space?  Its an old loose
>> house, with many places where air moves between
>> floors.  (I imagine the stack effect is pretty
>> substatial here)
>>
>>
>> I am haveing a bit more trouble planning for the
>> basement insulation.
>>
>> Here I have 8' ceilings, the first four feet is stone,
>> then on top of that I have brick.  The stone is below
>> exterior grade and the brick generally starts 6" below
>> grade and goes to 3' above grade.  I was thinking of
>> repointing the interior where necessary, then spraying
>> 2 lb. foam on the stone (~3") and a thin (3"?) layer
>> of 0.5 lb. on the brick.
>> .5 lb on the brick because I am concerned with
>> reducing the brick's drying capability and with it
>> getting too cold during the winter.  My thought is
>> that if I insulate alot, it will be harder for the
>> brick to dry and the exterior will get colder during
>> winter and may damage the brick.
>>
>>
>> My apologies, this email seems to have gotten rather
>> long. Thanks for reading it and in advance for any
>> advice you may have.
>>
>> Best,
>> Tom Lewis
>>
>>
>> "Time makes more converts than reason."  Thomas Paine, Common Sense
>>
>>
>>         
>>